WISHFUL THINKING: I was wondering - how many if you would've wanted a 5200 "in XEGS clothing"?

[+x=usr(1536)]

11 hours ago, MrFish said:

I'll tell you what I've found out, after attending the 5200 and 8-bit forums for over 18 years now: generally speaking, people who attend the 5200 forums are highly unappreciative of almost any software development. If you take a look at almost any software posted, you'll see the downloads in the hundreds (often 300 - 400 downloads or more), yet paltry few likes and/or comments. I first started to notice this back when I was doing hacks for the 8-bits and following up by applying the hacks to the 5200 versions of the same games. I'd get hundreds of downloads and nearly no likes or comments. After having this happen for several different hacks -- which were quite well-liked by the 8-bit crowd -- I said screw it, and stopped applying the hacks for the 5200. It's not that I don't like seeing the 5200 system get some love, but it's as if 5200 forum participants in general have no interest in supporting any software efforts; and the thing is, it's generally freely done software. Most software efforts aren't done for money here; but crap... gratitude is in the toilet.

 

This is something that I've noticed as well, and have put some thought into over the past couple of years.  What I'm going to say is pretty much just based on personal observation, so take it for what it's worth.

 

The 5200 is a machine that has a poor image, and has had it for practically its entire existence.  If it's not a cut-down 400, it's the console that killed Atari along with 2600 Pac-Man and E.T..  The controllers break and cause sterility in anyone who comes within 50 feet of them.  It's so huge that it will crush your house.  All they're fit for is being cannibalised for POKEYs to repair A8s and arcade games.  And so on and so forth.

 

What this has led to is a very small core following for it.  Sure, there are people who have them and find them interesting in their own right, but we're a tiny minority.  Something seen both here and elsewhere is the person who eventually picks one up after being on the fence about the acquisition for some time (usually in relation to obtaining an A8 instead), fiddles with it for a while, and eventually gives up because it's stupid and it sucks and the controllers don't work and it's just a 400 with no keyboard anyway.  Unsurprisingly, this discourages others from giving them an objective look, and keeps the core following small.

 

With a small core following comes a lot of drive-by downloading: get what you can while you're deciding if you like it or not.  Don't worry about gratitude; your mind's probably already made up that this is a mistake you want to get out of, but you're looking for that one redeeming feature that might - maybe, possibly - salvage the console's purchase for you.  It's not going to, but at least putting in the effort makes you feel better about the controller mylars you bought, installed, and subsequently discovered after the fact that a POKEY adjustment was also needed to calibrate the joysticks properly.

 

Frustration mounts.  Screw it, you'll just go get a 65XE and call it done.  Maybe someone on the forums will want to buy this POS to help offset the cost of replacing it.

 

I can understand this to a point: after all, the 5200 does have its shortcomings and there's no point in pretending to be blind to them.  It is a good machine in its own right, but comparing it to the A8 isn't completely accurate (or fair) since it was never meant to be an A8, just a relative that used some of the A8's hardware.  But 40-plus years of poor public perception are hard to overcome, particularly when the Internet is great at regurgitating others' opinions without having made an effort to see if those opinions may or may not hold water.

 

As an aside to the above, it's a lot easier to respect the opinion of someone who can say, "had one, tried it for a while, decided it wasn't for me and moved on," vs., "OMG THE 5200 SUX NUTZ BCUZ CONTROLLERS AND BIG AND THE CRASH SEE WIKIPEDIA FOR DETAILS KTHXBAI."

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but those opinions are going to translate out into real-world effects.  Unfortunately, they aren't effects that are necessarily beneficial for encouraging ongoing software development specific to the platform.

[miker]

 

Well, shortly...

 

 

Yes, you are.

Edited June 8, 2023 by miker

[BIGHMW]

6 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

This is something that I've noticed as well, and have put some thought into over the past couple of years.  What I'm going to say is pretty much just based on personal observation, so take it for what it's worth.

 

The 5200 is a machine that has a poor image, and has had it for practically its entire existence.  If it's not a cut-down 400, it's the console that killed Atari along with 2600 Pac-Man and E.T..  The controllers break and cause sterility in anyone who comes within 50 feet of them.  It's so huge that it will crush your house.  All they're fit for is being cannibalised for POKEYs to repair A8s and arcade games.  And so on and so forth.

 

What this has led to is a very small core following for it.  Sure, there are people who have them and find them interesting in their own right, but we're a tiny minority.  Something seen both here and elsewhere is the person who eventually picks one up after being on the fence about the acquisition for some time (usually in relation to obtaining an A8 instead), fiddles with it for a while, and eventually gives up because it's stupid and it sucks and the controllers don't work and it's just a 400 with no keyboard anyway.  Unsurprisingly, this discourages others from giving them an objective look, and keeps the core following small.

 

With a small core following comes a lot of drive-by downloading: get what you can while you're deciding if you like it or not.  Don't worry about gratitude; your mind's probably already made up that this is a mistake you want to get out of, but you're looking for that one redeeming feature that might - maybe, possibly - salvage the console's purchase for you.  It's not going to, but at least putting in the effort makes you feel better about the controller mylars you bought, installed, and subsequently discovered after the fact that a POKEY adjustment was also needed to calibrate the joysticks properly.

 

Frustration mounts.  Screw it, you'll just go get a 65XE and call it done.  Maybe someone on the forums will want to buy this POS to help offset the cost of replacing it.

 

I can understand this to a point: after all, the 5200 does have its shortcomings and there's no point in pretending to be blind to them.  It is a good machine in its own right, but comparing it to the A8 isn't completely accurate (or fair) since it was never meant to be an A8, just a relative that used some of the A8's hardware.  But 40-plus years of poor public perception are hard to overcome, particularly when the Internet is great at regurgitating others' opinions without having made an effort to see if those opinions may or may not hold water.

 

As an aside to the above, it's a lot easier to respect the opinion of someone who can say, "had one, tried it for a while, decided it wasn't for me and moved on," vs., "OMG THE 5200 SUX NUTZ BCUZ CONTROLLERS AND BIG AND THE CRASH SEE WIKIPEDIA FOR DETAILS KTHXBAI."

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but those opinions are going to translate out into real-world effects.  Unfortunately, they aren't effects that are necessarily beneficial for encouraging ongoing software development specific to the platform.

Well, for all the 5200 haters out there I have been a Big Sexy player for these past 40 years since getting my first date with her on my 17th Birthday back on May 19th, 1983, and in spite of her (original, since improved on) suspect quality of build, the CX52 analog dual-pot-based joystick/keypad controller with dual-fire buttons is legendary, she can do things in split seconds that might take more time to do on the A8/XL/XE keyboard in certain situations, like hyperspace in Defender, various control systems and thrust speeds in Star Raiders, Selecting plays in RealSports Football, pitches and locations in RealSports Baseball, and kick heights in RealSports (Football, I as a footy purist and a proud Arsenal supporter refuse to use that dreaded "s" word to describe The Beautiful Game), as well as crack the launch codes in Countermeasure, and so many more games also incorporate the keypads capabilities.

 

As for controller options, maybe 40 years ago we would've complained, but now, we have Redemption 5200, we have RetroGameBoyz brilliant lineup of controllers, I and some of us also happen to own those German-imported ProPaddle 2 5200 paddle controllers too that Ralf Puckner came up with years ago that I reviewed on "Ray Jackson Reviews" (Episode 3), we also have various kickstarter Masterplay units available, as well as those from RetroGameBoyz and of course the 1983 original Masterplay from Electra Concepts. Plus, don't forget, as much as I and most of you always want to see more titles be ported over from the A8, there were, originally only 69 titles officially released between 1982-1987, plus there were about 15-20 unreleased titles, many of them finished and completed and some, like Tempest, completed later on, that game, is exclusive to the 5200 and to this day, still has not been ported over to nor has been made for the A8/XL/XE. Plus, no A8/XL/XE can ever play 2600 games as there is no adapter for them like for the 5200.

 

So yes, she may be big, she may only have 16K of RAM, but, she has a lot going for her nowadays compared to her dogdays when she was blamed for the infamous Crash Of 1983, but 40 years later, she at least deserves some respect, maybe that could come on a new 5200-compatible console (with both a cartridge port and an SD card slot), that would be in a different form factor that would allow all of us to relive those grand days of the "third-wave wars" we and ColecoVision owners had (I own both) BITD.

Edited June 9, 2023 by BIGHMW

[christo930]

Not just no, but HELL NO!!!  The comically large wedge shape and texture is part of the charm of the 5200.  AND, it's not pretending to be a computer.

[+MrFish]

11 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

The controllers break and cause sterility in anyone who comes within 50 feet of them.

Oh, ok... so, some money can be saved by those already interested in getting a vasectomy... wasn't aware of that before...

 

11 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

What this has led to is a very small core following for it. 

Yeah, I've always seen it as generally so. Not sure exactly how small. Might be a bit difficult to pin down.

 

11 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Something seen both here and elsewhere is the person who eventually picks one up after being on the fence about the acquisition for some time (usually in relation to obtaining an A8 instead), fiddles with it for a while, and eventually gives up because it's stupid and it sucks and the controllers don't work and it's just a 400 with no keyboard anyway.

Actually, I think a fair number of 8-bit computer owners end up getting one for the similarities and uniqueness of the 5200, being a console, etc.

 

11 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

With a small core following comes a lot of drive-by downloading: get what you can while you're deciding if you like it or not.

Some may be due to that. I've always thought that it had more to do with the lack of new games, thus the crowd that does exist is all over new games.

 

But, either way, the truth is, you don't have to be a 5200 fanatic in order to appreciate the hard work that goes into creating, converting, or hacking software for it. I always at least give a like when anything gets posted, and I don't even own a 5200. So, it has no reciprocal benefit for me, but I just think it's the least a person can do for free software; and I would like to see 5200 development continue -- even if I've basically given up.

How hard is it to leave a like or thank you for a game you've downloaded; and/or -- if you've taken some time to play it -- leave a message of "I liked it" or "i didn't like it" or "i noticed this" or "could you change this". I mean, we're not talking about some big time investment. I think it's the least someone can do for free software, which often takes months to complete. Even if you're not concerned so much about continued development, let's just say for common courtesy. 
 

As far as the system goes, being dogged on and all: it's an easy target. But I personally like it. If I could afford the time (to spend playing it), space, and upkeep, I'd definitely get one. I basically see it as a sibling to the 8-bit computers, which can generally do anything they can (software-wise). I'm also appreciative that the system exists, because Atari put extra effort into the games for it, which ultimately translated into better games for the 8-bit computers -- a number of those coming by way of conversion. So, I think it helped raise the bar on arcade conversions for the ecosystem.

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

2 hours ago, MrFish said:

Actually, I think a fair number of 8-bit computer owners end up getting one for the similarities and uniqueness of the 5200, being a console, etc.

Agreed to a point: they get one, but how much staying power that translates out to for interest in the system in the long run is another question.  Admittedly, it's not a question that there's any sort of solid answer for, but just on the basis of what's seen around here there seems to be a not-huge-but-noticeable amount of 'buy a 5200, fiddle with it for a while, resell' taking place.

3 hours ago, MrFish said:

But, either way, the truth is, you don't have to be a 5200 fanatic in order to appreciate the hard work that goes into creating, converting, or hacking software for it. I always at least give a like when anything gets posted, and I don't even own a 5200. So, it has no reciprocal benefit for me, but I just think it's the least a person can do for free software; and I would like to see 5200 development continue -- even if I've basically given up.

And that I do agree with you on unreservedly.  To my mind, it's cutting one's own throat to not show support or interest in development projects, be they hardware or software.  Even if it's not something that necessarily may be of interest, people putting their time and effort into building things for these systems is what keeps them alive and relevant.  Letting them know that it's good to see their work regardless of personal feelings about the proposed end result at least shows that a) people are paying attention and b) that there is an audience out there, even if the audience isn't necessarily everyone with a console.

3 hours ago, MrFish said:

As far as the system goes, being dogged on and all: it's an easy target. But I personally like it. If I could afford the time (to spend playing it), space, and upkeep, I'd definitely get one. I basically see it as a sibling to the 8-bit computers, which can generally do anything they can (software-wise).

This is a large part of what attracts me to it.  Which leads on to:

3 hours ago, MrFish said:

I'm also appreciative that the system exists, because Atari put extra effort into the games for it, which ultimately translated into better games for the 8-bit computers -- a number of those coming by way of conversion. So, I think it helped raise the bar on arcade conversions for the ecosystem.

For decades, I played the 5200 conversion of Qix on the A8.  In my mind, it is Qix on the A8.  Then, a couple of years ago, I discovered that there was an A8-specific version, also released by Atari - and it was seriously inferior to the one made for the 5200.

 

This is one of the things that fascinates me about the insight into Atari's thinking at the time: having two hardware platforms that are architecturally-similar enough to port between with minimal effort, why bother with writing multiple versions of the same game for essentially the same architecture?  Why not put the superior version out on both platforms and reap the benefits of lower development costs plus showing a stronger software lineup across the range?  It would help with retaining existing customers, attracting new ones, and providing a more cohesive appearance to the company.

 

Admittedly, we know why a lot of that didn't happen and really don't need to rehash it since that'll just end up going down the what-if rabbithole yet again, but it's an interesting machine for a lot of reasons other than the games alone.  It may have been a failure in the marketplace, but that doesn't mean that the system itself was a failure by any means.

[+DrVenkman]

The 5200 has one immensely compelling wow factor going for it over the A8’s, regardless of their under-the-hood similarities: a real, arcade-sized Trak-Ball and games that support it. The CX-53 Trak-Ball is amazing and playing Centipede, Missile Command, Millipede and others with it is just so much more satisfying than using the little CX-22/80 sized Trak-Ball controllers for the A8 (*). 

 

 

(*) Worse, the only A8 title from Atari itself that supported the Trak-Ball natively is Missile Command; you have to rely on later hacks/conversions to get true Trak-Ball support for Centipede or anything else on the computers. And yes, I know you can also use the CX-22/80 models with 2600 and 7800 systems as well, but it’s got the same issue: no games supported it at the time and only in the recent era have hacks and homebrews been written for these systems to take advantage of using them in TB mode instead of as glorified joysticks. 

[leech]

3 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

For decades, I played the 5200 conversion of Qix on the A8.  In my mind, it is Qix on the A8.  Then, a couple of years ago, I discovered that there was an A8-specific version, also released by Atari - and it was seriously inferior to the one made for the 5200.

Is there a list somewhere of games that are on both systems, and the differences between them?  I recently got Qix on the 5200 and played it a bit, and mind you my memory isn't the greatest of it back in the day... but now I'm betting I also played the 5200 port of Qix on the A8, as I didn't recall any differences.  My mother's friend used to play the hell out of that game.  My goto back on the A8 was Joust though

[zzip]

3 minutes ago, leech said:

Is there a list somewhere of games that are on both systems, and the differences between them?  I recently got Qix on the 5200 and played it a bit, and mind you my memory isn't the greatest of it back in the day... but now I'm betting I also played the 5200 port of Qix on the A8, as I didn't recall any differences.  My mother's friend used to play the hell out of that game.  My goto back on the A8 was Joust though

The 5200 version of QIX is more true to the arcade, has the Qix logo,  I think it uses two buttons like the arcade

The 8-bit version runs in a higher resolution, fills more of the screen and is a little less true to the arcade.   Since the joystick has one button, pressing it gives "slow draw" but you can get "fast draw" without pressing a button

 

Honestly though the A8 version plays fine in my opinion,  we played a lot of it, even my father who hated videogames like to play it!

[leech]

1 minute ago, zzip said:

The 5200 version of QIX is more true to the arcade, has the Qix logo,  I think it uses two buttons like the arcade

The 8-bit version runs in a higher resolution, fills more of the screen and is a little less true to the arcade.   Since the joystick has one button, pressing it gives "slow draw" but you can get "fast draw" without pressing a button

 

Honestly though the A8 version plays fine in my opinion,  we played a lot of it, even my father who hated videogames like to play it!

Ah, yes.  That makes sense as when I was playing the 5200 version, I thought it seemed blockier than I remembered.  Granted I was also playing it on a 55" plasma TV, so thought that had something to do with it... reminds me, I should play more Adventure II and Berserk...

[phuzaxeman]

20 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

 

 

The 5200 is a machine that has a poor image, and has had it for practically its entire existence.  

 

 

I don't agree with this.  The 5200 when it came out was cutting edge in 1982. The 5200 and Colecovision were kings of the new consoles in that era and were better than the 2600, Intellivision, Astrocade, and Magnavox Odyssey 2 that was still selling at stores.  

 

The image of the new cool Super System console was present even in the advertising.

 

 

If you look at sales per year (about 1 million in 2 years), the 5200 did better than Atari 8bit, Jaguar, 7800, and Lynx.  So any console released after the 2600 was considered a failure. It's unfortunate the 5200 didn't get the proper backup from Atari. If you looked at magazine ads, the 2600 mostly shared ads with the 5200.  The better graphics and sound wasn't enough for many to make the jump to a newer system. 

 

If Atari would have concentrated on 3rd party support (which has been the problem with every Atari console not named 2600) and unique titles like Countermeasure and Space Dungeon, plus started a pack in game like Defender or PacMan, the 5200 would have lasted longer.

 

But it's all hindsight because the NES changed the market and even Colecovision was discontinued. To me the non-existing images 7800 and joke of 64bit Jaguar was worse than the 5200. 

 

The XE game system was 70s technology in 87. That was the whole problem with Atari back then. 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by phuzaxeman

[+x=usr(1536)]

6 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

I don't agree with this.  The 5200 when it came out was cutting edge in 1982. The 5200 and Colecovision were kings of the new consoles in that era and were better than the 2600, Intellivision, Astrocade, and Magnavox Odyssey 2 that was still selling at stores.  

On a purely technical level: I agree with you.  But, public opinion being what it was, the machine quickly gathered baggage.  Whether or not that baggage was justified is another matter, but the momentum was there and carried on through to the end of its life and beyond.

8 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

It's unfortunate the 5200 didn't get the proper backup from Atari.

True; it had a lot of unrealised potential.  Thing is, that doesn't change what 40 years of history have saddled it with.

[phuzaxeman]

1 minute ago, x=usr(1536) said:

On a purely technical level: I agree with you.  But, public opinion being what it was, the machine quickly gathered baggage.  Whether or not that baggage was justified is another matter, but the momentum was there and carried on through to the end of its life and beyond.

True; it had a lot of unrealised potential.  Thing is, that doesn't change what 40 years of history have saddled it with.

Here's the thing, I had practically every video game magazine from 82-84. The 5200 coverage was overall positive.  Even the controller issues was not an issue in many of the reviews. I had 4 friends to trade 5200 carts (Eric, Brian, Jeff, and Steve) and we all thought the 5200 was $hit back then.

 

The baggage was much later (as apparent in the youtube video hate).  If you want to talk about "baggage" the Jaguar was a real mess in its release.  Atari did so many things wrong in their release of new consoles.

 

I feel the launch of the Lynx was actually good but the Gameboy was just lighter, cheaper, better battery life, and had Mario. The lynx was great but too costly.

 

I've owed every Atari console in its release date and the 5200 hate is one of the most exaggerated since the release.  

[Flyindrew]

You also have to be of a certain age demographic to truly appreciate the 5200. Im sure the majority of us were either pre-teens or teenagers back in '82/83 when the system came out. We remember going to the mall arcade, wishing we could play those same arcade games, with arcade quality at home. We also grew up during the first generation of home consoles and probably thought the 5200 was a fantastic marvel when we first saw it, along with its controllers. I can speak for myself that these nostalgia factors is why I love the 5200.

For someone who did not grow up in this era, came of age maybe in the 1990's or 2000's , does not have the same frame of reference and appreciation we have, and views the 5200 only at face value, I can see them look at it  like a "piece of junk".

[phuzaxeman]

4 minutes ago, Flyindrew said:

You also have to be of a certain age demographic to truly appreciate the 5200. Im sure the majority of us were either pre-teens or teenagers back in '82/83 when the system came out. We remember going to the mall arcade, wishing we could play those same arcade games, with arcade quality at home. We also grew up during the first generation of home consoles and probably thought the 5200 was a fantastic marvel when we first saw it, along with its controllers. I can speak for myself that these nostalgia factors is why I love the 5200.

For someone who did not grow up in this era, came of age maybe in the 1990's or 2000's , does not have the same frame of reference and appreciation we have, and views the 5200 only at face value, I can see them look at it  like a "piece of junk".

This post is spot on. To see 5200 Centipede in 82 was an amazing experience to witness.  A lot of the hate comes from people that were not in that time.  

 

I had the 7800 in 87 and the NES and Sega was already out.  The Atari brand was already fading and a new breed of gaming was already evolving. 

Edited June 9, 2023 by phuzaxeman

[Flyindrew]

1 minute ago, phuzaxeman said:

This post is spot on. To see 5200 Centipede in 82 was an amazing experience to witness.  A lot of the hate comes from people that were not in that time.  

 

 

Exactly! When I play 5200 Centipede, Pac Man or Moon Patrol, my mind goes back to that 82/83 arcade, as well as owning an inferior 2600 and so appreciating my 5200. That nostalgic frame of reference so enhances my enjoyment. My family member, who came of age in the late 1990's Playstation era, just gives me a blank stare when I show him to him about the 5200. 

[zzip]

1 hour ago, phuzaxeman said:

I don't agree with this.  The 5200 when it came out was cutting edge in 1982. The 5200 and Colecovision were kings of the new consoles in that era and were better than the 2600, Intellivision, Astrocade, and Magnavox Odyssey 2 that was still selling at stores. 

Yeah my memory of the time they came out was both the 5200 and Colecovision had a "Wow factor" around them,  both promised to finally delivier arcade-quality graphics at home.   

 

1 hour ago, phuzaxeman said:

If Atari would have concentrated on 3rd party support (which has been the problem with every Atari console not named 2600) and unique titles like Countermeasure and Space Dungeon, plus started a pack in game like Defender or PacMan, the 5200 would have lasted longer.

 

I don't even think the Pack-in was the problem, it was that most of the library was a duplicate of the 2600 library at first.  Maybe we kids wanted the new consoles now, but the parents who have to spend the money are much more likely to delay the purchase of a new console until some must-have games arrive-  they also don't like having to rebuy their entire library either    So I think there were a lot of people interested in the 5200 that put off the purchase until it was more compelling.    I also think the Atari/Lucasfilm partnership that was developing Fractalus and Ballblazer was the kind of thing that was needed sooner.   Both of those games were supposed to arrive on 5200 in '84 and would have brought something unique and not just more arcade ports which people were fast losing interest in at the time.

 

[phuzaxeman]

7 minutes ago, zzip said:

Yeah my memory of the time they came out was both the 5200 and Colecovision had a "Wow factor" around them,  both promised to finally delivier arcade-quality graphics at home.   

 

I don't even think the Pack-in was the problem, it was that most of the library was a duplicate of the 2600 library at first.  Maybe we kids wanted the new consoles now, but the parents who have to spend the money are much more likely to delay the purchase of a new console until some must-have games arrive-  they also don't like having to rebuy their entire library either    So I think there were a lot of people interested in the 5200 that put off the purchase until it was more compelling.    I also think the Atari/Lucasfilm partnership that was developing Fractalus and Ballblazer was the kind of thing that was needed sooner.   Both of those games were supposed to arrive on 5200 in '84 and would have brought something unique and not just more arcade ports which people were fast losing interest in at the time.

 

Those are good points. By the time Fractulus and Ballblazer were out, I had already made the 8bit switch. The duplicate 2600 library was a huge problem.  Atari didn't learn and still did that on the 7800 despite other titles. 

 

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

5 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

Here's the thing, I had practically every video game magazine from 82-84. The 5200 coverage was overall positive.

Which is true.  The system was generally seen as a pretty significant step forward; there's no denying that.

5 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

The baggage was much later (as apparent in the youtube video hate).

While I don't disagree with you on that, please remember what I said originally:

On 6/8/2023 at 3:21 PM, x=usr(1536) said:

The 5200 is a machine that has a poor image, and has had it for practically its entire existence.

Note the emphasis on 'practically'.  We're 40 (almost 41) years removed from its launch, and the poor image has been largely gathered post-discontinuation of the machine.  No implication was made that it was launched and immediately disliked, but, as we've both seen, opinion - favourable or otherwise - loves to propagate itself unchecked.  That's the situation the machine finds itself in, rightly or wrongly.

 

Nobody's attacking the machine here, least of all me - if I were, it'd be incredibly hypocritical of me to do so seeing as how I own two of them and have one plus peripherals that I enjoy using routinely.

[phuzaxeman]

31 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Which is true.  The system was generally seen as a pretty significant step forward; there's no denying that.

While I don't disagree with you on that, please remember what I said originally:

Note the emphasis on 'practically'.  We're 40 (almost 41) years removed from its launch, and the poor image has been largely gathered post-discontinuation of the machine.  No implication was made that it was launched and immediately disliked, but, as we've both seen, opinion - favourable or otherwise - loves to propagate itself unchecked.  That's the situation the machine finds itself in, rightly or wrongly.

 

Nobody's attacking the machine here, least of all me - if I were, it'd be incredibly hypocritical of me to do so seeing as how I own two of them and have one plus peripherals that I enjoy using routinely.

I think the image of the 5200 is changing for the better. You can see it on the more positive reviews on YouTube. I've been reading more posts and support of the 5200 since there are more joystick options and homebrews like Tempest and Intellidiscs. 

[+x=usr(1536)]

52 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

I think the image of the 5200 is changing for the better. You can see it on the more positive reviews on YouTube. I've been reading more posts and support of the 5200 since there are more joystick options and homebrews like Tempest and Intellidiscs. 

Agreed; interest does seem to be picking up somewhat.  Circling back to the point that originally started this tangent, though, it doesn't really seem to be translating out into expanding the core group of enthusiasts for it - or, at least, not in a way that visibly demonstrates that growth if it is happening.

 

Being completely straightforward, though, I doubt we'll ever see a sizeable revival of interest in the 5200, let alone one similar to that of the 7800.  That's not to condemn the machine, but rather to say that there's a lot of inertia that has to be overcome in order to make it an attractive platform for development and/or porting.  The points raised by @pirx and @MrFish earlier in the thread pretty much detail why I feel this is going to remain the case, but we'll see what happens.  There certainly has been development for it, so maybe it's just a case of the right killer app releasing to the right audience at the right time.

[phuzaxeman]

15 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Agreed; interest does seem to be picking up somewhat.  Circling back to the point that originally started this tangent, though, it doesn't really seem to be translating out into expanding the core group of enthusiasts for it - or, at least, not in a way that visibly demonstrates that growth if it is happening.

 

Being completely straightforward, though, I doubt we'll ever see a sizeable revival of interest in the 5200, let alone one similar to that of the 7800.  That's not to condemn the machine, but rather to say that there's a lot of inertia that has to be overcome in order to make it an attractive platform for development and/or porting.  The points raised by @pirx and @MrFish earlier in the thread pretty much detail why I feel this is going to remain the case, but we'll see what happens.  There certainly has been development for it, so maybe it's just a case of the right killer app releasing to the right audience at the right time.

Yeah, the improved reputation and future development are two different situations although they are related.

 

I'm actually happy where the 5200 is today. I'd like it to be like the lynx but there are a lot of great titles.

[christo930]

13 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

If you look at sales per year (about 1 million in 2 years), the 5200 did better than Atari 8bit, Jaguar, 7800, and Lynx.

 

I think cost played a major role  They should have done a lot to cost reduce it before releasing it and trying to get it down to 179 with the Colecovision. Just the physical size alone, not to mention shipping costs from Asia in those giant boxes probably added significantly to the cost.  The complexity of the terrible joysticks probably made them pretty expensive to produce.

 

The put a large premium on the 5200 and then re-relased a bunch of old games ported from the 8-bit line..  The software library is good in the sense that they are known commodities and some are decent ports, but they weren't new and exciting.  Most people just didn't want to spend the extra money to get the better graphics and sound. But that was at nearly 300 Dollars. At 179, lots of people plopped that down to get a Colecovision.

 

There was also a major recession at the time with nearly 11% unemployment. Most of us were kids at the time and so recessions really didn't exist for us.  People tend to put off something like a game console when economic times are bad. 82 was the worst year since the great depression, at least as far as unemployment goes.

[phuzaxeman]

3 hours ago, christo930 said:

 

I think cost played a major role  They should have done a lot to cost reduce it before releasing it and trying to get it down to 179 with the Colecovision. Just the physical size alone, not to mention shipping costs from Asia in those giant boxes probably added significantly to the cost.  

The 5200 shared Atari 400/800 hardware from the late 70s so the cost were lower.  I believe the 5200 was made in California. 

3 hours ago, christo930 said:

Most people just didn't want to spend the extra money to get the better graphics and sound. But that was at nearly 300 Dollars. At 179, lots of people plopped that down to get a Colecovision.

At the end of the day, Colecovision sold more than the 5200 but Coleco only sold 2-3 million consoles from 82-85. The 5200 sold about 1 million in two years.

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by phuzaxeman

[BIGHMW]

15 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

I think the image of the 5200 is changing for the better. You can see it on the more positive reviews on YouTube. I've been reading more posts and support of the 5200 since there are more joystick options and homebrews like Tempest and Intellidiscs. 

....and then of course, there is always me, with my little-known series known better as "The Atari 5200 SuperReport", and soon, "ColecoVision EXTRA!"

 

 

...and an all-new opening graphics presentation in which will debut in October with our season premiere starting our second season!!!

 

 

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by BIGHMW