The difference between Genesis and 2600 hacks

[insertclevernamehere]

Now I'm no programmer and I don't want to get anyone's back up but it seems to me, many of these Atari 2600 hacks are a bit of a waste of time.  Graphical changes but essentially exactly the same gameplay as the original game it's a hack of.  
 

This is very different to what seems to be the focus of Genesis game hacks, which are gameplay improvements.  Now those are worthwhile and make an unfair or broken game a lot more enjoyable.  
 

Where are those for the many 2600 games that could easily do with better controls, better hit detection etc?  Like a polished, improved Buck Rogers Planet of Zoom, slower speed progression for Solar Storm, an improved control scheme for the bonus screen on Moonsweeper?

 

I know ET has been improved but there's so many other 2600 games that could do with the same treatment.  I'd much rather play those than a million different graphical hacks of Pitfall.

Edited June 10, 2023 by insertclevernamehere

[MrTrust]

You may not want to get anyone's back up, but you likely will, and I don't particularly blame in this case.

 

One, it is not the case that there aren't many 2600 gameplay hacks.  Crying out loud; there's a whole series in the store of track ball hacks, to name just several examples right there.  Two, the 2600 isn't the Genesis; there are different technical issues involved with overhauling all the levels, say.  Third, if you're not contributing with something of your own, why are you complaining?  These are free toys that someone is giving to you; why should they feel compelled to make them to your custom specifications?  Having a slowed down Solar Fox is so important to you, maybe you could ask for help on the programming forums in going about doing it yourself.

[insertclevernamehere]

19 minutes ago, MrTrust said:

You may not want to get anyone's back up, but you likely will, and I don't particularly blame in this case.

 

One, it is not the case that there aren't many 2600 gameplay hacks.  Crying out loud; there's a whole series in the store of track ball hacks, to name just several examples right there.  Two, the 2600 isn't the Genesis; there are different technical issues involved with overhauling all the levels, say.  Third, if you're not contributing with something of your own, why are you complaining?  These are free toys that someone is giving to you; why should they feel compelled to make them to your custom specifications?  Having a slowed down Solar Fox is so important to you, maybe you could ask for help on the programming forums in going about doing it yourself.

Nonsense!  I demand the finest hacks known to humanity and I want them now!😩😤😁

[MrTrust]

2 hours ago, insertclevernamehere said:

Nonsense!  I demand the finest hacks known to humanity and I want them now!😩😤😁

 

Ha.  Well, can't argue with that.  Some of these things you mentioned would make good projects to learn on, though.

[Asaki]

On 6/10/2023 at 3:56 PM, insertclevernamehere said:

Graphical changes but essentially exactly the same gameplay as the original game it's a hack of.

...so kind of like the hundreds of graphics hacks for Streets of Rage?

[insertclevernamehere]

8 hours ago, Asaki said:

...so kind of like the hundreds of graphics hacks for Streets of Rage?

Cherry picking?

[Asaki]

Not at all.

[LatchKeyKid]

On 6/10/2023 at 3:56 PM, insertclevernamehere said:

Now I'm no programmer and I don't want to get anyone's back up but it seems to me, many of these Atari 2600 hacks are a bit of a waste of time.  Graphical changes but essentially exactly the same gameplay as the original game it's a hack of.  
 

This is very different to what seems to be the focus of Genesis game hacks, which are gameplay improvements.  Now those are worthwhile and make an unfair or broken game a lot more enjoyable.  
 

Where are those for the many 2600 games that could easily do with better controls, better hit detection etc?  Like a polished, improved Buck Rogers Planet of Zoom, slower speed progression for Solar Storm, an improved control scheme for the bonus screen on Moonsweeper?

 

I know ET has been improved but there's so many other 2600 games that could do with the same treatment.  I'd much rather play those than a million different graphical hacks of Pitfall.

You're not wrong in that most are minor tweaks.  There is a reason the retro Atari awards got rid of their hack category as alot of the stuff is very similar but there are mutliple reasons for it both personal and technical.  While some very knowledgeable programmers have hacks under their belt most were many years ago during the start of their retro fandom and most new hacks are tweaks of existing games by folks with a more limited knowledge base (like myself).  I started with a hack (linked in my sig) because it was something I could do while dipping my toes into the retro scene (especially with a fully annotated game like Pitfall).  I suspect that most more knowledgeable programmers who CAN program entire games from scratch do just that because they don't see the point in trying to patch an existing game instead of just make your own from scratch if you know how.  When the ROM size for a complete game is 10-100x the size, it becomes more practical for many even with the knowledge to instead tweak 5-10% of an existing game than to do it all from scratch.  I have several ideas for new games, for example, but I haven't progressed in my personal programming knowledge to do anything more than character and map design as well as general pre-production concepts so that's it for me at the moment.  Unless I finally get around to starting my own worthless waste of time River Raid graphical hack...  

 

The second big reason is technical limitations.  With my Pitfall hack for example, I did actually incorporate more changes with variant AI behavior as well as add sound... but literally each line I added to the code meant that one had to be taken OUT in order to fit into the original 4k ROM size after I used up the couple that were listed as superfluous/unused in the annotations.  There were changes I wanted to add but simply couldn't without adding an entire ROM bank and doubling the size.  I don't think there is any real "stigma" to ROM size in the 3rd console gen and up but with the Atari specifically there is something to be said for staying within the original limitations of the console (4k ROM, 128 bytes RAM).  Additionally, many games are already CPU limited using up most every clock cycle as is and adding more logic just isn't possible without either resorting to new hardware/software (see above for feelings of some regarding going beyond the base hardware).  I suppose you could accomplish more changes outside the graphics kernel with a switch to 30fps but I can't think of any hack or even homebrew game that chose that route of the top of my head.

 

I hope that helps in explaining why so many hacks are so similar from the perspective of a still n00b with only one under my belt.

Edited June 14, 2023 by LatchKeyKid

[insertclevernamehere]

25 minutes ago, LatchKeyKid said:

You're not wrong in that most are minor tweaks.  There is a reason the retro Atari awards got rid of their hack category as alot of the stuff is very similar but there are mutliple reasons for it both personal and technical.  While some very knowledgeable programmers have hacks under their belt most were many years ago during the start of their retro fandom and most new hacks are tweaks of existing games by folks with a more limited knowledge base (like myself).  I started with a hack (linked in my sig) because it was something I could do while dipping my toes into the retro scene (especially with a fully annotated game like Pitfall).  I suspect that most more knowledgeable programmers who CAN program entire games from scratch do just that because they don't see the point in trying to patch an existing game instead of just make your own from scratch if you know how.  When the ROM size for a complete game is 10-100x the size, it becomes more practical for many even with the knowledge to instead tweak 5-10% of an existing game than to do it all from scratch.  I have several ideas for new games, for example, but I haven't progressed in my personal programming knowledge to do anything more than character and map design as well as general pre-production concepts so that's it for me at the moment.  Unless I finally get around to starting my own worthless waste of time River Raid graphical hack...  

 

The second big reason is technical limitations.  With my Pitfall hack for example, I did actually incorporate more changes with variant AI behavior as well as add sound... but literally each line I added to the code meant that one had to be taken OUT in order to fit into the original 4k ROM size after I used up the couple that were listed as superfluous/unused in the annotations.  There were changes I wanted to add but simply couldn't without adding an entire ROM bank and doubling the size.  I don't think there is any real "stigma" to ROM size in the 3rd console gen and up but with the Atari specifically there is something to be said for staying within the original limitations of the console (4k ROM, 128 bytes RAM).  Additionally, many games are already CPU limited using up most every clock cycle as is and adding more logic just isn't possible without either resorting to new hardware/software (see above for feelings of some regarding going beyond the base hardware).  I suppose you could accomplish more changes outside the graphics kernel with a switch to 30fps but I can't think of any hack or even homebrew game that chose that route of the top of my head.

 

I hope that helps in explaining why so many hacks are so similar from the perspective of a still n00b with only one under my belt.

Many thanks for your thoughtful and considered response.  After all, unlike the perception of other respondents, I wasn't making demands.  I just wanted to understand why and perhaps gently nudge people into hopefully fixing 2600 games that I and many others perceive as needing it.  
 

I know there are SOME very good game fixing hacks for 2600 games such as the speed hack for Dark Chambers and the driving controller version of Sprint Master.  But the very existence of some "fixed" games makes me realize that any games can be and so it fuels my imagination of the what if possibilities.  What if the bonus stage on Solar Storm (misremembered as being on Moonsweeper in my original comment) had 360°, multiple positions for firing instead of just four for example?  That and the game really needs to be slowed down a bit and not get so fast so quickly.  Solar Storm could be up there with the best Imagic games with those tweeks in my opinion.  That games just cries out to be improved.  Maybe one day.

 

Anyway I was just putting it out there and trying to be as light hearted about it as possible.  Nobody needs to get pee'd and all defensive by comments from little old me.  Just be cool about it like LatchKeyKid.

[+Gemintronic]

On more modern systems it's easier to swap assets and find unused RAM+ROM.  On the 2600 every game has its own particular way of drawing the screen, loading data and generating sound.  2600 developers used scary techniques to optimize sections of code.  Changing one thing may literally mean re-writing ten other things to make it fit.

 

So, some hacks may appear to only be targeting low hanging fruit.  But, most of us have no idea how hard it was to change anything.

[LatchKeyKid]

1 hour ago, Gemintronic said:

So, some hacks may appear to only be targeting low hanging fruit.  But, most of us have no idea how hard it was to change anything.

In my case, that was definitely true.  There is no way that I'd have been able to do the hack without a fully annotated disassembly of the game already done decades ago so that was the first person I thanked.   With no 6502 coding knowledge starting out and only a couple of months in the retro scene at that point, I'd only have been able to swap out some sprites via a hex editor otherwise.