Atari Mr Run and Jump

[+splendidnut]

1 hour ago, MrTrust said:

Nobody's "blaming" bB for anything here.  I said explicitly at length that there's nothing wrong with bB, but it does have limitations and can't do what the top-shelf programmers are able to do on the 2600 these days.  It just can't.

Actually... it can.  Just requires a bit of extra effort to accomplish.

[+jeremiahjt]

59 minutes ago, MrTrust said:

Jeremiah apparently didn't even look at before stepping in to defend the game, because apparently it doesn't matter what it is as long as it makes Atari money.

My entire defense of this is based on the ridiculousness of "Atari did not mention homebrews in their completely truthful, yet somehow also deceitful announcement."  Quite frankly, if I was at Atari and in charge of this announcement, I would have also hyped the first 2600 release by Atari in more than three decades.  They would be fools to treat this like another release.  This, to my knowledge, is the first brand new game, as in never released before, a company named Atari has released for the 2600 on a physical cartridge since the retail life of the 2600.  Anybody in public relations worth anything would hype that up.  This is the only first cartridge release since 1990 they will have, it would be public relations malpractice to not take advantage of that.  And considering Atari worded it so that homebrews could not be included it this "official" release disclaimer, I think they did a pretty good job of it.

 

I finally saw video of the game, and the flicker looked bad, but overall I think the game looks fine.  I will probably not buy it, but I may buy the modern version on the VCS.  I have not bought any of the Atari XP releases, but I believe every one of them has sold out, so somebody must be buying them.

[MrTrust]

4 hours ago, 4ever2600 said:

Can we just support and enjoy it for what it is?

 

Go ahead.  Nobody's stopping you.

 

4 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Speaking purely as a potential customer: if this game was a $5 ROM download, I'd probably grab a copy just to check it out.  First 2600 release in a while from a company calling itself Atari?  Sure, why not.

 

I'd even say $5 is a little low provided I get a real ROM that I can play on actual hardware.  I don't mind "overpaying" for new 2600 stuff if the value proposition is at least reasonable.

 

3 hours ago, splendidnut said:

Actually... it can.  Just requires a bit of extra effort to accomplish.

 

That extra effort is going to involve writing large chunks of ASM within in your bB program, is it not?

 

3 hours ago, jeremiahjt said:

I will probably not buy it, but I may buy the modern version on the VCS. 

 

Oh, I'm definitely going to get that version unless they charge a stupid high price for it.  Looks very nice.

[+x=usr(1536)]

19 hours ago, MrTrust said:

I'd even say $5 is a little low provided I get a real ROM that I can play on actual hardware.

Actually, I agree that it's a low value.  To be honest, the $5 price was chosen simply because it strikes me as being the most feasible low-end number for a ROM delivered as a download that isn't on sale, bundled at a lower price with something else, etc.  $10 seems like a more realistic base.  More:

19 hours ago, MrTrust said:

I don't mind "overpaying" for new 2600 stuff if the value proposition is at least reasonable.

And that's the thing: the value proposition.

 

Looking at Champ Games' store (the first example that came to mind), they have games available for download from $10 to $20.  These are high-quality, well-regarded titles that in some cases are considered to be amongst the most impressive on the 2600.  They're also far from the only ones releasing astounding software for the system, and at reasonable price points for what you receive.

 

This is where Mr. Run and Jump falls short even at $10.  Picking it up at that price, though, while I wouldn't feel like I'd overspent, I'd also be aware of the fact that I could've had Conquest of Mars for the same money - or, on the 7800 side (sort of), Rikki and Vikki on Steam.  OK, those aren't the first 2600 release from Atari, SA since last Tuesday or whenever the previous one was before this, but I'm failing to see where the happiness in spending the extra $40-$50 for their title is.

 

Maybe there are people out there who can find $50 of entertainment from plugging in and unplugging a cartridge from the system.  I'm not one of them.

[+jeremiahjt]

26 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Maybe there are people out there who can find $50 of entertainment from plugging in and unplugging a cartridge from the system.  I'm not one of them.

I would bet that most people that would buy a game like this take in to consideration the collecting aspect. They may feel that the ROM in the cartridge is worth only $10, but everything else, even if more expensive than similar products found elsewhere, is worth enough to make up for the difference. Add in the fear of missing out since the production might be one time and low, and you will probably have enough to sell out.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

8 hours ago, splendidnut said:

Actually... it can.  Just requires a bit of extra effort to accomplish.

Only if you compare apples (DPC+) with oranges (6507 only).

[roots.genoa]

17 hours ago, zzip said:

Yeah, journalists misreport things,  no shock there.

Fortunately for most of you, you won't understand a word of what this French journalist is saying about Nintendo, but the thing is so embarrassing I couldn't stomach watching it entirely (and it's quite short). I stopped as soon as he explains that Gunpei Yokoi invented arcade cabinets. 🙂

 

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

4 hours ago, jeremiahjt said:

I would bet that most people that would buy a game like this take in to consideration the collecting aspect.

Which is a good point, and I don't want to give the impression that I was ignoring that aspect as it relates to the game.  It certainly wasn't my intention to do so, though I also deliberately wasn't addressing it head-on.

 

Where it gets tricky is that once we get into talking collecting, we're at the point where cost, price, value, and worth all come into their own and each is going to be determined by some very subjective - and personal - criteria.  In effect, 'one man's trash is another man's treasure' begins to apply, and this makes it difficult to uniformly quantify those aspects as they apply to purchasing and/or ownership.

4 hours ago, jeremiahjt said:

They may feel that the ROM in the cartridge is worth only $10, but everything else, even if more expensive than similar products found elsewhere, is worth enough to make up for the difference. Add in the fear of missing out since the production might be one time and low, and you will probably have enough to sell out.

Sure, and I can understand buying it simply because you want it; we've all done (and do) it.  But that's still a subjective decision in the same way as saying, "from what I've seen of the game so far, I don't think it's worth $60," is.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

If have seen collectible "games" which where not much more than a "sealed brick" ((C) @Nathan Strum). And they were overpriced too. While technically lacking, this game seems to offer at least some gameplay. So I won't blame Atari for the price.

 

I only blame them for insinuating that there is no alive and kicking homebrew scene for over 20 years.

[+splendidnut]

7 hours ago, MrTrust said:

That extra effort is going to involve writing large chunks of ASM within in your bB program, is it not?

Write chunks of ASM? Yes.  Write LARGE chunks?  Depends on the situation.

 

My point is, bBasic isn't stopping the programmer from doing it.  That's on the programmer.

[+splendidnut]

3 hours ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

Only if you compare apples (DPC+) with oranges (6507 only).

Not necessarily.  There is the relatively unused use-case of:  the user can modify the bBasic kernels to better suit the game they're trying to make.  And yes, that would require assembly language knowledge to do.

 

---

 

And yes, I'm pushing on the bBasic side of the argument a bit.  Mostly because I feel people are using it as a crutch in their arguments.  "Low quality, must be bBasic" is very much played out at this point.  "Low quality" comes from the developer, not the tool.

[+splendidnut]

Once you get past the issues of the wording, One of the main arguments here seems to be that people are upset at the mediocre quality of this "New official Atari 2600 game from Atari".  Completely understandable, and I agree with that to an extent.  We don't have all the information yet.  But, ultimately, I don't think we can really expect anything of much greater value from the shadow of a former company and the bizarre conglomerate it seems to be right now.  We can WANT more from them, but I don't think we're going to get it.

 

The developer has done quite a bit of tweeting and some live streams talking about some of the game design aspects...of the modern release.  Cool and interesting stuff, but I don't really see anything about the Atari 2600 release.  The modern version seems to be the main focus.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

6 minutes ago, splendidnut said:

Not necessarily.  There is the relatively unused use-case of:  the user can modify the bBasic kernels to better suit the game they're trying to make.  And yes, that would require assembly language knowledge to do.

Which then increases the effort. And this game here doesn't look like bBasic with Assembly mixed in.

6 minutes ago, splendidnut said:

"Low quality" comes from the developer, not the tool.

Very true. 

[MrTrust]

8 hours ago, jeremiahjt said:

I would bet that most people that would buy a game like this take in to consideration the collecting aspect. They may feel that the ROM in the cartridge is worth only $10, but everything else, even if more expensive than similar products found elsewhere, is worth enough to make up for the difference. Add in the fear of missing out since the production might be one time and low, and you will probably have enough to sell out.

 

That's exactly what's going on here, and in my view, it's a carny scam.  Okay, so it's less nowhere near as egregious as $75 for a game that's been on every Flashback, and that ships with the board in backwards, $100 (!!!) for a speaker hat, but it's all of a piece.

 

1 hour ago, splendidnut said:

And yes, I'm pushing on the bBasic side of the argument a bit.  Mostly because I feel people are using it as a crutch in their arguments.  "Low quality, must be bBasic" is very much played out at this point.  "Low quality" comes from the developer, not the tool.

 

It's not "low quality = bB"; this literally looks like the standard bB kernel.  If it's not; it's not.  That's not really the relevant issue.  This appears to be the work of a rank novice 2600 programmer.  The reason I say that is because I'm a rank novice programmer, and even I can see that there are places where he's flickering the spikes and shouldn't have had to, not even on the standard bB kernel.

 

There's a big difference between a rank novice putting a game like that up on the internet, or even in the AA store, and The Official Atari putting it out as a premium product.  

 

1 hour ago, splendidnut said:

Once you get past the issues of the wording, One of the main arguments here seems to be that people are upset at the mediocre quality of this "New official Atari 2600 game from Atari".  Completely understandable, and I agree with that to an extent.  We don't have all the information yet.  But, ultimately, I don't think we can really expect anything of much greater value from the shadow of a former company and the bizarre conglomerate it seems to be right now.  We can WANT more from them, but I don't think we're going to get it.

 

It may not be the current regime's fault that the company called Atari has engendered all the ill will it has, but nevertheless, that has happened.  They seem, now, to think their money is to be made in leveraging their old catalog rather than all these cockamamie hotel schemes or whatever.  Fine, and all well and good; for the most part, they've done a pretty good job of that in recent years.  However, they're not to be trusted given all the ridiculousness that's taken place with them and still continues to take place.  Again, the shoddy replica cartridges for a king's ransom.

 

I'm not particularly impressed that Atari is bringing new games to the 2600.  We don't need a Atari to bring new games to the 2600.  Haven't for years.  As far as I'm concerned, if they want to be welcomed into the "space", they're the ones with something to prove.  Audacity, for all their foibles, delivered a game worth having on the 2600.  I bought their first one, and I will almost certainly buy their next one if it ever happens.

 

Atari could have gotten me on board with this if they'd gotten a known dev with 2600 chops to program their momentous return to the system or whatever.  If they'd hired you to make a new 2600 game, I would probably buy that, even at $60.  They didn't do that; they did this.

 

I can't expect any more from them?  Fine.  They can't expect my money.  They can't expect that, when the subject comes up on a discussion forum, that they're going to receive unanimous praise.  I'm not a charity either, and even if I were, there are a whole lot of homebrew devs I'd patronize over Atari SA.

[+x=usr(1536)]

27 minutes ago, MrTrust said:

There's a big difference between a rank novice putting a game like that up on the internet, or even in the AA store, and The Official Atari putting it out as a premium product.

One thought that has crossed my mind is that someone at Atari may very well have thought that a game of this quality represents The Real BITD Experience™.  To some extent, they're not wrong - but that disregards 45 years of development on the platform.  What I am wondering is if they're also looking to set the expectation that this is the quality of software we can expect from them in the future.  If so, my wallet remains closed.

 

This is a game that looks like it could be enjoyable, but that has rough edges that don't justify its price point.  That's all it comes down to in the end.  Note that that's not to give the programmer a hard time: the simple fact that he wrote a game for the system is appreciated.  Pricing was likely out of his hands, so this is an area in which I can cut him some slack.

27 minutes ago, MrTrust said:

Atari could have gotten me on board with this if they'd gotten a known dev with 2600 chops to program their momentous return to the system or whatever.  If they'd hired you to make a new 2600 game, I would probably buy that, even at $60.  They didn't do that; they did this.

What I would like to know (and admit that I probably never will) is if they contracted the programmer to make the game or acted as publisher only; this is largely out of idle curiosity as to how much control Atari, SA may have had over the development process, particularly in the area of QA.  They certainly control the sales and marketing side, and we can see how that one is playing out.

[MrTrust]

8 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

One thought that has crossed my mind is that someone at Atari may very well have thought that a game of this quality represents The Real BITD Experience™.

 

Well, when the CEO wasn't yet born when the 5200 came out, it's clear there's an experiential mismatch.  I wonder what the age distribution among the creative roles are over there, because sometimes they make things that show they really "get it", like the A50 collection or Yars Recharged, and then they turn around and make Atari Mania, which feels like it was made by 20 year-olds who have only a superficial familiarity with the kind of games they're re-mixing.

 

8 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Note that that's not to give the programmer a hard time: the simple fact that he wrote a game for the system is appreciated.  Pricing was likely out of his hands, so this is an area in which I can cut him some slack.

 

Hey, if Atari had offered to buy a game from me and release it, you better believe I'd sell it to 'em.  I got nothing against this guy or his game anymore than I would be mad at the sweatshop laborers who embroider the speaker hats.   It's the company and their editorial decisions that are at issue here, which I think we all agree on.

 

8 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

What I would like to know (and admit that I probably never will) is if they contracted the programmer to make the game or acted as publisher only; this is largely out of idle curiosity as to how much control Atari, SA may have had over the development process, particularly in the area of QA.

 

It would be interesting to know this about any of the stuff they publish, really.  The guy's company has already developed Kombinera for Atari (or Atari published it for them), so there is some existing relationship.  It appears from what's out there that the 2600 project was actually the inspiration for the new game, so maybe the whole thing was a packaged deal, or they bought the property and are squeezing every dime they can get out of it.  Who knows?

 

Either way, yes, it would be nice to know how much Atari has anything to do with the good stuff they've actually published in recent memory.  My guess is very little, but it's been that way since, what, '84 anyway?

[tschak909]

I will mention it, once again:

 

Atari is half a dozen suits in an office split between New York and Paris.

 

They have no internal creative anything.

 

-Thom

[+ZeroPage Homebrew]

The perfect encapsulation of Atari SA nostalgia, a release that's nothing but an empty shell.

 

They just announced a new collectible without even a pesky Atari 2600 game getting in the way, ready to be put on a shelf and forgotten about. At least it's free I suppose? https://twitter.com/atari/status/1669408216915095553

 

Sadly I'm not allowed to have one being in Canada.

 

- James

 

PS This is just a bit of poking fun at Atari. Cool artwork by Tim Lapetino and I wish it actually was a game instead of a piece of plastic.

 

 

[Supergun]

I’m late to the party here as I happened to be out of town as this news broke. (always seems to happen to me that way) But here are my key gripes with what’s been pointed out thus far.

1) I don’t like the fact that it’s not a real 2600 game. Meaning “specifically designed for the 2600 system”. Rather it’s the 2600 VERSION of the PC, XBOX, PSX, etc version of this game.

 

It’s like when they made HALO for 2600. More hype then purpose.

 

2) I don’t care if a 2600 game is bBasic, DPC+, ARM, etc. But if you have “Spider Maze level of flicker” in your game, YOU and your game SUCKS! PERIOD! Because that is an unplayable/unacceptable level of flicker!

 

3) Nobody here needs to get so hung up on the “official” part of the wording used for this or ANY other 2600 game released both in the near future or even until eternity. Because wether or not your name is Atari, or if you were original Activision programmers, or anything else. Unless you can time travel, you will NEVER be considered an “official” release.

 

Because, as has been stated many times before, in order for it to qualify as part of the official set, a game had to have been released and/or made available during the natural lifespan of the system.

[+x=usr(1536)]

3 hours ago, Supergun said:

I don’t care if a 2600 game is bBasic, DPC+, ARM, etc. But if you have “Spider Maze level of flicker” in your game, YOU and your game SUCKS! PERIOD! Because that is an unplayable/unacceptable level of flicker!

My sheer idle curiosity would love to see a dump and disassembly.  If it's pure assembly, great; if there's evidence of known libraries, etc., fine.  But it would be interesting to know.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

4 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

My sheer idle curiosity would love to see a dump and disassembly.  If it's pure assembly, great; if there's evidence of known libraries, etc., fine.  But it would be interesting to know.

CloneSpy would find out automatically.

[+KaeruYojimbo]

17 hours ago, Supergun said:

2) I don’t care if a 2600 game is bBasic, DPC+, ARM, etc. But if you have “Spider Maze level of flicker” in your game, YOU and your game SUCKS! PERIOD! Because that is an unplayable/unacceptable level of flicker!

I really suspect the sheer ugliness of the flicker in the video I saw (which I now can't find, but I only gave a half-assed look for it) was from recording at 30fps. I don't know that for sure, but I'm willing to give the developer that benefit of the doubt there. That doesn't change the fact that there appears to be a lot of flicker in this game. I'm willing to allow for flicker in games like Draconian or Zoo Keeper where there's a lot going on on-screen, but it's inexcusable in a game this simple, even one made with bB.

[+KaeruYojimbo]

23 hours ago, ZeroPage Homebrew said:

The perfect encapsulation of Atari SA nostalgia, a release that's nothing but an empty shell.

 

They just announced a new collectible without even a pesky Atari 2600 game getting in the way, ready to be put on a shelf and forgotten about. At least it's free I suppose? https://twitter.com/atari/status/1669408216915095553

 

Sadly I'm not allowed to have one being in Canada.

 

- James

 

PS This is just a bit of poking fun at Atari. Cool artwork by Tim Lapetino and I wish it actually was a game instead of a piece of plastic.

 

 

Hey! They found a use for all those returned Saboteurs and Aquaventures!

[+x=usr(1536)]

5 hours ago, KaeruYojimbo said:

I really suspect the sheer ugliness of the flicker in the video I saw (which I now can't find, but I only gave a half-assed look for it) was from recording at 30fps. I don't know that for sure, but I'm willing to give the developer that benefit of the doubt there.

While I'm willing to cut the programmer the same amount of slack, I don't think this is strictly a 30fps recording issue.  It may be a part of what we're seeing, but it doesn't strike me that it can explain it completely.

 

There is literally nothing I can present as evidence to back that up.  It's total gut feeling, and I admit it.  But from watching the video, it feels like 30fps capture is only exacerbating the issue, not causing it.

 

BTW, I'm attaching the video here.  Apparently this only appears on Atari's product page for the 2600 version; doesn't look as though anyone's uploaded it to YouTube or similar yet.

 

 

 

[+KaeruYojimbo]

1 hour ago, x=usr(1536) said:

But from watching the video, it feels like 30fps capture is only exacerbating the issue, not causing it.

If I had to guess (which I do), I'd guess that seen in person running on real hardware the flicker is more "Adventure like" than "Spider Maze like." That said, as has been pointed out here, there's absolutely no reason for this much flicker in a game like this.

Edited June 18, 2023 by KaeruYojimbo