Thomas Jentzsch Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 6 hours ago, Gemintronic said: I have NO idea why there is hate for Albert protecting our community from lawsuits and giving us a sale. It's as if all the haters saw the sale and decided to throw shade on social media for the lols. News to me. But then, I am not using anti-social media. 😁 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Andrew Davie Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 On 6/23/2023 at 2:03 PM, Captain Cozmos said: My curiosity is peaked. *piqued, actually it's a common mistake. On 6/23/2023 at 2:03 PM, Captain Cozmos said: I have several games on the back burner such as Colecovision Millipede, A Miner 2049er Level editor, Bounty Bob Strikes back. Currently I am working on a version of Shamus and I would hate for all my hard work to be effected. Why not try to find the IP owners and contact them, and try to find a way to license the titles? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 1 hour ago, Andrew Davie said: Why not try to find the IP owners and contact them, and try to find a way to license the titles? While this may work with some smaller companies, we have numerous reports, that the bigger ones don't even react when yo ask them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Andrew Davie Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 Just now, Thomas Jentzsch said: While this may work with some smaller companies, we have numerous reports, that the bigger ones don't even react when yo ask them. To be clearer, I have never said if you don't own the IP don't use it. I've said that one should try to contact IP owners for permission. If you can't get a response, or can't find the IP owner... then that is a choice you have to make - do you proceed anyway? I make no criticism/judgement on those who decide to do so. I'm just saying that you need to make the effort, and recognise that even if you can't contact someone or you simply don't get a response -- you leave yourself open to being in a position where you're facing a C&D or perhaps some sort of claim for using IP without permission. I see this whole "issue" as a chance for the community to get more original games, so there's a silver lining. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 10 minutes ago, Andrew Davie said: I see this whole "issue" as a chance for the community to get more original games, so there's a silver lining. Like John said yesterday in the ZPH stream: "I am a game programmer, not a game designer". So there is a risk, that we will loose some talents and overall see less games in the future. Not everyone is a VHZC. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 4 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: Like John said yesterday in the ZPH stream: "I am a game programmer, not a game designer". So there is a risk, that we will loose some talents and overall see less games in the future. Not everyone is a VHZC. On the other hand you have people who love creating original games that also program them. Perhaps this is their chance to shine. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 7 minutes ago, Gemintronic said: On the other hand you have people who love creating original games that also program them. Perhaps this is their chance to shine. What has stopped them until now? 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+GoldenWheels Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 I am a saddened that even some, let's say, look a likes (Beef Drop, Froggie) were affected by this. If that is any indicator, even renamed conversions will be an issue going forward, which really sucks and is super limiting for growing the library. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 5 hours ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: What has stopped them until now? Only so much attention and hobby money to go around. What's stopping those that are programmers first from unbranding their ports to avoid IP issues? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 3 minutes ago, Gemintronic said: What's stopping those that are programmers first from unbranding their ports to avoid IP issues? Probably this will happen with some ports. But as a developer, you want to go forward with new projects. And not make already existing games less perfect. Also going back to old code is usually a quite tedious work and no fun at all. And finally the customers often prefer getting as close as possible to the original. So effectively you are making the games worse from their point of view. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 15 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: Probably this will happen with some ports. But as a developer, you want to go forward with new projects. And not make already existing games less perfect. Also going back to old code is usually a quite tedious work and no fun at all. And finally the customers often prefer getting as close as possible to the original. So effectively you are making the games worse from their point of view. How is not getting your publisher sued worse? Heck, how is not getting cease and desisted because you made the game worse? Almost no one can afford the time, money and stress of being sued. Many admit that they barely break even. If all that sells is IP infringing games then you've got all bad choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 Perhaps this is the time for those "idea peddlers" to shine, if they can formalize their concepts in such way that someone like John can implement it. Also it isn't rocket science to take one or two existing games, make adaptions to graphics, levels, motives and back story to make it an unique title that no IP troll trying to hunt down remakes of 40 year old games will be successful in doing. For that matter, I didn't promote underground publishers, just noted those exist and attract just as many sales as the overground publishers manage with original games, sometimes maybe more. I can agree with Andrew that the community as a whole (in particular buyers/collectors) should not try to circumvent the rights to games that still are in effect, and instead embrace the forward thinking the developers and publishers represent. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+splendidnut Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 33 minutes ago, Gemintronic said: What's stopping those that are programmers first from unbranding their ports to avoid IP issues? Nothing. Nothing is stopping them from rebranding. Except maybe the goals of their projects. Do I want to unbrand Chaotic Grill? No, not really, it's in the final stages. Why even make a port if it doesn't try and match the original. If someone wants to play Burgertime they can just play it on another system. <rant> I think it's a bit silly that Al could potentially be sued over a remake of a game from 40+ years ago for a system that's over 40 years old. I think it's a bit silly that I could potentially be sued for doing a port of a game that's been around longer than I have. But that's what the lawyers, the law makers and corporations have decreed is worth wasting money on. Gotta protect all those original 40-year old ideas from the savages. </rant> ------ The bright side to this is that I do have a few original ideas that I can pursue now. But they'll take more time due to needing to do game design. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 24 minutes ago, Gemintronic said: How is not getting your publisher sued worse? Heck, how is not getting cease and desisted because you made the game worse? I talked about the games, not their legal status. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 29 minutes ago, splendidnut said: Why even make a port if it doesn't try and match the original. That implies that BurgerTime in the original form was a game made to perfection. Nothing about it that is limiting, unbalanced or becomes dull after it repeats itself. I can agree there are a number of such games that really seem like perfection on the first attempt, and the challenges in porting it to a (completely) different system while still maintaining the level of excellence. However if an original game only was "good" by 1983 standards but feels dated by 2023 standards, I don't see what's wrong in taking the good bits from the old game, reworking what doesn't quite works out today and package it in a non-offending way. IMHO a lot of the awe about old games lie in the nostalgia more than playability or excellent audiovisuals, not to mention sometimes the target system might not be suited for the exact reproduction of a game. The fact that coming up with entirely original content requires more development time and is associated with more expenses is regrettable. If this will be reflected onto the retailer price so we'll be closer to $100 than $50 for new games remains to see. I realize there will be an outcry from the customers in that case, but then it can be addressed why new homebrew games have to become more expensive, and that obtaining rights for existing IP would have driven up the costs as much, if not more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 3 minutes ago, carlsson said: That implies that BurgerTime in the original form was a game made to perfection. Nothing about it that is limiting, unbalanced or becomes dull after it repeats itself. I can agree there are a number of such games that really seem like perfection on the first attempt, and the challenges in porting it to a (completely) different system while still maintaining the level of excellence. If you look a e.g. John's games, you will find that he has been doing exactly that. And e.g. my own game Aardvark also tries to improve over the Anteater original. The original arcade games were designed to make money. Games had to end fast. When you port such a game to a homebrew you will have to change the difficulty and it's ramp-up. Also you can add game variations to increase replay value. But you are always trying to do this on top of the original, not as an alternative for something you could not achieve. 3 minutes ago, carlsson said: The fact that coming up with entirely original content requires more development time and is associated with more expenses is regrettable. If this will be reflected onto the retailer price so we'll be closer to $100 than $50 for new games remains to see. I realize there will be an outcry from the customers in that case, but then it can be addressed why new homebrew games have to become more expensive, and that obtaining rights for existing IP would have driven up the costs as much, if not more. A higher price will reduce the number of people buying. And the number of people playing. No good. And a longer development time (for design and/or legal reasons) will reduce the number of games. Also no good. In the end there will be less games, at a higher price and maybe less fun to play. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+splendidnut Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 35 minutes ago, carlsson said: That implies that BurgerTime in the original form was a game made to perfection. Not really. My intention was not to imply perfection, but just about matching close to the original game's look and feel. BurgerTime is a game that can easily be expanded upon in many ways... a simple example being the bonus items. But to actually mitigate IP infringement, the story, the characters, the music, the sounds, and the levels would probably all have to be thrown out. At that point, you're basically back at square one of designing a game from scratch. Granted you have a base foundation laid if you say you want to make a "BurgerTime" like game. But at that point, I'd rather just start from scratch on game design. 39 minutes ago, carlsson said: IMHO a lot of the awe about old games lie in the nostalgia more than playability or excellent audiovisuals, not to mention sometimes the target system might not be suited for the exact reproduction of a game. I hold the opposite point of view... I'd rather games match close to the original. But that might just because I have no nostalgia towards the original arcade games, since my youth was after the golden age of the arcades. When it comes to ports, I want to see them get as close to the original as possible without requiring me to fallback to Mame to play them. I also like to see ports on as many systems as possible since that provides a way to compare and contrast the differences between systems. ----- I ultimately hope this helps bring about more original games. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 BurgerTime itself is a tricky case since it has a very specific game mechanism. VTech once made a clone for the CreatiVision called Locomotive which has the exact same mechanism, but instead of producing hamburgers, you create a train set with a number of wagons. I'm not saying it is any improvement over the original. While VTech did get a letter from Atari/Namco about their game Crazy Pucker/Crazy Chewie infringing the rights to Pac-Man (just like e.g. Magnavox/Philips and Commodore did get), I don't know if Data East ever found out or cared about this obscure Hong Kong system with some presence in Australia and parts of Europe. In order to use porting of well-known games as a benchmark about each system also implies you limit yourself to the original hardware of said system. No memory expansions, accelerators, graphics enhancers etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 He is really sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Cozmos Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, Andrew Davie said: *piqued, actually it's a common mistake. Why not try to find the IP owners and contact them, and try to find a way to license the titles? I did and do. In the case of Dino Eggs, It started out with no problem to I do 100% of the work and go into debt over a 35 year old dead title. While his last interaction with this game, that I am aware of, was some followup sequel in 2016 for phones. That said, I have no issues with DS, he's a squared guy and is just protecting his baby. But reality is realty no matter how you try and slice it. So, it is easier to make the same type of themed game in 8 bits than trying to license a dead game and battle the creator over it's worth. I do not want to get too deep into the weeds but there is a company that releases copyrighted titles under the table and there are people here that run interference for them. So, maybe the chickens have finally come home to roost because they ignored the repeated warning signs. As far as Colecovision Shamus I am working on, it has evolved into something more graphical and exciting to the point that it is no longer Shamus. At the same time, the other titles will have to either evolve or not be made. BTW, you can always make a Zelda type game and not use Zelda. Make something new, innovate.... Edited June 24, 2023 by Captain Cozmos 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Gemintronic Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 6 minutes ago, Captain Cozmos said: BTW, you can always make a Zelda type game and not use Zelda. Make something new, innovate.... I feel personally attacked! 😛 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: He is really sad. Let me quote him, with what bothers me in bold text: "You can still buy homebrew games from AtariAge. They haven't stopped selling homebrew games, they're going to continue selling homebrew games, but the problem is that they're only going to be original games, originally programmed games. If it is a port of another arcade game where a licensing conflict could occur, Albert's not going to distribute it, he's just not." With this wording, it seems like he thinks original games not previously seen is a problem, shelf fodder, something that takes place on behalf of the ports. I find that equally troublesome as the other side of the topic we're discussing. Edited June 24, 2023 by carlsson 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Cozmos Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 30 minutes ago, carlsson said: BurgerTime itself is a tricky case since it has a very specific game mechanism. VTech once made a clone for the CreatiVision called Locomotive which has the exact same mechanism, but instead of producing hamburgers, you create a train set with a number of wagons. I'm not saying it is any improvement over the original. While VTech did get a letter from Atari/Namco about their game Crazy Pucker/Crazy Chewie infringing the rights to Pac-Man (just like e.g. Magnavox/Philips and Commodore did get), I don't know if Data East ever found out or cared about this obscure Hong Kong system with some presence in Australia and parts of Europe. In order to use porting of well-known games as a benchmark about each system also implies you limit yourself to the original hardware of said system. No memory expansions, accelerators, graphics enhancers etc? This is how I understand some of what is going on. You have all the emulation out there over the years and pretty much everything free from whatever your source is. A few of these fly by night companies like 1UP, the Flashback series, decided to monetize this stuff. Makes no sense to me when you can get a better experience free on your computer. However, some companies are hanging on by a thread such as big "N". So when you take the only IP they have left that makes them money such as DK then they tend to get pissed. Even if you are not a threat, they have to crush you with a hammer to set an example for others. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Cozmos Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Gemintronic said: I feel personally attacked! 😛 Sweeeeeeeeet That actually looks outstanding despite being on a 2600. Edited June 24, 2023 by Captain Cozmos 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wavemotion Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 15 minutes ago, carlsson said: With this wording, it seems like he thinks original games not previously seen is a problem, shelf fodder, something that takes place on behalf of the ports. I find that equally troublesome as the other side of the topic we're discussing. If you look at the top 50 at AA (use the wayback machine if you want a view a week ago before the sale started) and close to 40 of them are ports - it might be a tad higher if you include 'spiritual sequels' such as Medieval Mayhem (Warlords) or Space Rocks (Asteroids/Deluxe). It's not easy to create original content - engineering and technical development is one set of skills and game design is altogether different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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