Jump to content
IGNORED

Thoughts on revising or compiling others' programs


senior_falcon
Message added by OLD CS1,

This was created as a split from another thread to keep the ensuing conversation separated, and was neither started nor titled by the listed owner.

Recommended Posts

On 8/23/2023 at 8:21 AM, tmop69 said:

Just one final clarification: I've never removed in any of the 600+ compiled programs the name of the original author, even though in same cases it was really difficult (if not impossible...)

This claim has not been made.

 

On 8/23/2023 at 8:21 AM, tmop69 said:

For 30/40 years old BASIC programs was impracticable and unrealistic to check/ask the permission first.

The specific problem was made perfectly clear, and generalizing the issue does not make the point any less legitimate.

 

On 8/23/2023 at 7:55 AM, Schmitzi said:

I understand the idea of asking people for permission, but for example, how to manage that for more than 600 conversions like TMOP did in the last 3 years, sitting there night & day, any free minute ?

My point was that doing so may not have been made specifically part of the process.  Again, specifically to my case, the programs were released here, under my pseudonym with my real name in the program, and while just the DSK image is available at the Gameshelf, the older versions of the program I wrote from 1988 were only available here.

 

On 8/23/2023 at 8:21 AM, tmop69 said:

Moreover, the philosophy of BASIC listing was to type, modify them and learn. We all started in such way to code with the TI. If this is not true anymore, this is no more retro-programming.

Yes, we typed in, modified, and learned, and for the most part kept those in our own collections or perhaps distributed in limited fashion, but even back then taking a TI BASIC program, modifying it, then distributing it in its new form without the original author's blessing would have been afoul of the author's rights.  That doing so is digital and easy to do does not make it any less an offense.  The idea that If this is not true anymore, this is no more retro-programming, over-dramatizes the situation and makes an unappreciated trivialization of my point.

 

On 8/23/2023 at 8:21 AM, tmop69 said:

In the Word file in the .zip there is no mention to: not modify, not compile and/or not compile this V2.0 version, etc. from the original author.

Yet again I point out that restrictions are implicit in the rights of the creator.  Whether the creator waives his rights explicitly in writing, or implicitly by not speaking out or taking action, is up to each creator, individually.  In the absence of an explicit waiver, it must be assumed those rights are reserved.  Not just legally, but ethically.  In the case of @99V, for instance, it is obvious to anyone you had explicit permissions to make a new product of his work.  More than that: you collaborated with him.

 

On 8/23/2023 at 8:21 AM, tmop69 said:

But maybe it is just my broken ability to read/understand English... sorry, I'm just an Italian,

While I get cultural differences, I believe some people hide behind that as an excuse to continue behaviors in which they feel justified.

 

On 8/23/2023 at 8:21 AM, tmop69 said:

so we like "melodrama" (and you can add also "pizza", "mandolino" and other predictable stereotypes).

My reference to melodrama is the obvious disagreement between us which has escalated to an unnecessary level due to me making what is a perfectly righteous claim.  Though the tenor of our direct discourse leads me toward feeling accused of something here, I also want to, and shall, assume your comment of "predictable stereotypes" is meant in good faith, perhaps as humor.

 

On 8/23/2023 at 8:21 AM, tmop69 said:

And it's also interesting the concept of "ask permission for...". I do not remember to have ever received any request of permission to modify some of my scans that I've uploaded on whtech approx. 20 years ago.

This is a matter of preservation, not completely relevant to my claims, in which you took an existing work, shifted it from one medium to another, and released it for distribution.  Then, someone came along and made a derivative of your work without acknowledgement to you.  And, frankly, this was wrong, especially if you made it clear in your production that you had done the original work.  I will say that anyone who modified your work should have made a fair effort to contact you to let you know what they had done.  They certainly should not remove your information, if you provided it, and presented the work as if it was their own, without any acknowledgement.

 

Why should we hold The Cyc, for instance, in higher regard than your work?  Did you take any less time or care in performing or curating your work?  For myself, I hold a lot of scanned documents which others have produced and I have performed OCR for my own uses, which I shall not redistribute.

 

On 8/23/2023 at 8:21 AM, tmop69 said:

I was flexible enough to expect that publishing the raw jpegs, instead of watermarked, protected pdfs, could expose to changes, but the TI was/is a so small community that for me was a nonsense to force restrictions.

Noble of you.

 

On 8/23/2023 at 8:21 AM, tmop69 said:

the TI was/is a so small community that for me was a nonsense to force restrictions.

In terms of preservation, I can see this argument.  We are, however, speaking in the context of a small community with a small number of contributors and creators.

 

FWIW, this is a direct quote from the documentation I included with Tiles:

Quote

My conversion of "Tiles" is not permitted to be sold as part of any collection or
compendium of games for which a charge is made above the costs of media or distribution,
and may be distributed as part of free public domain collections whether in on-line or
media form, including not-for-charge BBSes and forums with options for free membership.
I request that information included with any such distribution point to
https://locu.li/tiles99 and said link is not required to be the exclusive means of
description.

I actually felt silly doing this.  I thought, why would anyone take the work I have done and redistribute it in any form?  I at least anticipated that it might get redistributed, though I did not, and should not have needed to, anticipate that it would be distributed in a modified form.

 

On 8/23/2023 at 8:21 AM, tmop69 said:

So, I do not think I deserve any lessons here on what is "courtesy".

We differ on this point, and I will be as direct: you took my work, modified it, and redistributed it without my permission, producing a product with my name on it, operating in a way which I did not prescribe, then claimed to have some right to do so because the source was available and it would have put some undue burden upon you to consult with me.

 

Legally you violated my implicit copyright; ethically you abdicated your duty to ensure my rights were preserved; morally you could have just asked.

 

On 8/23/2023 at 8:06 AM, Schmitzi said:

But how to find a programmer here on AA with his real name given in a code from the 80ies,

when almost all people are using pseudonyms ?  🕵️‍♂️

I released my programs in threads owned by my pseudonym, with my real name in the programs and documentation.  Not sure what else I should do here.

 

On 8/23/2023 at 7:55 AM, Schmitzi said:

I understand the idea of asking people for permission, but for example, how to manage that for more than 600 conversions like TMOP did in the last 3 years, sitting there night & day, any free minute ?

I have already pointed out my positive feelings about and acknowledged his work, and I am not going to continue repeating it to appease or stroke his ego, or somehow soften the blow of what I have claimed.

 

On 8/23/2023 at 7:55 AM, Schmitzi said:

At least the people floating around here on AA, day by day since years, should have known in advance that a compilation will automatically happen... :)

What should I assume if I put my pie in the window, and why?

 

On 8/23/2023 at 8:21 AM, tmop69 said:

It would be now very interesting if the original author of MarbleMaze for DOS would complain of the un-authorized TI99 porting, because he was a C64 guy...

Did someone take his original program source and make a new product of it, purporting it to be the same?  Quite the contrary, the introduction to the release thread states clearly it is a conversion of an MS-DOS game.  It is obviously a new creation, offering homage to its source.

 

There is a saying that imitation is a great form of flattery, and some people do see it that way.  If someone wanted to make a port of one of my TI or Commodore programs to another platform, I would feel the same -- what is created at that point is a new work.  Alas, none of what I have created is good enough to be flattered in such a way.  I mean, really, all I have created and released at this point are licensed ports of old type-in programs.

 

There is also a saying that in undergrad you commit plagiarism, and in graduate school you commit research.  This raises the question, why should one be held to a lower standard than the other?

 

On 8/23/2023 at 9:11 AM, JasonACT said:

Yeah, he's a good guy...

I agree.  I have expressed in several ways my positive feelings about @tmop69.  That he is a good guy with good intentions is not going to make me feel guilty when he throws his sucker in the dirt, stomping off in a huff, because he took offense to a criticism of him.  I may be at fault for being used to people telling me to f-off and then move on, and I stand firm on that being my only transgression here.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@OLD CS1 I'll not reply to other points of your very long post, to avoid an infinite loop. People can evaluate by themselves.

 

I suspect that the main problem here, for you, was the compilation of Tiles.

 

To be able to obtain 600+ compiled programs ("worth to be compiled", as in the original title of the thread) I checked at least 4000/5000 disks (.dsk files). In each disk there was just the single file to load, no screenshoots of the game in some cases, no .txt with instructions, etc. Sometimes I've compiled a game twice, simply because I've forgotten to have already done (and I had a Excel file to track the programs...).

 

I've just searched and you published it at the beginning of 2018 (second/final version). I usually put a like/thanks when I dowload something on the forum and I do not see mine on you post, so I'm 100% sure to not have downloaded from the original source, with all the disclaimers, limitations, bla, bla.

 

I've started posting the compiled games in September 2020. I've posted my compiled version of Tiles in February 2021. You discovered it in March 2023 and explained, in a post on my thread, that you have already provided the "official" compiled version, etc. My reply was clear, I was not aware of it, otherwise I'd not have compiled it.

 

So, the question is: do you really think that I was so stupid to waste my time and compile again Tiles? And for what reason? Just to pi*s you off? Please! Sorry, you're not my main thought in my days. 🙂 

 

My compiled version received 86 download, your official 112, so instead of "hating" me, you should be happy that I've helped you to revive the game. That I've objectively described as "nice memory/puzzle" game, but this is mainly merit of the original author. Your main contribution was only the port on the TI, not the original concept, if I had to be frank.

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, tmop69 said:

So, the question is: do you really think that I was so stupid to waste my time and compile again Tiles? And for what reason? Just to pi*s you off? Please! Sorry, you're not my main thought in my days. 🙂 

I never said nor implied that.  Stop with the strawmen.

 

56 minutes ago, tmop69 said:

My compiled version received 86 download, your official 112, so instead of "hating" me, you should be happy that I've helped you to revive the game. That I've objectively described as "nice memory/puzzle" game, but this is mainly merit of the original author. Your main contribution was only the port on the TI, not the original concept, if I had to be frank.

Now you are arguing an unfalsifiable point which, once again, digresses from my original complaint.  Then, you had to throw in a jab to try to hurt my ego?

 

58 minutes ago, tmop69 said:

I'll not reply to other points of your very long post, to avoid an infinite loop. People can evaluate by themselves.

 

I suspect that the main problem here, for you, was the compilation of Tiles.

If you had actually read what I have been saying in these long diatribes, you would have your answer and would understand.  Given this statement, I can only assume that you simply did not read or refuse to accept what I have been saying as eloquently as I possibly can.  Instead, you act like a child.

 

I tried to be nice in explanation of my position, and you continue to rationalize unrepentant what you did, insisting that I should thank you.  Then you make a sixth-grader attempt at an insult, you might as well have just said "yeah, well, your mom," and you imply that I am somehow bigoted or biased toward you because you are Italian.  No, sir, this is all about you: you are a rude Italian, and I hold nothing about you or your obstinence against any of your countrymen.

 

Since my words have thus far fallen upon deaf ears, allow me to state it succinctly: if you ever see my name on something, turn around and walk away.  If you see my name on a program or other article, print it to paper or save it to disk and set it on fire.  I could not care less.  Stay away from me and anything I produce.  Block me here or anywhere else where we might co-mingle; I am done with you.

 

Period.  I hope that is clear and tl;dr enough for you.

  • Like 1
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, senior_falcon said:

I apologize to everyone. What seemed like an innocent question managed to torch off this total sh*t storm. That was certainly not my intention.

 

 

Naah, this is not because of a simple question.

I love your post #1 here, it is just straight to the point. 

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a fair question.  On the 2600 side some discussed disassembling and completing a promising project.  Since no one could contact the author and the license wasn't known it went nowhere.  As it should.

 

I tried to get a feel for how people would appreciate a play alike with all new code.  That didn't go over so well either.  There's the trap of not being exactly the same and yet inheriting the taint of anything bad from the original.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, senior_falcon said:

I apologize to everyone. What seemed like an innocent question managed to torch off this total sh*t storm. That was certainly not my intention.

This was not your fault.  You asked a perfectly legitimate question.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/22/2023 at 11:29 PM, senior_falcon said:

I am trying to understand this post.

First, Red Baron writes a nice game. People like it and Schmitzi likes it enough to make and post a disk version

Red Baron revises the program, posts it, and Schmitzi makes a second disk for version 1.1

A screenshot was requested and sometines99 posts one.

Version 2.0 is posted on facebook.

OLDCS1 makes a change and sends it to Red Baron. Willsy makes another change. Later you talk about making additional changes.

OX requests a compiled version, there is some discussion about the merits of compilation, then two posts later tmop69 posts a compiled version 2.0

You rap tmop69's knuckles about jumping the gun, even though at least 3 versions have already been posted with more to come.

MarbleMaze is clearly a work in progress. If it is OK to post multiple revisions in BASIC, why is it not OK to post an intermediate compiled version, knowing that down the road another will be necessary?

9 hours ago, senior_falcon said:

I apologize to everyone. What seemed like an innocent question managed to torch off this total sh*t storm. That was certainly not my intention.

Well, you certainly kept the fire alive. New thread. Innocent question ? Nah. Come on.
Even I, when posting a screenshot upon request, feels guilty - in your line of retelling. Am I allowed to do so ? Wouldn't the creator rather have one experience the program running, than someone discarding it because of a "boring" screenshot !?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, sometimes99er said:

Forgot the headline. Of course it's not alright to change others' programs.

Interesting point. So it's not alright to modify a program, but it's ok to use a modified program (and also complain if it's not working fine). I'm referring to the Burghertime thread in with @Tursi changed the background music of the game (https://forums.atariage.com/topic/353873-fixing-burgertimes-background-music/?do=findComment&comment=5299522).

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, sometimes99er said:

Well, you certainly kept the fire alive. New thread. Innocent question ? Nah. Come on.

That was me what did that, to separate what I figured would become a deep discussion from @RedBaron's game thread.  It just so happens that whoever has the FP of a split thread is the owner.  @senior_falcon did not start this thread, nor did he instigate anything.  The question was in response to my challenge.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, tmop69 said:

Interesting point. So it's not alright to modify a program, but it's ok to use a modified program (and also complain if it's not working fine). I'm referring to the Burghertime thread in with @Tursi changed the background music of the game

Asked and answered.

  

4 hours ago, sometimes99er said:

Even I, when posting a screenshot upon request, feels guilty - in your line of retelling.

This would be an obtuse reading of my complaint.  It would strike me as odd for someone to object to a screenshot of their running program.  In fact, that some AAA houses have tried to copyright-strike streamers for playing their games, and included prohibitions from doing so in their EULAs, has been soundly rejected.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, tmop69 said:

Interesting point. So it's not alright to modify a program, but it's ok to use a modified program (and also complain if it's not working fine). I'm referring to the Burghertime thread in with @Tursi changed the background music of the game (https://forums.atariage.com/topic/353873-fixing-burgertimes-background-music/?do=findComment&comment=5299522).

I didn't say that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now, I'm not trying to stir the pot here, and neither do I wish to be "involved" in the argument but it's a fair point about Burgertime.  If that IP is still in ownership by any company, how did you (persons involved) get around altering the Rom legally ?   I missed that part of the asked/answered.   I've run out of bloody popcorn as well, i'm onto chocolate digestives now.

 

Your lot are gonna get me fat !  

  • Haha 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, OLD CS1 said:

Asked and answered.

  

I was not referring to you asking and receiving the permission from @Tursito modify again his modified code of Burghertime. Data East owns the copyright of Burghertime, that is still on sale in compilations like the Data East Collection for the Evercade.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, OLD CS1 said:

That was me what did that, to separate what I figured would become a deep discussion from @RedBaron's game thread.  It just so happens that whoever has the FP of a split thread is the owner.  @senior_falcon did not start this thread, nor did he instigate anything.  The question was in response to my challenge.

Would have been nice if that had been mentioned in the top of this thread. - I should have kept my mouth shot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Retrospect said:

Now, I'm not trying to stir the pot here, and neither do I wish to be "involved" in the argument but it's a fair point about Burgertime.  If that IP is still in ownership by any company, how did you (persons involved) get around altering the Rom legally ?   I missed that part of the asked/answered.   I've run out of bloody popcorn as well, i'm onto chocolate digestives now.

 

Your lot are gonna get me fat !  

Yes, Burghertime can be still purchased and it's available in compilations. https://evercade.co.uk/cartridges/data-east-collection/

Edited by tmop69
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, sometimes99er said:

Would have been nice if that had been mentioned in the top of this thread. - I should have kept my mouth shot.

I apologize to you both.  It never occurred to me that he would be questioned for the thread, and I assumed most people engaged in the discussion would know its genesis.  I have made that clear, now.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...