Strangest phenominon ever on my c64 1541 diskdrive

[johannesmutlu]

I recently bought a C64 along with a C64 4115,and once tried it with a multi rom disk by typing in the bootup command code load”*”,8,1 then i hit return but i just ended up with an error massage saying that it found no *

i tried both sides of the disk but,,,i got no luck,
so i decided to try homebrew duckhunt and eventrough that game didn’t say to type in load”*”,8,1 i just did tried that and guess what,,, it just worked, (both duckhunt and that multi rom disk are from the same seller and were both buldled together so i don’t thing that multi rom disk was erased during shipping,on ebay the seller showed pictures of both roms),

so i decided to try again that multi rom disk but guess what now comes the most strangest phenominon i,ve ever met with a diskdrive,i all the sudden just couldn’t fir that multi rom disk inside the diskdrive anymore,i tried both sides,i tried it with and without those security stickers,i tried it with only the left and then the right sticker,i tried put it it in carfully in,i tried forcing it in,i tried it with the diskdrive turned on and off  but some magically how i just couldn’t get it inside the diskdrive,then i decided to try duck hunt again and that floppy just did get inside the diskdrive without any problem,

I looked at both disks to see if there was any physical differences between the two but i just saw absolutely no differences between the two,they both look exactly the same,same thickness etc,,,

So i come with the conclusion that it is not a random mechanical failure inside the diskdrive no,

so it begs the wuestion,is there any sorth of hidden security system inside the diskdrive to prevent any unauthorized program disks to be inserted inside the diskdrive. Or am i missing something???

sure some will probably not believe me and thinking that am out of my mind but i swear in the name science that this strange phenominon just happened to me eventrough i still cannot believe it happened but it did,

well i hope am not the only one in the world wich was only able to fit disk A in the diskdrive but eventually NOT disk B and hope that he/she could explain what the hack is going on,

but it’s really frustrating aaarrrggg

I may will put more pictures to prove my point.

[Virtualsky]

If the disk won't "fit" into the disk slot anymore, I'm guessing there's something stuck in there that's preventing the disks from going in.  I noticed that in one photo, the Duck Hun disk has a piece of tape stuck to it.  Disks should not have anything stuck onto them besides the label or security tabs.  Also, if the disk labels and tabs are old and peeling, they should be removed.  Anything getting stuck inside the drive is going to cause you problems.

I say, start there.  Make sure there's nothing stuck in the drive.  Also, once you put a disk in, see if you can read a disk directory.  To do that, type LOAD "$",8  and then, if that loads successfully, enter LIST to se a listing of the disk drive.  You should then see a list of all of the files stored on that side of the diskette.

[carlsson]

It took me much too long to dechiffer 4115 into 1541...

[johannesmutlu]

2 hours ago, Virtualsky said:

If the disk won't "fit" into the disk slot anymore, I'm guessing there's something stuck in there that's preventing the disks from going in.  I noticed that in one photo, the Duck Hun disk has a piece of tape stuck to it.  Disks should not have anything stuck onto them besides the label or security tabs.  Also, if the disk labels and tabs are old and peeling, they should be removed.  Anything getting stuck inside the drive is going to cause you problems.

I say, start there.  Make sure there's nothing stuck in the drive.  Also, once you put a disk in, see if you can read a disk directory.  To do that, type LOAD "$",8  and then, if that loads successfully, enter LIST to se a listing of the disk drive.  You should then see a list of all of the files stored on that side of the diskette.

Well thanks for mentioning this,but i tout i did all these steps you mentioned but i may give it a second try any soon,but it’s strange that i can still fit in duck hunt but not that multi rom gane,i tried it with amd without those label stickers on the side but no luck,eventrough that diskdrive does have a heat bang everytime i startup the diskdrive,it just works fine booting up duck hunt,but yeah i will give it a second chance,altrough i don’t wanna feel like to open it up and trying to figure out what’s inside and or cleaning it because i might could make it worse because of the potentially brittle plastic,i paid a whopping €123 dollars for it including shipping costs,

i never forget how i accidentally snapped off those screwholes from my atari 2600 jr by trying opening it up with all the consequences🥲🥲

maybe in the distant future i will open up my diskdrive once it stops working and to see what’s potentially inside in what causes the disk to be blocked to get inside.

[johannesmutlu]

9 minutes ago, carlsson said:

It took me much too long to dechiffer 4115 into 1541...

Well yeah HOT DAMMID, this is what i did realized afterwards,and theres no way in hell to rectifie this,but the other problem is that there were sooo many revisions of the C64 diskdrives whether it’s from commodore itself or from it’s competitors with their clone variations of it,each with their own features and whether they are called 1541,1540, or 4115 or whatever they called them, it can become confusing overtimes,

and that’s why am screaming for an unlimited edit feature on this site to rectifie mistakes,it’s about time.

[+evg2000]

28 minutes ago, johannesmutlu said:

Well yeah HOT DAMMID, this is what i did realized afterwards,and theres no way in hell to rectifie this,but the other problem is that there were sooo many revisions of the C64 diskdrives whether it’s from commodore itself or from it’s competitors with their clone variations of it,each with their own features and whether they are called 1541,1540, or 4115 or whatever they called them, it can become confusing overtimes,

and that’s why am screaming for an unlimited edit feature on this site to rectifie mistakes,it’s about time.

It's not unlimited, but if you became a subscriber you can edit for 30 days. If it's so important that you would scream, then I guess it would be worth it to pay for the feature

[carlsson]

Mistakes are easy to make, especially since yours looks like the label was mangled and perhaps drive mechanism was replaced as I can't recall any 1541 series model with a protruding drive like that.

 

But yeah, for reference the Commodore drives were 2040, 3040, 4040, 8050, 8250, 2031 (and LP versions), SFD-1001 all with IEEE bus (*) for the PET/CBM series. Then came the IEC series: 1540, 1541 in multiple variations, 1570, 1571, 1581. As for clones, those had their own fancy names but I can't think of either which used a different four digit number like that.

 

(*) Yeah, there were a couple more obscure ones that just about reached prototype stage or sold in very low numbers like 4031, 8060, 8061, 8062, 8280 etc but that is mostly trivia.

[Virtualsky]

Let's not forget the 1541-II and the 1541C, which I think this particular drive looks like to me.

[johannesmutlu]

Now for everyone who thinks that my 1541 diskdrive doesn’t work,well i got news for them it just works fine ,however once i tried that multi rom disk,it doesn’t found anything i typed in load”*”,8,1 then i hit return accordingly but no luck,i mentioned that seller behind those disks he sold to me but so far he did responded in that he found it strange as well,well i hope that that data didn’t got wiped out during shipment due potential magnetical fields from those mri scanning machines or something like that what may could generate intereference to have a negative effect on those disks,but i also heard that current produced floppy disks do have a tendency of wiping out data within weeks because of used cheaper film materials inside those doska wich would wear out quickly,if that’s true then i wouldn’t be amezed if that’s the case but it’s still disappointing i don’t know,

now i HARDLY could believe that that seller scalped me because he clearly showed some pictures of all those games he put on the disk

and he proposed me an exchange wich sounds good on paper but i hope that i do accept an exchange from him,that that other disk wouldn’t get wiped out for those ones whose wondering how on earth i was finally able to get that multi rom disk inside that diskdrive for once,well i did put some tape on the bothem of it to get it inside but again i was only able to get it for once or 2 or 3 times inside it but then the same story just did happen all over again.

and for everybody who don’t believing me am tempting to put a video of it online,

 

 

 

[+evg2000]

So now the disk fits?  what did you do different?

Your attached mov doesn't seem to work.

 

@Virtualsky suggested you try the directory command, I don't see that you tried it.  So I think that is the next logic step, try the directory command on both sides and attach pictures of the screen.  Directions previously mentioned:

"type LOAD "$",8  and then, if that loads successfully, enter LIST to se a listing of the disk drive"

 

[johannesmutlu]

5 minutes ago, evg2000 said:

So now the disk fits?  what did you do different?

Your attached mov doesn't seem to work.

 

@Virtualsky suggested you try the directory command, I don't see that you tried it.  So I think that is the next logic step, try the directory command on both sides and attach pictures of the screen.  Directions previously mentioned:

"type LOAD "$",8  and then, if that loads successfully, enter LIST to se a listing of the disk drive"

 

Well i tou i tried that as well but no luck either.

Edited September 9 by johannesmutlu

[+evg2000]

okay, as far as I could tell you only commented that you did load"*",8,1 not the load"$"
and you tried both sides?

[johannesmutlu]

5 minutes ago, evg2000 said:

okay, as far as I could tell you only commented that you did load"*",8,1 not the load"$"
and you tried both sides?

Yes i tried both sides,no luck

 

27 minutes ago, evg2000 said:

So now the disk fits?  what did you do different?

Your attached mov doesn't seem to work.

 

@Virtualsky suggested you try the directory command, I don't see that you tried it.  So I think that is the next logic step, try the directory command on both sides and attach pictures of the screen.  Directions previously mentioned:

"type LOAD "$",8  and then, if that loads successfully, enter LIST to se a listing of the disk drive"

 

Well it seems to work on side B bUt not side A,mmm.

[+evg2000]

so it sounds like side a is corrupted.  bummer.  Maybe someone who live in your country and nearby can create a new disk for you, I'm guess all the games are available on the internet somewhere.  Even if it cost a few dollars for the disk and postage that wouldn't be terrible. Though you would probably be better off getting on the drive alternatives pi1541, etc (then you could make your own disk) or a flash cart solution back bit, kung fu flash, easyflash 3 etc.

 

good luck!
 

[Virtualsky]

Just to be sure, leave off the ,1 when doing a directory load.  Just use: LOAD "$",8 and then LIST  don't use the (comma) 1.

 

 

Here's a little program you can use to read the error channel of the 1541.  This program will do a "validation test" of your floppy disk (that is Line 10).  Then it will read the error channel to see if an error occurred (Lines 20 thru 50).  If there's no problem with the floppy disk, you should see a printout like:  00, OK,00,00

 

If there is a problem with the floppy disk, you'll see something like what is in my screen capture.  This will help tell you what might be wrong with the floppy disk.  Another indicator that something went wrong is when you see the red LED light on the 1541 flashing after the disk stops spinning.

 

If you do a disk directory and the red LED light is flashing, you can use this program to read the error channel without doing a disk validation by just running lines 20 thru 50.  To do that, rather than just entering in RUN, do this:  RUN 20.  This will start the program at line 20 and skip line 10 (which does a validation first).

 

Edited September 9 by Virtualsky
added more information

[johannesmutlu]

22 hours ago, evg2000 said:

so it sounds like side a is corrupted.  bummer.  Maybe someone who live in your country and nearby can create a new disk for you, I'm guess all the games are available on the internet somewhere.  Even if it cost a few dollars for the disk and postage that wouldn't be terrible. Though you would probably be better off getting on the drive alternatives pi1541, etc (then you could make your own disk) or a flash cart solution back bit, kung fu flash, easyflash 3 etc.

 

good luck!
 

Well thanks alot for mentioning this,i personally wouldn’t be surprised if side B was corrupted because once i followed these steps of recentering the reading head into it’s 0 position by typing in 

open 15,8,15”i”:closed15 then i hit return ,

it seemed to work because i was able to bootup side A but i couldn’t load side B 

so i assume side B is corrupted,

so it’s seems like my 1541 diskdrive seems to lack a auto zero sensor,otherwise i didn’t had to follow those steps,

but still,,, am astonished that before i did that,i still could get duckhunt to work,mmm,

Well it wouldn’t be a problem if i could preinstall those wanted roms on the floppy disk if only i got a usb floppy B drive or what if i owned a cassette recorder with mono head and an adjustible speed knob to calibrate it to the exact speed of the c64 dataset drive,then i may could record those roms trough tape2wave convertor on a tape to make duplicated copies of it,

or how about a CD to cassette adaptor with mono head so i could stread those roms as audio file from a certain website or app trough my dataset to load those games that way into my C64 ,but sadly i can’t find a mono CD to cassette adaptor, i own a stereo version of it but that doesn’t work,

oh well who ever knows what the future will hold to us.

[+evg2000]

I would suggest you look into something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/115119832990?hash=item1acdad3f9e:g:JAwAAOSwViNhpewU&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0FIfs2%2F5hWPEEFYepiE0pH%2BINHJyUDs1au2vm06TKl%2BSXCmWAx0l%2FazEP3epiFWqZUNAv40iDV7cdhzPPBwrWlM6zMfU9pP%2F6x1uAtN2s0nS3JMElH4BMMWKlXSVV8X3WoHTczadHqjgwY%2BHTJOy8%2FiANbYJ4Axm153AotSwicxpAKt6WM8j6%2BoqAQ6OozbksIVf9sDw2tFq964p0I4QvSmKRnL%2Fi5slCvNr3AyMDMxCswl5VJ4byTxmpclOeO1pR9Qc1b4ut65h5DhSpKO0Kls%3D|tkp%3ABFBMyOGW_c9i

[johannesmutlu]

1 hour ago, evg2000 said:

I would suggest you look into something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/115119832990?hash=item1acdad3f9e:g:JAwAAOSwViNhpewU&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0FIfs2%2F5hWPEEFYepiE0pH%2BINHJyUDs1au2vm06TKl%2BSXCmWAx0l%2FazEP3epiFWqZUNAv40iDV7cdhzPPBwrWlM6zMfU9pP%2F6x1uAtN2s0nS3JMElH4BMMWKlXSVV8X3WoHTczadHqjgwY%2BHTJOy8%2FiANbYJ4Axm153AotSwicxpAKt6WM8j6%2BoqAQ6OozbksIVf9sDw2tFq964p0I4QvSmKRnL%2Fi5slCvNr3AyMDMxCswl5VJ4byTxmpclOeO1pR9Qc1b4ut65h5DhSpKO0Kls%3D|tkp%3ABFBMyOGW_c9i

Looks awesome and promising, i may consider buying one of these in the near future ,i have already put a sd card based dataset and diskdrive emulator on my wish list on ebay so it’s something i may consider to buy in the near future,but still am happy possessing both the diskdrive and dataset to become part of my collection,it just do look more appealing,but those sd cart emulated versions of it are certainly a must have that’s for sure😁

[Albert]

On 9/7/2023 at 3:05 PM, carlsson said:

It took me much too long to dechiffer 4115 into 1541...

Fixed.

[johannesmutlu]

On 9/10/2023 at 9:25 PM, Albert said:

Fixed.

Well guys, the seller just sended my another floppy with multi roms on it,and guess what,same problem,i can load side A but not side B,why my floppydrive doesn’t see side B ,and means what’s the difference? Are the data stored at a different location wich my diskdrive can’t see???

or do i have to type in a different command to load side B???

or is the reading head out of alignment to read side B and thus only can read side A???

also why is it that i could insidert side A from the floppy disk easily in my diskdrive but side B not so easy,what kind of strange phenominon is this??? i really don’t get it,

also since the seller did tested it,

so can somebody please explain me why on earth i can load side A but not side B,it absolutely drives me insane such mysterious phenominon🥲🥲

Becides that guy told me that i need a 1541 floppy dry drive ||, is that true? Is it true that with the floppy drive 1541C i can only load from side A and not from side B???
thanks alot

 

Edited September 20 by johannesmutlu

[+OLD CS1]

1 hour ago, johannesmutlu said:

Are the data stored at a different location wich my diskdrive can’t see???

or do i have to type in a different command to load side B???

No.  A 1541/C/II is a single-sided floppy drive.  Reading side "B" requires physically flipping the disk.  The drive does not know the difference between the sides.

1 hour ago, johannesmutlu said:

or is the reading head out of alignment to read side B and thus only can read side A???

Same head is used reading the flip-side as the front-side.  Ostensibly the same for the writing drive.

1 hour ago, johannesmutlu said:

or do i have to type in a different command to load side B???

This is an interesting thought.  The problem between the 1541-C and the 1541-II might be that the drive does not detect when the disk is flipped, thus the 1541-C might be trying to use the old directory cached in memory.  Someone else is going to have to chime in on that -- this is just hypothesis.  A way to test that would be to power up the system, put in the flip-side of the disk, and immediately ask for a directory.  If that works, then try loading one of the programs.

1 hour ago, johannesmutlu said:

also why is it that i could insidert side A from the floppy disk easily in my diskdrive but side B not so easy,what kind of strange phenominon is this???

This only makes sense if the disk is misshapen, or there is a tab (like one of those fancy write-protect tabs he has put on the disk) which is snagging something inside the drive.

1 hour ago, johannesmutlu said:

Becides that guy told me that i need a 1541 floppy dry drive ||, is that true? Is it true that with the floppy drive 1541C i can only load from side A and not from side B???

See my thoughts above on the disk change detection.  IIRC, DOS detects a disk change by the toggling of the write protect sensor.  With the tabs in place, that toggling could be defeated, though I expect that a full disk removal and insertion should have the same effect.

 

Anyway, the problems you are having make little sense to me without this fantasy.

On 9/9/2023 at 12:31 PM, johannesmutlu said:

Well it seems to work on side B bUt not side A,mmm.

This is also interesting.  So in this experiment, you could read the directory ($) from side "B" but not side "A".  Leads me again to consider the disk change detection, but it gets into the weeds a little.  Unfortunately, I do not have a 1541-C to test.

[Casey]

Your comments prompted me to have a thought...

 

The 1541 (and all other Commodore drives) rely on the ID characters used when the disk is formatted to know if the disk has been changed.  If both sides of the disk were formatted with the same ID, the drive would not know you changed the disk and that could cause all kinds of problems.

 

The way to know for sure would be to load the directory LOAD "$",8 for side A, look at the 2 characters that come after the disk name.

Turn the disk over and then send the disk drive an Initialize command and then load the directory again for side B:
OPEN 15,8,15,"I0":CLOSE15

LOAD "$",8

 

Then see if the second side directory looks correct (and compare the ID characters to side A).

 

If the same ID was used, you'll have to send the Initialize command each time you change sides of the disk.

 

 

[+OLD CS1]

2 hours ago, Casey said:

If the same ID was used, you'll have to send the Initialize command each time you change sides of the disk.

Ugh... and the only way to change a disk ID after formatting is a sector editor.

[+OLD CS1]

@johannesmutlu It sounds like you have been able to get directories from one of the disks or sides.  Try this: turn on the system (computer and disk drive) and try to load a directory from side "A".  Turn off the system, then turn it back on and try to load a directory from side "B".  Take and post a picture of the directory of each side.  In particular, we need to see the disk name and ID, which are in the first line of the listing (line 0.)  You can hit RUN/STOP if the listing is longer than the screen.

[johannesmutlu]

8 hours ago, OLD CS1 said:

@johannesmutlu It sounds like you have been able to get directories from one of the disks or sides.  Try this: turn on the system (computer and disk drive) and try to load a directory from side "A".  Turn off the system, then turn it back on and try to load a directory from side "B".  Take and post a picture of the directory of each side.  In particular, we need to see the disk name and ID, which are in the first line of the listing (line 0.)  You can hit RUN/STOP if the listing is longer than the screen.

Well that’s the whole problem,i only get a directory list from side A but once i flip the disk to side B,it says nothing found,

and because of that i can’t show the list of both sides