reifsnyderb Posted November 8 Author Share Posted November 8 11 minutes ago, David_P said: FTe's '816 adapter fits in the existing 800xl CPU socket (you need to cut out the middle cross-piece) since the PLD in mounted on the underside of the board. The cross-piece on the system board's socket? Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/356723-w65c02-or-w65c816-on-r1-of-the-advanced-pcb-remake-for-the-atari-800xl/page/5/#findComment-5562151 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+David_P Posted November 8 Share Posted November 8 1 hour ago, reifsnyderb said: The cross-piece on the system board's socket? Precisely. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/356723-w65c02-or-w65c816-on-r1-of-the-advanced-pcb-remake-for-the-atari-800xl/page/5/#findComment-5562196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted November 8 Author Share Posted November 8 27 minutes ago, David_P said: Precisely. Good to know. I'd like to avoid any modifications of the system board socket. Realistically, though, they system board socket gets a little damaged as the pins for any plug-in upgrades tend to spread the sockets. So, it doesn't matter much, anyhow. 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/356723-w65c02-or-w65c816-on-r1-of-the-advanced-pcb-remake-for-the-atari-800xl/page/5/#findComment-5562206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piotr D. Kaczorowski Posted November 9 Share Posted November 9 Quote General, I didn't see any problem with cartridges (like using one from @jhusak or from @GienekP but AVG has some troubles e.g. freeze screen with LOADING FILE, cannot return to main screen after reset and so on. I'll plan to investigate it because it's my favorite tool to work.! The board is based on Pasiu's (the Rapidus designer) schematic. On the Facebook group "Atari 8bit Upgrades & Repair," there is a video of the setup running. 1. the 65C816 is stable, 2. SIDE 3.1 is working very well. 3. but there is also an issue with AVG. It has been tested with LS and HCT components. The following chips were inserted into the Atari board: 74LS08, 74F08, 74HCT08, and the O2/Fixer (AHCT gates with caps to make NMOS shape of the clock signal). In the case of the O2/Fixer, there were disturbances with SIDE3.1 (menu issues), and AVG was not detected by the computer at all—it went straight to BASIC. When launching SIDE3.1 SDX 4.50, there is no COLD BOOT (at least on the XE). I’ll be able to check this on the 800XL tomorrow or on Monday. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/356723-w65c02-or-w65c816-on-r1-of-the-advanced-pcb-remake-for-the-atari-800xl/page/5/#findComment-5562860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted November 9 Author Share Posted November 9 On 11/7/2024 at 7:09 PM, Mathy said: Hello Brian It would be a lot of work, but you could move the ICs that need more headroom to a different spot. Sincerely Mathy I re-designed the board by add a buffer chip, for the data bus, and changing the PLD to the SMD version. The 20 pin SMD adapter, for programming the SMD version of the ATF16V8B, has been ordered. A new adapter board was also ordered. If this all works, it will be one of the most compact W65C816 adapters ever. 3 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/356723-w65c02-or-w65c816-on-r1-of-the-advanced-pcb-remake-for-the-atari-800xl/page/5/#findComment-5562867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piotr D. Kaczorowski Posted November 9 Share Posted November 9 7 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said: I re-designed the board by add a buffer chip, for the data bus, and changing the PLD to the SMD version. The 20 pin SMD adapter, for programming the SMD version of the ATF16V8B, has been ordered. A new adapter board was also ordered. If this all works, it will be one of the most compact W65C816 adapters ever. A buffer chip should address the most demanding compatibility issues. It’s likely that with a configuration close to the stock Atari setup, this won’t matter, but the more additional components created by independent and various authors, the greater the chance that such a buffer will be useful. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/356723-w65c02-or-w65c816-on-r1-of-the-advanced-pcb-remake-for-the-atari-800xl/page/5/#findComment-5562872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted November 9 Author Share Posted November 9 New adapter design.... 4 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/356723-w65c02-or-w65c816-on-r1-of-the-advanced-pcb-remake-for-the-atari-800xl/page/5/#findComment-5562873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted November 9 Author Share Posted November 9 7 minutes ago, Piotr D. Kaczorowski said: A buffer chip should address the most demanding compatibility issues. It’s likely that with a configuration close to the stock Atari setup, this won’t matter, but the more additional components created by independent and various authors, the greater the chance that such a buffer will be useful. Hopefully. My scope didn't show the signals clearly. A month or so ago, I bought this logic analyzer, that plugs into the USB port, and figured I'd try it out. However, I had been dragging my feet on it because I had to install Windows software. (I dread installing Windows software that is from many projects because Windows doesn't really like running software.) I was able to get the driver installed successfully, but Pulseview didn't work due to a .dll error. The official attempted fixes didn't work. I may be able to get it working by tracking down the dll file and putting it in the Pulseview directory. Since I already suspected the problem was with the data bus signals, I figured I'd put in the buffer chip and try it out. About my data bus suspicion... The current test adapter wasn't initially working correctly. The W65C816 was failing with the SIDE3 cartridge and displaying odd colors when booting into BASIC. Meanwhile, the W65C02 was working fine. That told me the adapter was mostly ok. I later realized that I didn't have the 10k ohm hold-up resistor network installed on the data bus of the Re-make board. After installing this resistor network, the W65C02 still worked and the W65C816 mostly failed. This proved the problem was clearly related to the data bus and probably related to the signal strength. (When I post that the W65C816 mostly failed, I could still hear the Atari boot-up sounds but had no video.) Next up, I swapped out the ANTIC and GTIA chips. After installing another GTIA chip, the screen appeared and the W65C816 now works fine. Even the SIDE3 cartridge now loads. This all tells me that some GTIA chips may work better than others and that the problem is related to the data bus. (With this information, my guess is that the data bus signals are too weak.) That's when I tried the logic analyzer, got ticked with Windows, and decided I had enough information to proceed with a test board anyhow. 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/356723-w65c02-or-w65c816-on-r1-of-the-advanced-pcb-remake-for-the-atari-800xl/page/5/#findComment-5562880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piotr D. Kaczorowski Posted November 9 Share Posted November 9 4 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said: This all tells me that some GTIA chips may work better... Well.. We are still dealing with NMOS. So, each GTIA is different. Some GTIAs may perform better in the context of new projects, which usually rely on CMOS. We’re both in the IT field, so you know that if you have two GTIAs at home, and one works while the other doesn’t, it’s likely to be the same or even worse for others. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/356723-w65c02-or-w65c816-on-r1-of-the-advanced-pcb-remake-for-the-atari-800xl/page/5/#findComment-5562884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted November 9 Author Share Posted November 9 6 minutes ago, Piotr D. Kaczorowski said: Well.. We are still dealing with NMOS. So, each GTIA is different. Some GTIAs may perform better in the context of new projects, which usually rely on CMOS. We’re both in the IT field, so you know that if you have two GTIAs at home, and one works while the other doesn’t, it’s likely to be the same or even worse for others. In retrospect, having the GTIA failure was a good thing. It showed me there was still some improvement needed. Hopefully the next adapter works perfectly. 🙂 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/356723-w65c02-or-w65c816-on-r1-of-the-advanced-pcb-remake-for-the-atari-800xl/page/5/#findComment-5562890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piotr D. Kaczorowski Posted November 9 Share Posted November 9 1 minute ago, reifsnyderb said: In retrospect, having the GTIA failure was a good thing. It showed me there was still some improvement needed. Hopefully the next adapter works perfectly. 🙂 We should correct it against AVG, because is quite popular and usually very stable. Maybe @tmp might suggest what could be causing AVG to stop while reading SD cards. 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/356723-w65c02-or-w65c816-on-r1-of-the-advanced-pcb-remake-for-the-atari-800xl/page/5/#findComment-5562891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+scorpio_ny Posted November 9 Share Posted November 9 59 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said: After installing another GTIA chip, the screen appeared and the W65C816 now works fine. Even the SIDE3 cartridge now loads. This all tells me that some GTIA chips may work better than others and that the problem is related to the data bus. (With this information, my guess is that the data bus signals are too weak.) That's when I tried the logic analyzer, got ticked with Windows, and decided I had enough information to proceed with a test board anyhow. Were the GTIA chips made by the same manufacturer or different manufacturers? Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/356723-w65c02-or-w65c816-on-r1-of-the-advanced-pcb-remake-for-the-atari-800xl/page/5/#findComment-5562910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted November 9 Author Share Posted November 9 31 minutes ago, scorpio_ny said: Were the GTIA chips made by the same manufacturer or different manufacturers? Chips marked with "OKI" didn't work and chips marked with "DKI" worked. The OKI chips were made in Japan. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/356723-w65c02-or-w65c816-on-r1-of-the-advanced-pcb-remake-for-the-atari-800xl/page/5/#findComment-5562922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
reifsnyderb Posted November 9 Author Share Posted November 9 (edited) Here's the rendering of the 800XL W65C816 system board I ordered: It could, optionally, work with the W65C02. Edited November 9 by reifsnyderb 3 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/356723-w65c02-or-w65c816-on-r1-of-the-advanced-pcb-remake-for-the-atari-800xl/page/5/#findComment-5562924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piotr D. Kaczorowski Posted November 9 Share Posted November 9 43 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said: Chips marked with "OKI" didn't work and chips marked with "DKI" worked. The OKI chips were made in Japan. IMHO there’s a 100% chance that you’ll find other DKI chips that won’t work. NMOS is early digital technology, and its properties tend to fall within a range rather than a specific value. So, you might encounter two chips with parameters at the extreme ends of these ranges, and those likely won’t work. 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/356723-w65c02-or-w65c816-on-r1-of-the-advanced-pcb-remake-for-the-atari-800xl/page/5/#findComment-5562948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piotr D. Kaczorowski Posted November 9 Share Posted November 9 During testes... Here is adapter 65C816 inside "almost" stock Atari XE motherboard + Synertek Sally. Adapter has 74HCT00 + 74HCT74 logic: Here is comparision of PHI2 signals generated by the adapter (green signal) and Sally (yellow signal). The goal is to add passive components that adjust the green signal to match the yellow one - follow the idea of Alex Martin. 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/356723-w65c02-or-w65c816-on-r1-of-the-advanced-pcb-remake-for-the-atari-800xl/page/5/#findComment-5562968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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