PiRTO preview - New RTO multicart powered by Raspberry Pico

[aotta]

@Crash7: two weeks ago i bought on ebay a second NTSC Inty II for 27$, for testing my PiRTO: why don't you buy a true Intellivision too, instead of getting angry because the RTO doesn't work with your Super Video Arcade?

[mr_me]

3 hours ago, aotta said:

@Crash7: two weeks ago i bought on ebay a second NTSC Inty II for 27$, for testing my PiRTO: why don't you buy a true Intellivision too, instead of getting angry because the RTO doesn't work with your Super Video Arcade?

There are two reports of it not working with a 2609 model, there are several logic board revisions among 2609 Intellivisions. INTV and Super Pro systems use the same logic board as the 2609, other than the 1987 and 1988 revisions. Sears SVA use the same logic board as 2609 Intellivisions, exec rom only difference.

 

Do you expect the Pi based cartridge to have similar compatibility issues?

Edited March 10 by mr_me

[aotta]

4 hours ago, mr_me said:

There are two reports of it not working with a 2609 model, there are several logic board revisions among 2609 Intellivisions. INTV and Super Pro systems use the same logic board as the 2609, other than the 1987 and 1988 revisions. Sears SVA use the same logic board as 2609 Intellivisions, exec rom only difference.

 

Do you expect the Pi based cartridge to have similar compatibility issues?

Well, RTO and PiRTO are GI Rom emulator, and they works fine in all Intellivisions i and my friends tested them.

But, it use computed delays to emulate the CPU BAR/ADAR/DW etcs cycles, that are different depending on the console CPU clocks, and so by the Quartzs that are used on the consoles.

Since NTSC, PAL and Secam consoles use differents Quartz oscyllators, the timing its a little different from console to console.

RTO use the much faster Teensy 4.1 MPU, so it works fine in both my NTSC and PAL consoles, but a French friends had to change the delay for its Secam one.

With the slower RP2040 used by the PICO, i had to write different code with different delays for having working PiRTO for my INTYs II NTSC and my PAL Intys.

 

So, there aren't compatibility issues, but the code in bot RTO and PiRTO may have to be adjusted for each kind of console.

I don't have any 2609 NTSC console, so i can't test it, but there is no theoretical or logic reason why it should be different from others NTSC machines, if it use the same quartz clock.

 

Same considerations value for Sears SVA consoles.

 

RTP and PiRTO are free multicard that everyone has a bit of HW and SW knowlege could assembly himself, and since now i got dozens of positive and gracefully feedbacks from guys all over the world (well, most are from Italy and EU). The only non working RTOs I heard were NON working RTOs (bad PICO, bad 74lvc245 ICs, bad soldering). 

 

So, i don't know if the xxRTO work on all intellivisions of the world. But i was thinking about the Donkey Kong and Carnival carts that don't work on Inty II consoles, but noone spent so many time in asking Coleco to publish videos of the game working! 

 

Edited March 10 by aotta
corrected some typos

[Crash7]

8 hours ago, aotta said:

@Crash7: two weeks ago i bought on ebay a second NTSC Inty II for 27$, for testing my PiRTO: why don't you buy a true Intellivision too, instead of getting angry because the RTO doesn't work with your Super Video Arcade?

I also tested it on, as of 20 months ago, a sealed, never opened, 1981 original INTV unit.

 

The very console for the person that I bought it for. 

 

It did not work.  It got as far as my other Super Pro System that has an INTV I EXEC file in it:   

 

It showed the RTO title screen, and the title screens of both the Mickey's game, and Venture that you sent me. 

 

And that's as far as it went. 

 

I know people on this forum, who have INTV II units, and they cannot get that cart to work either.  

 

I have no doubt, that *your* products work.    

[Crash7]

56 minutes ago, aotta said:

But i was thinking about the Donkey Kong and Carnival carts that don't work on Inty II consoles, but noone spent so many time in asking Coleco to publish videos of the game working! 

 

 

But the difference is right on the box of the U.S. versions of Carnival? Donkey Kong after they realized they had problems?

 

"Not for use with Intellivision II" 

 

Maybe it's just me, but if I was designing a product that I was charging people for? I would not release it to the public, without doing the proper testing and due diligence on it.  

 

What's the harm in sending one of those cartridges to people that have a different version of this system to see if it works, before you release it?

 

Hell, offer them the same deal I did: 

 

If you test it? And it works? You have the option of buying it.  If not? Just send it back.

 

But at least they would know, BEFORE they spent one dime, that it worked in their consoles, and the designer would know, before he released it to the public, that he needed to do more work if it doesn't.

 

It's called effort and honesty.   

 

 

 

 

Edited March 10 by Crash7

[aotta]

@Crash7 i don't want reopen the discussion about your RTO, but i apologize didn't remind you already tested it with an Inty II.

Well, RTO and PiRTO definitely work on Inty II, if your doesn't that may be for several reasons (and DOA products happens for new and featured goods too).

I didn't write "not for use with SVA" because i don't know if it so. 

All DIY projects are with no guarantee for default. Noone on Github remind users to not use while having a bath or or soaking them in coffee, since they aren't commercial products but projects by enthusiasts for enthusiasts..

I do not have to convince anyone to buy my RTO, it is a gift I have given to the Intellivision community, and I have had the accolades from those who have the expertise and intellectual honesty to admit the usefulness of my work.
5-11under produced a small batch of RTOs for those who were unable to do it themselves or did not have a friend who could solder some boards. Given how much a teensy4.1 costs, I don't think he bought himself a Ferrari with the earnings, and that he was making a DIY project (albeit slightly modified) he made that clear right away.
I imagine he tested the RTOs before shipping them (but I'll leave  him to confirm) so I don't see what other blame to place on him.

All we have seen @5-11under's video with his working PiRTO on an intyII, i could suggest him to stop this silly RTOwar and that he could think on a special discount for @Crash7 for it?  

Edited March 10 by aotta

[Crash7]

40 minutes ago, aotta said:

@Crash7 i don't want reopen the discussion about your RTO, but i apologize didn't remind you already tested it with an Inty II.

Well, RTO and PiRTO definitely work on Inty II, if your doesn't that may be for several reasons (and DOA products happens for new and featured goods too).

I didn't write "not for use with SVA" because i don't know if it so. 

All DIY projects are with no guarantee for default. Noone on Github remind users to not use while having a bath or or soaking them in coffee, since they aren't commercial products but projects by enthusiasts for enthusiasts..

I do not have to convince anyone to buy my RTO, it is a gift I have given to the Intellivision community, and I have had the accolades from those who have the expertise and intellectual honesty to admit the usefulness of my work.
5-11under produced a small batch of RTOs for those who were unable to do it themselves or did not have a friend who could solder some boards. Given how much a teensy4.1 costs, I don't think he bought himself a Ferrari with the earnings, and that he was making a DIY project (albeit slightly modified) he made that clear right away.
I imagine he tested the RTOs before shipping them (but I'll leave  him to confirm) so I don't see what other blame to place on him.

All we have seen @5-11under's video with his working PiRTO on an intyII, i could suggest him to stop this silly RTOwar and that he could think on a special discount for @Crash7 for it?  

 

There is no war.

 

No need for a discount.  

 

But I appreciate the thought. 

[mr_me]

2 hours ago, Crash7 said:

I also tested it on, as of 20 months ago, a sealed, never opened, 1981 original INTV unit.

 

The very console for the person that I bought it for. 

 

It did not work.  It got as far as my other Super Pro System that has an INTV I EXEC file in it:   

 

It showed the RTO title screen, and the title screens of both the Mickey's game, and Venture that you sent me. 

 

And that's as far as it went. 

 

I know people on this forum, who have INTV II units, and they cannot get that cart to work either.  

 

I have no doubt, that *your* products work.    

Do you mean an INTV System III or Mattel model 2609 for your friend's system? I assume your version of the RTO cartridge had the default delay values programmed to work on an Intellivision II. 

 

And there are revisions with Intellivision II logic boards as well.  But all ntsc Intellivisions have the same crystal oscillator specifications. It is fine tuned with a variable capacitor so it's possible they can be slightly out of spec.

 

edit:

And I think your Super Pro System with the original Exec has the rare INTV 1988 board revision (tutorvision board). Your Super Pro System with an Intellivision II Exec likely has a board similar to what's in a model 2609.

Edited March 10 by mr_me

[aotta]

10 minutes ago, mr_me said:

And there are revisions with Intellivision II logic boards as well.  But all ntsc Intellivisions have the same crystal oscillator specifications. It is fine tuned with a variable capacitor so it's possible they can be slightly out of spec.

Interesting! i realized just now there's the C17 capacitor on Inty II that might "vary" the clock freq, and it could be reasons why i get some different behaviour from different consoles!

(i also discovered just now reading the Inty II service manual about not to use ferrous adjustment tools on RF modulator's core, that's why i have no more video from it! 😁)

[wolfy62]

3 hours ago, aotta said:

 

So, i don't know if the xxRTO work on all intellivisions of the world. But i was thinking about the Donkey Kong and Carnival carts that don't work on Inty II consoles, but noone spent so many time in asking Coleco to publish videos of the game working! 

 

There is a great possibility this is because the internet or video posting didn't exist in 1983. Just sayin'!😄

[aotta]

23 minutes ago, wolfy62 said:

There is a great possibility this is because the internet or video posting didn't exist in 1983. Just sayin'!😄

Ah, good old time! 😂

[Crash7]

3 hours ago, mr_me said:

Do you mean an INTV System III or Mattel model 2609 for your friend's system? I assume your version of the RTO cartridge had the default delay values programmed to work on an Intellivision II. 

 

And there are revisions with Intellivision II logic boards as well.  But all ntsc Intellivisions have the same crystal oscillator specifications. It is fine tuned with a variable capacitor so it's possible they can be slightly out of spec.

 

edit:

And I think your Super Pro System with the original Exec has the rare INTV 1988 board revision (tutorvision board). Your Super Pro System with an Intellivision II Exec likely has a board similar to what's in a model 2609.

 

 

1981 box AKA the one that looks like it has wood paneling on it. 

 

 

 

Both of my Super Pro System's are non-Tutor. 

 

 

 

One has an INTV I EXEC and the one that I do my deck playing on has an INTV II EXEC, that's why the Coleco US versions don't run in it. 

 

[Tissemon]

I've ordered 10 PCBs and all the stuff that is needed to make them. The Picos from a Swedish trusted vendor and the SN74LVC245ANs, the SD-card-module and the capacitors from different sellers on AliExpress.

 

Took a while for me to realize it was the 74LVC245s that were the problem. With the AliExpress ICs the timings were completely off, and I could only get to the menu of the cart if I used the NTSC-settings on my PAL Intellivision. And even then, I couldn't start any games. Aotta has been very kind and have helped me a lot with testing and other stuff, but we couldn't get it to work, whatever I tried.

 

So I ordered 4 new 74LVC245s from my trusted Swedish vendor to compare. So I put together a new PCB with sockets, so I could compare the chips. And with these new chips and the PAL-firmware on the Pi Pico, the cart worked on my Intellivision right away! (Well almost right away - I also noticed that it is very important that all pins have connection in the connector - if not the games can crash a bit at random)

I havn't got much trouble with stuff I've ordered on AliExpress before, but this time I got 40 faulty ICs.

Not so fun, so I'm working on getting a refund for them, so I can buy new ones for twice the price from my Swedish vendor instead (I don't feel like gambling on any more Ali-chips right now)

 

As proof I found out an easy way to measure if your chips are good or not - Connect the board to your computer and the ICs will get 3,3V on VCC-pin. On the good chips all address pins will then show 0V (or very near 0) and on the bad ones I got around 1-3V on all address pins. There actually was one chip that I tested from AliExpress that had 0V on the address pins as well - but when I tried it in my Intellivision, it still wouldn't work.

 

But to summarize - if your cart won't start on with PAL firmware on a PAL Intellivision, but starts if you try it with NTSC firmware on a PAL Intellivison - it's probably because of one or more faulty SN74LVC245AN.

[cataylox]

Let the fun begin

 

[Tissemon]

Made some progress in making a couple of extra carts that will be for sale in Sweden in a while. Complete with overlays/instructions, minibox, shell and sd-card  

[Tissemon]

I think I just found a bug with the File Browser: I've got Crazy Clones (1981)(-)(PD).bin in a folder and Adventure (USA, Europe) (Intellivision Lives!).bin in another folder. And it seems that when you have a file with - or ! in its name, the file selector won't show that file or any other file that comes after it. Might be other characters that trigger the same effect, such as , or . (I havn't tested very much yet). These files can be shown on the regular RTO, so it's a bit odd, I think.

I might look in to how to fix this later, but if anybody else has a quick fix to this, please post it here.

[aotta]

17 minutes ago, Tissemon said:

I think I just found a bug with the File Browser: I've got Crazy Clones (1981)(-)(PD).bin in a folder and Adventure (USA, Europe) (Intellivision Lives!).bin in another folder. And it seems that when you have a file with - or ! in its name, the file selector won't show that file or any other file that comes after it. Might be other characters that trigger the same effect, such as , or . (I havn't tested very much yet). These files can be shown on the regular RTO, so it's a bit odd, I think.

I might look in to how to fix this later, but if anybody else has a quick fix to this, please post it here.

It's not because the special char, but due to too long name. When the filename lenght overflow the array lenght, it stop reading directory. Just avoid too long name, remove intellivision lives and enjoy the game!

[Tissemon]

20 hours ago, aotta said:

It's not because the special char, but due to too long name. When the filename lenght overflow the array lenght, it stop reading directory. Just avoid too long name, remove intellivision lives and enjoy the game!

Ah, yes, you are right, it wasn't Crazy Clones that broke it for me, it was the game that came after: Deep Pockets - Super Pro Pool and Billiards (1990)(Realtime).bin.

But exactly how long is the limit for filenames in PiRTO? The arrays defined with 60 characters, but Adventure (USA, Europe) (Intellivision Lives!).bin is only 50 characters, but can't be shown.

I've got quite a few games on my SD-card with names longer than 50, the longest having 74 characters. Would it be possible to make the PiRTO support at least 80 characters (255 characters would probably be optimal, since that is what the FAT32 standard supports, but 80 is probably more than enough for most of us.)

I remember that I changed the limit to 100 characters myself easily on the RTO, but when I tried doing the same on the PiRTO now, the files wouldn't show up correctly...

[aotta]

1 hour ago, Tissemon said:

Would it be possible to make the PiRTO support at least 80 characters (255 characters would probably be optimal, since that is what the FAT32 standard supports, but 80 is probably more than enough for most of us.)

I remember that I changed the limit to 100 characters myself easily on the RTO, but when I tried doing the same on the PiRTO now, the files wouldn't show up correctly...

From a quick look at the code, the name should be within 54 chars  without suffix, and not greater than 59 chars. But names' matrix is also used to show menu on Inty's screen (with some memcpy() command that should be reviewed), and names on Intellivision's menu must be shorter than 20 chars.

But, above all, i'm not interested in supporting long filenames (i hate PD and HB names with tons of ((())) with years, authors, notes and so on! 😁) and continue suggesting to rename the filename in a shorter and clearly way

[+5-11under]

FYI, I've got a few experimental PiRTOs available, at my store at https://videogamepcbs.com/10-products

[YannAros]

On 3/12/2024 at 9:29 AM, Tissemon said:

I've ordered 10 PCBs and all the stuff that is needed to make them. The Picos from a Swedish trusted vendor and the SN74LVC245ANs, the SD-card-module and the capacitors from different sellers on AliExpress.

 

Took a while for me to realize it was the 74LVC245s that were the problem. With the AliExpress ICs the timings were completely off, and I could only get to the menu of the cart if I used the NTSC-settings on my PAL Intellivision. And even then, I couldn't start any games. Aotta has been very kind and have helped me a lot with testing and other stuff, but we couldn't get it to work, whatever I tried.

 

So I ordered 4 new 74LVC245s from my trusted Swedish vendor to compare. So I put together a new PCB with sockets, so I could compare the chips. And with these new chips and the PAL-firmware on the Pi Pico, the cart worked on my Intellivision right away! (Well almost right away - I also noticed that it is very important that all pins have connection in the connector - if not the games can crash a bit at random)

I havn't got much trouble with stuff I've ordered on AliExpress before, but this time I got 40 faulty ICs.

Not so fun, so I'm working on getting a refund for them, so I can buy new ones for twice the price from my Swedish vendor instead (I don't feel like gambling on any more Ali-chips right now)

 

As proof I found out an easy way to measure if your chips are good or not - Connect the board to your computer and the ICs will get 3,3V on VCC-pin. On the good chips all address pins will then show 0V (or very near 0) and on the bad ones I got around 1-3V on all address pins. There actually was one chip that I tested from AliExpress that had 0V on the address pins as well - but when I tried it in my Intellivision, it still wouldn't work.

 

But to summarize - if your cart won't start on with PAL firmware on a PAL Intellivision, but starts if you try it with NTSC firmware on a PAL Intellivison - it's probably because of one or more faulty SN74LVC245AN.

IMG_8065.MOV

It seems that I have the same issue with 74LVC245 bought from Aliexpress, I managed to launch some games after several trials using the NTSC firmware on a PAL(SECAM) Intellivision.

 

Regarding SECAM Intellivisions, it exists 2 variants, the first one (usually PN start with P2 or P3) are modified PAL versions, the piRTO should work on those.

The other variant (PN starts with RH) is a native SECAM variant, once my piRTO will work I'll check how it works on those, however I do not believe the clock is different at PAL and SECAM share the same frequencies, only the color encoding (chroma) is done differently.

[+Steve Jones]

On 3/28/2024 at 2:31 PM, 5-11under said:

FYI, I've got a few experimental PiRTOs available, at my store at https://videogamepcbs.com/10-products

Harvey, I just ordered one, worth checking out.

[rietveld]

21 hours ago, Steve Jones said:

Harvey, I just ordered one, worth checking out.

I just ordered his Arcadia cart. 

 

I have an LTO (the one you delivered to me in person.  Thanks) but for the price I also think that the new intv cart is worth looking at

[Dwarfboysim]

Will this go from Experimental to Production in the future?

 

[utri007]

Very simple question, what kind of screws are needed for a 3D printed case?