PAL Users - Need Your Input For 7800 Palette Implementation

[Trebor]

There are many factors that influence the colors we see for the 7800 system.  

The two most prominent ones are display type - CRT or Modern (I.E. LCD), and warmup factor.

 

So, let's take a vote.  

PAL users, from the below screen captures...

 

...Which group best demonstrates the palette colors experienced most consistently under your original 7800 PAL console system and display combination?

 

SET A

 

 

SET B

 

 

SET C

 

 

SET D

 

 

SET E

 

 

SET F

 

Click on any of the above sets to blow image up larger. 

 

Majority vote will determine what palette will be submitted for implementation under the 2600+, respecting 7800 PAL colors interpretation.

[pseudografx]

While I'd like to be of help, unfortunately I do not own any of the games in the screenshots. The only ones I have are Food Fight, Jinks, Joust and Pole Position II.

[DEANJIMMY]

4 hours ago, Trebor said:

There are many factors that influence the colors we see for the 7800 system.  

The two most prominent ones are display type - CRT or Modern (I.E. LCD), and warmup factor.

 

So, let's take a vote.  

PAL users, from the below screen captures...

 

...Which group best demonstrates the palette colors experienced most consistently under your original 7800 PAL console system and display combination?

 

SET A

 

 

SET B

 

 

SET C

 

 

SET D

 

 

SET E

 

 

SET F

 

Click on any of the above sets to blow image up larger. 

 

Majority vote will determine what palette will be submitted for implementation under the 2600+, respecting 7800 PAL colors interpretation.

Could you please add the first screen of Choplifter!

 

Yes, so hard to calibrate it in your head, as any TV gives you different results too😊

But when I moved my 2600+ between Samsung and Sony, Commando looked the same on V1.0.

 

V1.0 was Set C?

V1.1 Rev2 is Set F? (or B?)

 

IRL my Xevious Rev2 looks like B/F but Commando like F, so Rev2 is F?

 

Just looking at the pictures I would vote for A but Choplifter would help me there really!

 

I wonder if I find other games which represent the palette well.

 

Choplifter might really help (color of the ground and the US flag) hope it is not too late to edit the pictures?

 

Many thanks for this poll!

 

Edited February 9 by DEANJIMMY

[JetmanUK]

I'd love to vote on this and I have these two games, but I don't know how they looked on original hardware on a CRT. I feel like that should be the yardstick for how the developers intended the game to look.

 

Of course TV settings on the CRT would vary from player to player too. I feel this is hard to get exactly correct... but Xevious definitely isn't set in a desert.  💁🏻🤣

 

EDIT

Maybe I should download a 7800 emulator and try these two out and see which I find most 'pleasing', but I feel that there must be some games which determine the most correct pallete.

Edited February 9 by JetmanUK

[DEANJIMMY]

2 hours ago, JetmanUK said:

I'd love to vote on this and I have these two games, but I don't know how they looked on original hardware on a CRT. I feel like that should be the yardstick for how the developers intended the game to look.

 

Of course TV settings on the CRT would vary from player to player too. I feel this is hard to get exactly correct... but Xevious definitely isn't set in a desert.  💁🏻🤣

 

EDIT

Maybe I should download a 7800 emulator and try these two out and see which I find most 'pleasing', but I feel that there must be some games which determine the most correct pallete.

I can compare it with real HW and will do it for Choplifter tonight.

I was sure they are not the same in Commando, Galaga and Xevious when I saw it. But Choplifter needs to be added to the poll pictures to make a good decission.

 

It varies from Console to console of course. RF or AV mod? French SCART PAL?

In the 7800 there are two potentiometer to adjust the color, one 2600, the other 7800.

Many consoles were a bit off out of the box.

And then the TV settings.

 

So it will never be the same everywhere, it is just about to keep the tedendancy right, which is not the case on Rev2!

 

Commando ground is brown. No matter if dark or light brown but it should not get a green touch.

 

Xevious should look green and not brown like a desert.

 

The green Galaga enemy should not be yellow/ brown.

 

The Choplifter ground should be something like ocher yellow (not bright yellow or even green) and the US flag should have the well known colors.

 

If you get those 4 games right, the rest will be Ok.

 

I add an example of Commando AV mod vs Rev2, Galaga SCART vs Rev2.

 

For Choplifter I need to shoot new pics, havn't tested it yet.

Edited February 9 by DEANJIMMY

[Trebor]

7 hours ago, DEANJIMMY said:

Could you please add the first screen of Choplifter!

SET A

 

 

SET B

 

 

SET C

 

 

SET D

 

SET E

 

 

SET F

 

10 hours ago, pseudografx said:

While I'd like to be of help, unfortunately I do not own any of the games in the screenshots. The only ones I have are Food Fight, Jinks, Joust and Pole Position II.

I'll have those up either late today or tomorrow.  I'm presuming the start of Fuji track for PP II, unless you had something else in mind.

[JetmanUK]

1 hour ago, DEANJIMMY said:

I can compare it with real HW and will do it for Choplifter tonight.

I was sure they are not the same in Commando, Galaga and Xevious when I saw it. But Choplifter needs to be added to the poll pictures to make a good decission.

 

It varies from Console to console of course. RF or AV mod? French SCART PAL?

In the 7800 there are two potentiometer to adjust the color, one 2600, the other 7800.

Many consoles were a bit off out of the box.

And then the TV settings.

 

So it will never be the same everywhere, it is just about to keep the tedendancy right, which is not the case on Rev2!

 

Commando ground is brown. No matter if dark or light brown but it should not get a green touch.

 

Xevious should look green and not brown like a desert.

 

The green Galaga enemy should not be yellow/ brown.

 

The Choplifter ground should be something like ocher yellow (not bright yellow or even green) and the US flag should have the well known colors.

 

If you get those 4 games right, the rest will be Ok.

 

I add an example of Commando AV mod vs Rev2, Galaga SCART vs Rev2.

 

For Choplifter I need to shoot new pics, havn't tested it yet.

Gotcha.

Well, if test those games, which of the choices, A to F is closest? 

[pseudografx]

23 minutes ago, Trebor said:

I'll have those up either late today or tomorrow.  I'm presuming the start of Fuji track for PP II, unless you had something else in mind.

That would definitely do, thanks!

[DEANJIMMY]

10 minutes ago, JetmanUK said:

Gotcha.

Well, if test those games, which of the choices, A to F is closest? 

So far I would say it is A.

Found a photo of my real 7800 on Retrotink

 

So I would say A is the best to go for.

 

When I start Choplifter on the 2600+ later today, I might know what was the choice for Rev2 (B or F).

[JetmanUK]

I read what's been said above and headed to YouTube!

After looking at all the photos here and watching numerous videos of each game I think that A is probably the best option.

 

If I was to select a second choice it's tough to decide between D and E.

The rest are not difficult, I feel they shouldn't even be in the race.

 

As I have said above though, I feel that people with original hardware may be able to give a more informed opinion than me.

[DEANJIMMY]

2 hours ago, JetmanUK said:

I read what's been said above and headed to YouTube!

After looking at all the photos here and watching numerous videos of each game I think that A is probably the best option.

 

If I was to select a second choice it's tough to decide between D and E.

The rest are not difficult, I feel they shouldn't even be in the race.

 

As I have said above though, I feel that people with original hardware may be able to give a more informed opinion than me.

I will vote for A!

 

Rev2 uses palette F, based on how Xevious and Choplifter look.

Commando, Galaga and Choplifter are not right, Xevious much better but not good.

 

C was the palette of V1.0 and Rev1

Choplifter good, Commando good, Galaga Ok and Xevious was desert brown.

 

On palette A all 4 games should look good!

 

D an E will give Choplifter the wrong ground color. 

Pics are Original PAL 7800, 2600+ palette F, youtube selection (green loses 1:4).

Many machines were sold with wrong adjustment of the potentiometer. I have 3 7800 PAL machines. 2 gave ocher / yellow ground in Chopliter, third was green and got corrected by a 1mm move of the potentiometer.

 

Long story short: Lets try palette A😊

 

Edited February 9 by DEANJIMMY

[Glorkbot]

I’ve never played any pal games so I probably shouldn’t vote, but A looks best.

[DEANJIMMY]

48 minutes ago, Glorkbot said:

I’ve never played any pal games so I probably shouldn’t vote, but A looks best.

If you take Choplifter into account, definitely A😊

[Trebor]

12 hours ago, pseudografx said:

That would definitely do, thanks!

SET A

 

 

SET B

 

 

SET C

 

 

SET D

 

 

SET E

 

 

SET F

 

As with the last group, click on each set of captures to enlarge.

[pseudografx]

So I have two 7800 systems - one is PAL and the other is SECAM. My PAL 7800 does not have a composite/S-Video mod yet so I could only run it through RF. The SECAM system has a factory RGB output (which AFAIK is internally converted from composite). Unfortunately my RetroTink 2x Mini does not accept RF or RGB outputs so I could only take pictures of the screen (an old 15" LCD TV) with my phone. In the end, there are too many factors that may impact the colours. Anyway, here are the images, first the PAL machine, second SECAM.(I only used Pole Position II as in the other games it was hard to spot the differences. I did not do any adjustments to the photos other than perspective correction.)

Edited February 10 by pseudografx

[0078265317]

D looks the best

[DEANJIMMY]

4 hours ago, 0078265317 said:

D looks the best

For Pole Position yes, but Choplifter ground is ugly green if you select D - F which is wrong.

The ground should be ocher/yellow as you play in a desert (look at the buildings with prisoners) and not green.

On the internet you find some green grounds but the majority is ocher yellow.

Some consoles have a off settings and if you turn the potentiometer in a PAL Scart just a little bit, you jump to green. I had to open my

Scart 7800 to turn the potentiometer, to let it look like my RF 7800.

 

The blue sky of Pole Position varies a litle bit from A to D but it is blue😊

Choplifter would jump from yellow/ocher to a (not good looking) green.

 

So I am still with A 😉

[JetmanUK]

3 minutes ago, DEANJIMMY said:

For Pole Position yes, but Choplifter ground is ugly green if you select D - F which is wrong.

The ground should be ocher/yellow as you play in a desert (look at the buildings with prisoners) and not green.

On the internet you find some green grounds but the majority is ocher yellow.

Some consoles have a off settings and if you turn the potentiometer in a PAL Scart just a little bit, you jump to green. I had to open my

Scart 7800 to turn the potentiometer, to let it look like my RF 7800.

 

The blue sky of Pole Position varies a litle bit from A to D but it is blue😊

Choplifter would jump from yellow/ocher to a (not good looking) green.

 

So I am still with A 😉

Looking at them all again, I agree. 👍🏻

[+MrZarniwoop]

12 hours ago, pseudografx said:

So I have two 7800 systems - one is PAL and the other is SECAM. My PAL 7800 does not have a composite/S-Video mod yet so I could only run it through RF. The SECAM system has a factory RGB output (which AFAIK is internally converted from composite).

The French RGB-output Atari 7800 Péritel (SCART) model was internally a PAL 7800 with a Sony V7021 video decoder that converted the signal to RGB.

 

There was a French SECAM output Atari 2600 model that used a PAL TIA in B&W mode and a simple circuit that mapped the eight shades of grey to eight SECAM colors.

[Dionoid]

The colors on my French 7800 with Péritel (RGB-output) look close to Set E, but I like the colors of Set A better.

E.g. on my machine when playing Choplifter, the red stripes in the US flag aren't red but more light brown.

[DEANJIMMY]

21 minutes ago, Dionoid said:

The colors on my French 7800 with Péritel (RGB-output) look close to Set E, but I like the colors of Set A better.

E.g. on my machine when playing Choplifter, the red stripes in the US flag aren't red but more light brown.

Well, it was the same with my Scart 7800, so I opened it and adjusted the colors to match A.

 

If the US flag is brown/red you know something is wrong, as if the desert is green!

 

My other two RF 7800 PAL gave me palette A from the beginning.

I always refered rather to pictures on the net than to a single console.

I had 3 7800, the Scart one was wrong, the 2 RF OK, but after I installed a mod in one RF, I had to adjust it.

[Trebor]

I'll have a couple of groups captures up in a little bit, and want to thank all for their input. The CRT captures were especially helpful.  Placing practical details on the interpretations for the sets listed:

 

A = PAL CRT colors - console palette cool. 

B = PAL CRT colors - console palette warm.

C = PAL CRT colors - console palette hot.

D = PAL LCD - Modern display colors - console palette cool.

E = PAL LCD - Modern display colors - console palette warm.

F = PAL LCD - Modern display colors - console palette hot.

 

As the target back in the day would have been CRT color interpretation for the developers (Though not always the best selections were made), still nonetheless, happy to see it received the majority of the votes.

 

An interesting item, typical for NTSC consoles, they ultimately wind up with a hot palette, though some keep to a warm palette.  For PAL consoles, it appears most ultimately stay in the cool palette range, though some may dabble with a warm palette.

 

SET A palette for 7800 PAL colors is set to be integrated into the next update of 2600+.

[Trebor]

Here are the 'SET A' PAL group samples:

 

 

As usual, click on the sample set to see the image at its larger scale size.

[Dionoid]

3 hours ago, DEANJIMMY said:

Well, it was the same with my Scart 7800, so I opened it and adjusted the colors to match A.

 

If the US flag is brown/red you know something is wrong, as if the desert is green!

Thanks for the suggestion. I just adjusted the 7800 color pot and now the colors indeed match Set A. Much better!!!

It was just a very tiny counter-clockwise rotation of the color pot; I guess over the years, it needed a slight correction.

Edited February 12 by Dionoid

[Trebor]

4 hours ago, Dionoid said:

Thanks for the suggestion. I just adjusted the 7800 color pot and now the colors indeed match Set A. Much better!!!

It was just a very tiny counter-clockwise rotation of the color pot; I guess over the years, it needed a slight correction.

Makes sense - a very tiny correction counter-clockwise can still shave off a full degree of hue spacing (The color pot is typically very sensitive), so instead of warm (~26.7 degrees), it is set to cool (~25.7 degrees) now.