Atari 400 potential purchase

[smoore]

Hi all

 

I'm thinking about buying an Atari 400, it was my first computer and was probably responsible for me working in IT so there's a lot of nostalgia value.

 

I'm after advise on how I would connect the machine a a modern monitor - are there such things as HDMI converters/cables/whatever that will work with a 400?

 

Also, do I need to aware of anything if I was to buy a US model for use in the UK?

 

Many thanks,

 

Simon

 

[Rybags]

To get a decent picture on a monitor you'd be looking at modifications which would also mean putting holes in the shielding and case.

Sophia 2 is probably the cheapest/easiest solution but I don't know about availability.

 

For practical purposes I'd go for an XL or XE.  Easier to work on and modifications can usually be done less obtrusively.

 

In the modern day demand is probably higher for PAL machines since many games and demos won't work on NTSC due to less CPU cycles per frame.

[bfollowell]

With as many new display connections and formats that have  come and gone over the years, the last time I checked, most TVs still come with an old composite input. Depending on what you're wanting to do with it, maybe just a simple SCCC with built-in UAV would be plenty for what you're wanting to do. There are definitely better, newer, digital display options though.

 

@Rybags is probably right though, in that, if you thought you might be interested in other, future upgrades, a 600/800XL may be a better option. It's hard to beat the classic retro-futuristic look of that keyboard though.

 

[Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, smoore said:

Hi all

 

I'm thinking about buying an Atari 400, it was my first computer and was probably responsible for me working in IT so there's a lot of nostalgia value.

 

I'm after advise on how I would connect the machine a a modern monitor - are there such things as HDMI converters/cables/whatever that will work with a 400?

 

Also, do I need to aware of anything if I was to buy a US model for use in the UK?

 

Many thanks,

 

Simon

 

So a few things, as I am assuming from your post that you haven't done any hardware tiinkering or mods with Atari 8 bits?

 

Firstly, if you get a US model it will be ntsc, which means for a lot of pal based European games it won't run them, or the colour pallete will be off, or games will run too fast. 

 

Secondly, the 400 will either come with 48 or 16k stock so again restricts you. It is also rf only. It doesn't have a composite out. 

 

The sccc (super colour cpu board) is a replacement board for the 400's cpu personality board, as well as the 800's Jurgen (tf_hh), makes these to order. I bought one a few weeks back funnily enough to go in my 800.

It requires hooking up some connections inside and some other tweaks. Fairly involved. 

 

The sophia 2 can be installed but again mods to casing and dirext soldering of the sophia 2 to the cpu personality board is needed so the computer can fit back together under its heavy shielding. 

 

As suggested, and assuming all this is sounding like a lot to take in, I would go for an 800xl or 65XE/800XE (both stock 64k) as easiest to get.

 

The 400 might appeal in terms of nostalgia, but a fair amount of work to hook it up.  

 

I'd avoid ntsc (US) machines if you are in the UK. Get pal ones. 

Edited March 13 by Beeblebrox

[xrbrevin]

for 400 SVideo output, i replace the dangly RF lead with a dangly 5-pin DIN socket to make it compatible with the other A8 models

here is the legend:

 

[Beeblebrox]

FYI also there is of course the new 400 mini.

 

See the dedicated posts:

 

 

https://forums.atariage.com/forum/428-the400-mini/

 

[Peri Noid]

In one of my 400 (out of 2) I mounted an SCCC by @tf_hh. In order not to drill any holes, I removed an original RF cable, took a female DIN5 plug mounted on a wire, connected it to SCCC and led it out the same way, which was used by an original RF cable. I wired the plug to get exactly the same pinout as a standard XE machine (I needed to drill a hole in a shielding only), with both Composite and S-Video (and audio of course).

 

PS. The 400 mini may be a good choice for you. The 400 keyboard is just terrible 😉

Edited March 13 by Peri Noid

[desiv]

Love my 400, but it does have it's concerns as a retro machine.

 

The first question I'd ask is, how are you with basic soldering?

 

The reason I ask is that virtually all 400's came with 16k RAM.  Some of the really early ones I understand came with 8k, and some might have been modified to have 48k, but I think 16k is the most likely you'll find.

 

You can pretty easily get it to 48k buy buying an expansion card and doing a bit of soldering on the underside of the main board.  I think it was just two wires?

(It's been a while since I did mine...)

 

And that will get your 400 to where it can run "most" games...   That said, there are some later games/programs that require more than that.  Not a huge number, but they are there, so its something to be aware of...

 

The next (and probably) largest concern is the audio/video output.  As mentioned the 400 by default only supports RF output.

I personally have a nice older CRT TV, so I am still using that.  
But if you want Composite/S-Video, you will need to mod it, either just with some soldering of wires as above, or you'll need to add something like the Super Color CPU card, although I think that also requires some minimal soldering.

But if you are wanting HDMI, you'll still need an adapter to go from composite or s-video to HDMI.

 

And then of course, there is the discussion about the keyboard, which isn't great.

That said, I also have a ZX81 (TS1000) and an Aquarius that might look up to it.  (Yeah, I know the Aquarius is a chicklet compared to the 400's membrane, but I think I prefer the Atari 400 membrane personally..

 

If you are just looking for a machine that can do most everything, you might want to look at a newer model with more RAM.  (Tho you'll still have to work out audio/video out.)

 

That said, I love the look/feel of the Atari 400...

[smoore]

Wow - so many replies with stacks of information - thanks so much!

 

I'll try and address the main points I've gleaned from the posts:

 

• The 400 mini - I ordered as soon as Amazon made it possible so will hopefully be here end of the month. That's destined to sit next to the VCS 800 in the sitting room and will be used on the main TV.
• Limitations of Atari 400 compared to later models - fully aware of that and if I was after the ultimate retro set up I'd go with a fully upgraded 800xl, but it's not a 400.
• For general 8 bit gaming I'm sorted with the VCS 800 running Batocera and Altirra on laptops etc.
• Membrane keyboard is fine from what I can remember, I did buy a stick on rubber keyboard but didn't get on with it - a bit to much like a spectrum and found membrane ok.
• Soldering would be fine, I've never modded 8 bits but have done enough fiddling with audio equipment to be (hopefully) good enough - if not I have a 21 year old son who can help.
• For memory I'd like 48k - I started off with 16k and then had an upgrade fitted in a shop in Birmingham UK - cost nearly £100 I think but at least Captain Stickys Gold then has a high score table!

So what do I do?

 

I think buying a CRT TV would be simpler than modding a machine - I've got the space for one upstairs and there should be some decent bargains around, other than the chancers on eBay.

 

And for the computer, I shall look out for a stock PAL 400, ideally with 48k already installed if not I think the memory can be sourced fairly easily. Nothing currently available on eBay other than one with a dodgy RF signal - mind you I might just chance it.

 

The 400 ticks every box, particularly the nostalgia feel, but to be honest an 800 would work for me - they were just too expensive for my parents and only owned by one of the richer kids I knew.

 

Oh and a joystick and Galaxians on cartridge - an old arcade favourite of mine and playing it on a 400 in a shop in Stafford convinced me that the Atari was the way to go for me.

 

Again, many thanks for the replies, please feel free to suggest other options - and if you know of a 400 or 800 that would fit my criteria, let me know!

 

Regards,

 

Simon

 

 

 

[drpeter]

4 hours ago, xrbrevin said:

for 400 SVideo output, i replace the dangly RF lead with a dangly 5-pin DIN socket to make it compatible with the other A8 models

here is the legend:

 

Hi,

could you possibly post the full instructions or link for this mod?

 

best wishes,

 

Peter

[+MrFish]

38 minutes ago, drpeter said:

could you possibly post the full instructions or link for this mod?

It's the Sal “Kjmann” Esquivel Atari 400 S-Video mod. 

 

Here are the files.

Atari 400 - SVideo (KJMann).zip

 

[Sinjinhawke]

I get it.  I have a 600xl, 800xl and 130xe.  The 800xl is tricked out with Sophia 2, U1MB, SIDE3 and Fujinet so I am set. 

But when I had a chance to get a 400 with aftermarket keyboard cheap I jumped on it.  Bumped it up to 48k and it's pretty nice. 

But like others said there is content it won't run even with 48k.  I even have some game carts that will not run on a 48k 400.

 

I say get the 400 and if a XL or XE jumps in your lap then get it as well.

 

(I also ordered the 400 mini)

 

[mimo]

I'm in the UK and use several NTSC Atari's.
Luckily my old plasma TV and several of my smaller LCDs support NTSC signal on composite and s-video.
For a 400 I can highly recommend SCCC from tf_hh to give fantastic S-video output, this could then be run through an upscaler if you want to invest in that option (retro tink etc but not some cheap ass amazon box)
tf_hh's 48k ram upgrade is also pretty simple to install.
Sophia 2 (grab one whilst you can) will give DVI output which is easy to convert to HDMI with the correct cable, but you will still need to pick up audio from somewhere, so the SCCC comes in handy for that, you will need external speakers or a HDMI audio injector 

If you are anywhere near Leicester I'd be happy to show you my set up(s) and help with any upgrades 

[mimo]

I'd also like to add that these cases are getting quite brittle now, if you do get one shipped from the US I would ask the seller to not ship it with the power supply, useless in the UK and act as a wrecking ball in transit, I receved a totally destroyed 800 from the states due to very poor packaging.
If you can find one in the UK that you can collect in person that is by far the safest way.

[Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, mimo said:

I'd also like to add that these cases are getting quite brittle now, if you do get one shipped from the US I would ask the seller to not ship it with the power supply, useless in the UK and act as a wrecking ball in transit, I receved a totally destroyed 800 from the states due to very poor packaging.
If you can find one in the UK that you can collect in person that is by far the safest way.

Yup, there are tried and tested way to ensure the chances of damage are minimised. Even if the seller thinks they are packing it well, they often don't take into account several factors, not least the machine's own weight and momentum, oritentation and also shipping box size/packaging materials.

 

Key points to request from the seller  - especially if shipping from the states - which is on their best interests also:

 

• Tell them to keep the US PSU. As far as using it in the UK you won't really need to figure out how to, as a cheap and reliable replacement psu, or one you already might have for a 1050 drive for example, will suffice. (See below for links to a good AC psu and end barrel plug adapter which is reliable and won't break the bank.) Plus the original brick PSU is a total wreaking ball as Mimo says. If it rests on any part of the keyboard or casing it can do damage. If it gets loose..... well you may as well just put the machine in a spin drying on max. Guaranteed damage!! If you aren't ever gonna use the US PSU in the UK, no need to risk having it included. The seller can just sell it on, (which can be a good way to bring the price down a little).  
• Ask that the computer is shipped centered in an oversized box, on it's base. It's vital it's shipped on it's base and not on it's side or end. If it's shipped on it's end it'll break under it's own weight. Had this happen many many times with 800s over the years.
• Shipped centered in the box with clearance is also vital. If the casing is touching the inside of the shipping box, any impact the box takes during transit gets transfered to the casing and ...damage occurs. (Again, had this happen many time with 800s where sellers just don't take this advice.
• Make sure the computer has at least 10cm, preferably 15cm of clearance all around when centered in the box. Again, any impact to the shipping box will transfer to the casing, so this minimises the chances of damage considerably if the computer isn't a tight fit in the box. The packaging cushions it from all sides.
• Plenty of bubblewrap around the machine itself, with tape ideally so it cannot get loose.. Also a piece of cardboard over the keys before being wrapped. For mitsumi keyboards this isn't so important, but the more common plunger type 800 keyboards (Stackpole and Hi-tek), have keycaps that can fall out easily. Damage can occur to the plungers if keycaps are rolling about inside or are at an angle. If you crack the already brittle plunger plastic it's a real pain to fix.
• Ask the rf cable and metal plug end is wrapped as it can scratch the casing if just bound up with it.
• Never use JUST foam/polystytrene packing peanuts/chips and nothing else. These might seem like a good idea, but under the weight of the machine these compress, becoming next to useless, or even if they don't, the machine can migrate around the box. (Think balls in a kids ball pit, where you can still move around). Same goes for newspaper, pretty useless for heavy machines like these, especially when it has so much movement over many hours in transit. The best combo I've found that works is lots of bubblewrap wrapped around the machine, then more bubblewrap packed around the machine when it's centered inside the box. Then - if you don't have much bubblewrap, use can do a combo of bubblewrap and polystyrene blocks/sheets. But never just packing peanuts/chips. 
• Lastly  - always ask the seller to put this way up and fragile signage on the box. Another good tip for machines coming overseas, is to ask the seller to put a note in for the customs to pack it they way they found it, just in case it's subjected to a spot check. 

Some sellers get really irate if you ask them for this. They point out things like "I've been selling/shipping items for years and had no issues, blah blah blah". That's all well and good but a lot won't have had experience with a 40+ year old Atari 800. Some don't care. Luckily most accomodate my requests and it all works out. Again, it's in their best interests as the seller for it to have the best chance of arriving intact.

 

Atari 400/800/1200XL UK PSU:

 

Get this one (which I use for my 800 and 9v AC 2amp is fine):https://www.poweradaptorsuk.co.uk/2000ma-2a-9v-18va-acac-ac-output-mains-power-adaptor-162-p.asp

Then get this plug end adapter which converts it from 2.1mm to 2.5mm to fit your 800's power socket:https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174950199535

 

 

Edited March 14 by Beeblebrox

[drpeter]

8 hours ago, Beeblebrox said:

Get this one (which I use for my 800 and 9v AC 2amp is fine):https://www.poweradaptorsuk.co.uk/2000ma-2a-9v-18va-acac-ac-output-mains-power-adaptor-162-p.asp

Can second this- just spent 2hrs googling and searching before reading this post, and this was the one I landed upon. 3000mA AC/AC supplies are not easy to come by, especially at a reasonable price, and 2000mA should be fine for both computer and peripherals- the 1050/810 disk drives might draw very transient higher loads during start-up but that won't cause a problem, both in theory and in practice in long-term use, as reported on this forum.

www.poweradaptorsuk.co.uk do actually advertise a 3000mA adaptor that is similarly priced and doesn't need an adaptor, but it's currently out of stock (don't know when or if it might reappear)

[aeberbach]

You can make a 3A adaptor fairly easily with a Hammond 266K18 transformer, widely available and not expensive. I just uploaded a 3D printed case for it: https://www.printables.com/model/786333-9v-ac-power-brick-for-atari-8-bit

 

(This transformer has dual 115V primary windings so it is suitable around the world. The windings go in parallel in 115VAC countries, in series in 230-40VAC countries. The secondary windings are dual 9V 1.5A, these are wired in parallel.)

 

If not competent with AC power don't do this, have someone do it for you, but it's not a big job. It's working well for me after I received machines requiring AC with no transformers.

Edited March 14 by aeberbach

[Beeblebrox]

32 minutes ago, drpeter said:

Can second this- just spent 2hrs googling and searching before reading this post, and this was the one I landed upon. 3000mA AC/AC supplies are not easy to come by, especially at a reasonable price, and 2000mA should be fine for both computer and peripherals- the 1050/810 disk drives might draw very transient higher loads during start-up but that won't cause a problem, both in theory and in practice in long-term use, as reported on this forum.

www.poweradaptorsuk.co.uk do actually advertise a 3000mA adaptor that is similarly priced and doesn't need an adaptor, but it's currently out of stock (don't know when or if it might reappear)

The 3000ma one won't be in stock again. I used to buy them and they stopped stocking them. When I enquired in 2022 they said they wouldn't be getting any in at all. So the 2000ma became my go to. The only minor inconvenience with these is the need for the separate 2.1mm to 2.5mm barrel adapter. But they are dirt cheap and readily available. So other than that I've bought and used them with 400s, 800s and 1200xl's for near 2 years. 

I am not an electronics expert and I've read about these potentially getting very hot when used with the 1050 and 810 drives, which need more amps. So tend to only use these psu for the aforementioned computers and stick to the 9v AC 3.4amp 27va original power supplies for the drives. 

[+x=usr(1536)]

@tf_hh's Super Colour CPU Card is recommended based on personal experience.  As others have mentioned, it's essentially a UAV for the 400/800, but it's one that requires minimal soldering and has jumpers to select PAL or NTSC based on the C/GTIA and ANTIC in use.  This should rule out the question of which scan type to go for.

[Beeblebrox]

If I can find time this month I'll be installing my recently acquired sccc in my incognito 'd/vbxe' d 800. Every time I plan to set aside time to do it, another A8 hardware project takes me away from it. 

[smoore]

Hi all

 

Thanks again for the excellent advice!

 

@mimo - I'm just outside Lichfield in Staffordshire so not too far from you, would love to come and see your set up and have a chat!

 

Anyway, I had a parcel arrive this week from a UK bay seller containing:

 

Atari 400 expanded to 48k

410 but no power adapter

basic cartridge

 

It has a known issue with the RF output as can be seen:

 

 

This is potentially due to dodgy solder from the 48k expansion - when I get hold of a CRT display I will give it a try, and if not look at the SCCC option.

 

The bay ad said - "Tested working but there is interference on the RF output - I beleive this is due to the 48k upgrade not being "tidy" e.g. loose wire or bad solder joint"

 

My soldering skills aren't up to much but I'm hoping if it is something obvious I'll be ok - just need to puck up the courage to open it up!

 

Very happy with the condition, obviously a bit of yellowing but no cracks anywhere.

 

So my plan now is:

 

1 - get a CRT TV

2 - try and fix RF

3 - if not look at SCCC or something similar

4 - get a power supply for the 410

5 - get some joysticks and cartridges!

 

Not sure if I will go any further than that with the 400 - I'll probably end up looking for an 800xl and start messing about with FUjinet etc. at some point.

 

Very happy to have one of these back in my life - it's the exact set up that I had in 1983 and gave away ti a cousin when the ST range entered my life - which didn't have the same lasting impact in my as the 8 bit days.

 

 

 

[Beeblebrox]

5 minutes ago, smoore said:

SCCC

remember Tf_hh (Jurgen) builds these to order, so order in advace. He's a busy guy.

 

You can email him on the address on his pdf: https://www.van-radecke.de/STUFF/tfhh_HW_info.pdf

[smoore]

55 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

remember Tf_hh (Jurgen) builds these to order, so order in advace. He's a busy guy.

 

You can email him on the address on his pdf: https://www.van-radecke.de/STUFF/tfhh_HW_info.pdf

Brilliant - thanks for the heads up

 

[mimo]

I don't think I've seen RF any better than that tbh, personally I'd just jump in and get an sccc .

Send me a DM and we can try and sort out a meet up 

[smoore]

8 minutes ago, mimo said:

I don't think I've seen RF any better than that tbh, personally I'd just jump in and get an sccc .

Send me a DM and we can try and sort out a meet up 

thanks Mimo - I have sent you a DM

 

Simon