Article about the new Atari Asteroids Recharged arcade games. Has pictures and video

[Lord Mushroom]

11 hours ago, ledzep said:

Which customer, the one who wants the lazy home version or the one who wants an updated arcade version?

Both.

 

11 hours ago, ledzep said:

Right, they "love" them so much they can't lift a finger to go get them.  What do you mean cheap?  These modern consoles and games cost a lot, and many gamers buy custom gamepad controllers so they're willing to spend money, just not money on accurate-to-the-originals controller for whatever reason.

The standard gamepads are cheaper than the specialty controls like steering wheels. They often also come with the console.

 

Specialty controls also only work on a few games. It doesn´t make fiscal sense to buy a steering wheel and gas pedal if you only have one or two racing games. They also require a specific set-up, whereas standard gamepads can be played with in any seating arrangement.

 

11 hours ago, ledzep said:

If what you claim is true about them going to arcades for the exotic controls then classic arcade games would be more popular.  No, they want easy games with few real challenges.  They want to play for 20 minutes and just float around gaining points and "power-ups".

They want exotic controls, straightforward and action-packed gameplay, modern graphics and tickets. They want to play Cruis´n Blast, not Pole Position, and Jurassic Park Arcade, not Lethal Enforcers. That being said, if you put them in a retro arcade, they will gravitate towards games with exotic controls rather than joystick and buttons games. 

 

12 hours ago, ledzep said:

Really.  Based on what? 

Their disappearance from arcades.

 

12 hours ago, ledzep said:

You think nobody uses a mouse (upside down trak-ball) anymore?

 

https://www.trackballmouse.org/trackball-mouse-aviation-military/

https://seatronx.com/products/trackballs/military-trackballs/

I meant on an arcade machine.

 

12 hours ago, ledzep said:

Lightguns are just as old and "obsolete" (worked off of CRT scan lines).

Lightguns, or perhaps I should have said guns, are still prevalent and doing very well in arcades. They disappeared from homes because people switched from CRT-screens, making it much more difficult to make an affordable gun that performs well. People would still want good cheap lightguns if they could get them.

 

It seems the non-CRT home guns are getting better, so perhaps they will become popular again soon.

 

12 hours ago, ledzep said:

Lightguns would make games even easier, what is this obsession with not having to try hard to beat a game?  Do modern gamers not like hard challenges?

Like I said earlier, you can make a game difficult even if the controls are practical.

 

Street Fighter II would have been a more difficult game if there were buttons instead of a joystick. If they had made the difficulty easier to compensate, you would have been left with a much weaker game than the original game with a joystick, simply because of the impractical controls.

 

12 hours ago, ledzep said:

Are you saying you'd rather point a lightgun at an incoming missile and shoot it down that way?  How is that like an arcade simulation of a missile battery control station (the arcade game concept)?

I am not suggesting shooting the missile directly, but telling the missile battery where to shoot with a lightgun.

 

12 hours ago, ledzep said:

Wasn't there a Lunar Lander: Beyond game?  It was weak, but it was new and much expanded from the arcade original.

I stand corrected. There is indeed a Lunar Lander game on its way, and it looks like it has the potential to do well. But as you say, it is very different from the original. I meant that a game with the same gameplay as Lunar Lander wouldn´t succeed.

 

12 hours ago, ledzep said:

I can see a ramped back version more aligned with the arcade original, flying around landing on things, using the thruster and rotation buttons for movement.  Maybe it will never get made but I don't see why it couldn't work.

 

But I see your point, younger gamers expect the games to be easy, even a Recharged Lunar Lander would probably be too much of challenge.

It is not just about challenge, though, that could have been changed. They would find it boring. Not enough action. 

[Lord Mushroom]

Someone may already have mentioned it, but I think the in-game music in Berzerk Recharged should be removed, it ruins the atmosphere. But there could be sinister music when Evil Otto arrives.

[ledzep]

4 minutes ago, Lord Mushroom said:

Both.

 

Sigh.  If you're advocating for one type of arcade game concept and saying it's the right one because "the customer is always right" even if he's an idiot, how do you resolve that down to one type of arcade game concept when many customers are "right" wanting the game one way and many other customers are "right" wanted the game the opposite way?  One arcade implementation cannot satisfy both the lazy home version and an updated arcade version.

 

7 minutes ago, Lord Mushroom said:

The standard gamepads are cheaper than the specialty controls like steering wheels. They often also come with the console.

 

Specialty controls also only work on a few games. It doesn´t make fiscal sense to buy a steering wheel and gas pedal if you only have one or two racing games. They also require a specific set-up, whereas standard gamepads can be played with in any seating arrangement.

 

Ya, I know.  But gamers I know who play the more modern systems have no problem buying better/costlier gamepads.  So money isn't the issue.  It doesn't make fiscal sense to spend hundreds/thousands of dollars on new game consoles and libraries of games in the first place.  That's a money hole.  Not complaining, I've certainly burnt a lot of money on video games (and LEGOs and CDs and movies and...) but I wouldn't say that any of that was fiscally sound.  Since they're in the mood to buy loads of shit, what's one more controller with a trak-ball on it?  Or a real spinner or whatever?

 

11 minutes ago, Lord Mushroom said:

Their disappearance from arcades.

 

That doesn't speak to obsolescence, it speaks to younger players wanted the easy joystick/buttons control schemes.  Because they couldn't handle the more difficult control schemes.  And I would assume the expense of adding trak-balls to arcade games.

 

13 minutes ago, Lord Mushroom said:

I meant on an arcade machine.

 

Why would they be obsolete in one arena and not another?  They're just as useful as ever.  I would say that it's the lack of vision of most current arcade game designers that prevents the wider use of trak-balls or rollers or spinners vs. simple digital joysticks and buttons.

 

15 minutes ago, Lord Mushroom said:

Lightguns, or perhaps I should have said guns, are still prevalent and doing very well in arcades. They disappeared from homes because people switched from CRT-screens, making it much more difficult to make an affordable gun that performs well. People would still want good cheap lightguns if they could get them.

 

It seems the non-CRT home guns are getting better, so perhaps they will become popular again soon.

 

Ya, because younger gamers want easier play.  I can only imagine how overwhelmed they be if they could step into an '80s arcade having to use not-the-easiest/basic control schemes.  Lightgun games are usually pretty boring from what I've seen, it's just too easy to point and shoot at everything.  I hope none of these Recharged arcade games use them.  Unless it's a game made for it, like a first person shooter such as Time Crisis.  Using a lightgun for a game like Centipede or Missile Command would be terrible.

 

18 minutes ago, Lord Mushroom said:

Like I said earlier, you can make a game difficult even if the controls are practical.

 

Street Fighter II would have been a more difficult game if there were buttons instead of a joystick. If they had made the difficulty easier to compensate, you would have been left with a much weaker game than the original game with a joystick, simply because of the impractical controls.

 

What, no lightgun now?

 

19 minutes ago, Lord Mushroom said:

I am not suggesting shooting the missile directly, but telling the missile battery where to shoot with a lightgun.

 

Same thing.  "Shoot that!" and the missile launches in that direction (same with a touchscreen tablet).  It's just a delayed result.  No thanks, much better to use what the military seems to use in some situations.  It's Missile Command, not Missile Shooting Gallery.

 

You'd really prefer playing Missile Command using a lightgun scheme?

 

20 minutes ago, Lord Mushroom said:

I stand corrected. There is indeed a Lunar Lander game on its way, and it looks like it has the potential to do well. But as you say, it is very different from the original. I meant that a game with the same gameplay as Lunar Lander wouldn´t succeed.

 

A thruster with rotation buttons wouldn't succeed?  Have you never heard of Asteroids?  Star Castle?  Rip-Off?  The only difference is that Lunar Lander has the analog thrust instead of the all or nothing thrust of a digital on/off button.

 

I worry that a Recharged Lunar Lander would look too much like a Gravitar (which was a spiritual sequel) but I'd bet that the Alan-1 people could figure it out.  There could be other things to land on, like fuel tanks or repair pads or whatever, enemies trying to land first to steal the points or whatever is on the ground, who knows.  Maybe instead of shooting the enemies (like Gravitar) the player instead has to bump them out of the way, wouldn't that require some good flying skills!  Maybe also landing on an engine module (like the extra stage in Moon Cresta) that would give the player more speed.  Using that cool analog thrust controller and rotation buttons.  A, uh, challenge.  No lightgun, please.

 

23 minutes ago, Lord Mushroom said:

It is not just about challenge, though, that could have been changed. They would find it boring. Not enough action. 

 

Slowly floating around colorful cartoony backgrounds and soaking up dozens of power-ups isn't "action", either, even with endless sleepy background music.  I'm really glad that the Asteroids Recharged version is ramping back that goofy shit and leaning more towards the arcade original.  I'm not expecting it to be exactly the same but just that sneak peek is encouraging.

[Jimmy Wicker]

thanks everyone for offering your constructive feedback on how to best make not only asteroids recharged better but other recharged titles too.  Our team will seriously consider all ideas and make the best arcade version off asteroids recharged that we can. 
 

The cabinet was a hit at the show!  Even Eugene Jarvis  came by and played asteroids recharged for about 45 minutes with us.  He was all smiles!  He absolutely loved it.  

Great guy and gave us real positive encouragement to keep pressing on.    

 

Edited March 22 by Jimmy Wicker

[Lord Mushroom]

2 hours ago, ledzep said:

If you're advocating for one type of arcade game concept and saying it's the right one because "the customer is always right" even if he's an idiot, how do you resolve that down to one type of arcade game concept when many customers are "right" wanting the game one way and many other customers are "right" wanted the game the opposite way?

"The customer" is the target audience, the average customer if you will. You can´t give every customer exactly what he/she wants, but you can provide what will appeal to the most of them.

 

2 hours ago, ledzep said:

But gamers I know who play the more modern systems have no problem buying better/costlier gamepads.  So money isn't the issue. 

Those controllers can be used for all games, so the cost per game becomes much lower than for say steering wheels.

 

2 hours ago, ledzep said:

That doesn't speak to obsolescence, it speaks to younger players wanted the easy joystick/buttons control schemes.

When people don´t want something anymore, it is obsolete.

 

2 hours ago, ledzep said:

Why would they be obsolete in one arena and not another?

I don´t know why it is still used by some, but it is obviously not used in arcade machines because most players prefer to use something else. Lightgun games could have used a trackball, but they don´t, because it is a lot more fun to use a lightgun. 

 

2 hours ago, ledzep said:

No thanks, much better to use what the military seems to use in some situations.  It's Missile Command, not Missile Shooting Gallery.

I remember the military used lasers on the ground to guide smart bombs, so a "lightgun" isn´t as removed from reality as you would have it. I don´t know how a missile shield is operated, and neither do the players, so a trackball isn´t any more authentic to the players than a light-thingy.

 

3 hours ago, ledzep said:

You'd really prefer playing Missile Command using a lightgun scheme?

Yes, I think so. But more importantly, I think young people would prefer it.

 

3 hours ago, ledzep said:

A thruster with rotation buttons wouldn't succeed?  Have you never heard of Asteroids?  Star Castle?  Rip-Off?

By gameplay I mean what happens in the game, not how you control the input.

[Giles N]

7 hours ago, Lord Mushroom said:

I think the in-game music in Berzerk Recharged should be removed, it ruins the atmosphere. But there could be sinister music when Evil Otto arrives.

The music is one the elements most are satisfied with.

It’s low volume on the Bot-speech that’s gotten the most criticism, as well as the graphics being just too cartoony for what the original tried to convey back then (when all almost all graphics were super-simple).

[ledzep]

3 hours ago, Lord Mushroom said:

"The customer" is the target audience, the average customer if you will. You can´t give every customer exactly what he/she wants, but you can provide what will appeal to the most of them.

 

That's not how it's interpreted.  "The customer is always right" means each customer, meaning any request or dispute in a typical store, no matter how contradictory their individual demands might be.  What you're talking about is "Most of the customers are always right", a very different concept.

 

3 hours ago, Lord Mushroom said:

Those controllers can be used for all games, so the cost per game becomes much lower than for say steering wheels.

 

You keep going to steering wheels, which I agree wouldn't be used much but there are some driving games.  I was talking about non-joystick controllers like trak-balls and spinners, which would probably be more expensive than a typical gamepad but no more expensive (probably less) than a steering wheel or flight yoke.  Even so, gamers willing to spend all that money on the other shit will be just as happy to spend more on another thing to maximize their gaming consoles.  Plenty of them buy gaming mouses (mice) and special chairs to sit in, don't start acting like now they're cheap.

 

3 hours ago, Lord Mushroom said:

When people don´t want something anymore, it is obsolete.

 

No, when people don't want something anymore, it is unpopular because they can change their minds later and want it back.  Rear-wheel drive on cars isn't obsolete, it's unpopular, only a few cars have it (though thankfully Tesla at least is bringing that concept back) but show me how many race cars are front wheel drive (there are probably a few, but how many F1, NASCAR, dragsters, etc. are front wheel drive, not rear or all-wheel drive).  Carburetors are obsolete (though still popular with classic car fans) because fuel injection is better.  But mechanical fuel injection is obsolete, electronic fuel injection is far more reliable and accurate.  CRTs are obsolete but very popular with arcade game collectors, and they were far superior in terms of true blacks in colorspace until OLEDs showed up.  8-bit CPUs are obsolete in PCs, the bare minimum is 32-bit currently.

 

3 hours ago, Lord Mushroom said:

I don´t know why it is still used by some, but it is obviously not used in arcade machines because most players prefer to use something else. Lightgun games could have used a trackball, but they don´t, because it is a lot more fun to use a lightgun. 

 

I am older of course but even among my younger friends who play video games (at home), none of them have voiced any major preference for lightguns or a desire for most games to be converted to lightgun controls.  They also don't seem to voice a preference for arcade games with lightguns.  But of course that's not scientific, there may be loads of gamers who pine for lightguns for all the games for all I know.  I just haven't seen it or heard of it.

 

The trak-ball is still used by some because it's more accurate than other input devices for certain tasks.  Read through those links I posted, for the military it offers something good enough that they seem to still use them today for many tasks.  The type of tasks, based on those images, that are similar to Missile Command in terms of identifying or targetting certain areas on a screen.  You know what you don't see in those images?  A bunch of lightguns.  No lightguns in tanks or fighter jets, either.  Those use analog sticks or something else.

 

And a mouse is a trak-ball, just upside down.  Tell me, are you using a lightgun on your computer to select windows because it's better than a trak-ball?  How about to select text or place the cursor?  Seems like it should be a common request.

 

3 hours ago, Lord Mushroom said:

I remember the military used lasers on the ground to guide smart bombs, so a "lightgun" isn´t as removed from reality as you would have it. I don´t know how a missile shield is operated, and neither do the players, so a trackball isn´t any more authentic to the players than a light-thingy.

 

True, so you would want to play a game where you hold a lightgun steady on a ground target so that a bomb would hit it.  That's not a bad idea though I think people would get a little bored after a while if that's all you can do.  But that's not Missile Command where you need to launch multiple ABMs at multiple targets in a fire and forget mode because too many missiles are flying down to be able to paint one target at a time until it's wiped out.

 

A trak-ball is more authentic, look at those links again.  The operators are remote from the battlefield, they can't directly paint incoming targets with lasers aimed into the sky, they're in little bays many miles away looking at a screen full of targets.  Keep trying to pretend that everybody uses lasers in the military if you like, but Missile Command with a trak-ball is way more realistic than using a lightgun.

 

3 hours ago, Lord Mushroom said:

Yes, I think so. But more importantly, I think young people would prefer it.

 

How many have you asked?  Or is this based on other arcade Missile Command-type games with lightguns?  I haven't been to a typical (non-retro) arcade in a while but I don't remember seeing any games like that.

 

3 hours ago, Lord Mushroom said:

By gameplay I mean what happens in the game, not how you control the input.

 

Well, the home version of Lunar Lander Recharged, ya, I think I agree with you.  But I think that Alan-1 is going to de-goofy that version into something worthy of an arcade cabinet.  With an authentic thrust controller, thank Odin.

[GoldLeader]

My head hurts...

 

 

IMO,  A light gun version of Missile Command would be a different game.  Personally,  I don't have much interest there but,   if Atari put out a light gun game,  for example Zombie Deer Hunter (I hope I just made that up) where the Deer are now evil and some have red eyes or big weird antlers.  or wings because they are crossed with demons or whatever it is...and they have an Optional game built in to the cabinet,  That could work.  Want to leave the Evil Forest for a spell?  We give you Light Gun Missile Command!   It seems to me like it wouldn't be too hard to develop...

 

 

Now,  as far as,  "The Customer is always right",  IMO it never was a literal adage.  It's there with Murphy's Law.  You have to know when to apply it and how much.  To whit,  I work in a pizza place and the managers there have free reign to make the customer happy,  but they also have the right to say no (or worse,  much worse haha)...We have Great food and lots of customers...There will always be others.  Now,  I'd say most of the time,  if the customer calls to complain,  we simply hand the phone to a manager (Most of whom are in their late twenties,...so they're young bucks) and they make it right usually just giving credit for next time...But occasionally,  especially if they made the pizza so they know it's right, ...or if a customer is cussing them out instead of being polite...Well,  a while back I recall our manager just saying, "OK,  Well F*CK YOU!"  *Click!*,  and then saying to us "He should have been nice"...

[Shaggy the Atarian]

Just as a helpful reminder to everyone making suggestions(or debating ), arcade manufacturers have two customers to consider - the arcade operator first, then the end user. It's a delicate balance, as those are two very different groups, but you can't have one without the other. 

 

The reason why ops are first is because they need to Operators care about one thing - will this make me money? They're spending thousands of dollars to buy the game instead of $60, so that makes sense. Some arcade games cost more than a brand new truck. You don't want to spend anywhere between $10k-$50k on a game for charity.

 

Of course, a great game will draw in players and that will equal earnings. But at the same time, the features that equal giant amounts of sales in console sales do not always translate over to what works in the arcade space.

 

Right now, the games that make the most money are redemption - but for video, it's light-gun and racing. If you look at who gets the most sales out there, its Raw Thrills. Their gameplay is usually quite casual but they tend to have some kind of element about them that sets them apart from what you can do on a console. They tend to ask "What else can we do that makes this bigger and different from what you can do at home?" If that means using two screens instead of one, or vending cards, or adding VR, that's what they do. Presently, that's why they're leaning hard into VR. But, they just won Manufacturer of the Year and their games are consistently at the top of the charts.  Whether you love or hate their titles, they make money.

 

48 minutes ago, ledzep said:

How many have you asked?  Or is this based on other arcade Missile Command-type games with lightguns?  I haven't been to a typical (non-retro) arcade in a while but I don't remember seeing any games like that.

Speaking as an arcade operator going on 16 years myself, I can tell you that almost no one from Gen Z has a clue what Missile Command is, and has zero nostalgia attached to the idea of a trackball and blowing nukes up. Also, I consistently see light-gun games make much more than my joystick stuff. Having a gun is cool and relatively unique, whereas with a joystick, there isn't that much of a difference from that to a thumbstick. 

 

Here's a great example of why people are drawn to light-guns more than other types of controllers in an arcade setting. These have metal casing and feel real. The air compressor force feedback compliments it too:

 

 

Give Missile Command a light-gun like that and it might make bank. Even without a rifle, people would play it who have never heard of MC before, although it's likely that most Atarians would scoff at it. The only potential issue though is that the calibration sucks, as you want pinpoint accuracy. But just a gun with a different design will attract people to it.

 

That said, trackballs are uncommon in the home space for gaming still, so I think that a large trackball in a game like MC would still be plenty cool to set it apart from what you'd be able to do at home.

 

 

 

[ledzep]

14 minutes ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

Just as a helpful reminder to everyone making suggestions(or debating ), arcade manufacturers have two customers to consider - the arcade operator first, then the end user. It's a delicate balance, as those are two very different groups, but you can't have one without the other. 

 

The reason why ops are first is because they need to Operators care about one thing - will this make me money? They're spending thousands of dollars to buy the game instead of $60, so that makes sense. Some arcade games cost more than a brand new truck. You don't want to spend anywhere between $10k-$50k on a game for charity.

 

I agree, which even back in the day sucked when a cool game got swapped out for a Pac-Man or something because that oddball game wasn't as popular (it was very hard to find a Polaris or Space Firebird game even though both were really fun, I guess most gamers preferred other games) and didn't make enough money for the arcade owner.  On the other hand, walking into an arcade back then that had 6 Pac-Mans and 7 Donkey Kongs and not so many other cool games usually meant a short visit from me and the other arcade gamers I knew.  Sometimes max profits can be bad in terms of repeat business if there are too many of the same type.

 

16 minutes ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

Of course, a great game will draw in players and that will equal earnings. But at the same time, the features that equal giant amounts of sales in console sales do not always translate over to what works in the arcade space.

 

True, but there is some risk or guessing in that sense.  Who knew that lightgun games would take off before there were lightgun games?  But they obviously are popular (I loved Silent Scope though it raped me after that first level every time, hahaaha).  But that just shows that the next thing, that isn't currently in arcades, could be the new popular so sticking to lightguns über alles could be very short-sighted in a design sense.

 

19 minutes ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

Right now, the games that make the most money are redemption - but for video, it's light-gun and racing. If you look at who gets the most sales out there, its Raw Thrills. Their gameplay is usually quite casual but they tend to have some kind of element about them that sets them apart from what you can do on a console. They tend to ask "What else can we do that makes this bigger and different from what you can do at home?" If that means using two screens instead of one, or vending cards, or adding VR, that's what they do. Presently, that's why they're leaning hard into VR. But, they just won Manufacturer of the Year and their games are consistently at the top of the charts.  Whether you love or hate their titles, they make money.

 

Ya, VR is going to be huge, if nothing else for TikTok videos of players tripping over themselves trying to run away from things that don't exist, hahaaha.

 

21 minutes ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

Speaking as an arcade operator going on 16 years myself, I can tell you that almost no one from Gen Z has a clue what Missile Command is, and has zero nostalgia attached to the idea of a trackball and blowing nukes up. Also, I consistently see light-gun games make much more than my joystick stuff. Having a gun is cool and relatively unique, whereas with a joystick, there isn't that much of a difference from that to a thumbstick. 

 

But a trak-ball (and spinner) are neither, though I get what you're saying about Gen Z nostalgia (or lack thereof).  Even so, how many lightgun games can a person want to play?  That's just video shooting gallery.  Yay.  I mean, how many racing games can someone play in one day in an arcade, either?  A little variety could go a long way, if just to break up the lightgun lightgun racing lightgun racing racing game choice pattern which seems to be almost all the options in the modern arcades, yes?

 

23 minutes ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

 

Give Missile Command a light-gun like that and it might make bank. Even without a rifle, people would play it who have never heard of MC before, although it's likely that most Atarians would scoff at it. The only potential issue though is that the calibration sucks, as you want pinpoint accuracy. But just a gun with a different design will attract people to it.

 

It wouldn't make any sense as "missile command" and would fundamentally be a different game.  Maybe a popular game, as you say, but call it something else and now it's a shooting gallery again but in the sky, I guess you could just as easily be shooting birds out of the air or flying squirrels as they're leaping from tree to tree.  I would actually play that if the graphics were cool (blasts of feathers or puffs of fur, little squeals of surprised terror, hahaahaha) but it would get frustrating if the lightguns weren't accurate enough.

 

27 minutes ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

That said, trackballs are uncommon in the home space for gaming still, so I think that a large trackball in a game like MC would still be plenty cool to set it apart from what you'd be able to do at home.

 

I agree but I'm not a Gen Z gamer (thank Odin) so my opinion probably doesn't mean much in terms of the large group of lightgun/driving game loving gamers.  That Asteroids Recharged looks fun, I can't believe younger gamers would ignore it simply because it doesn't have a lightgun or isn't a driving game.  How myopic can you get?

[Giles N]

6 hours ago, Jimmy Wicker said:

Why are you guys wearing helmets…is it so immersive one actually have to wear protective helmet playing it? Does the Cabinet come with the full 4D-experience, rock-pieces flying from the top of the Arcade as you blow up asteroids..?!

 

 

Edited March 22 by Giles N

[Lord Mushroom]

35 minutes ago, ledzep said:

That's not how it's interpreted.  "The customer is always right" means each customer, meaning any request or dispute in a typical store, no matter how contradictory their individual demands might be.  What you're talking about is "Most of the customers are always right", a very different concept.

It can be interpreted both ways.

 

37 minutes ago, ledzep said:

I was talking about non-joystick controllers like trak-balls and spinners, which would probably be more expensive than a typical gamepad but no more expensive (probably less) than a steering wheel or flight yoke.  Even so, gamers willing to spend all that money on the other shit will be just as happy to spend more on another thing to maximize their gaming consoles. 

I don´t know what point you are trying to make, but if people wanted trackballs in gaming, they would have been popular. They used to be popular, but disappeared.

 

I understand you like trackballs, old school gameplay and controls, but few others do. You are calling for Alan-1 to make arcade machines that appeal to you personally, and you don´t care if other people don´t like it as long as you do. That is not what I do. There are things I don´t like about their arcade machine, that I keep to myself, because I think changing them would be bad for their sales. 

 

53 minutes ago, ledzep said:

Plenty of them buy gaming mouses (mice) and special chairs to sit in, don't start acting like now they're cheap.

No, but they can be used for many games, thus they become cheap per game.

 

55 minutes ago, ledzep said:

No, when people don't want something anymore, it is unpopular because they can change their minds later and want it back.

With that definition there is no such thing as obsolete things. But let´s use your definition and call the trackballs unpopular instead. That still makes them a bad idea for a new arcade machine.

 

1 hour ago, ledzep said:

The trak-ball is still used by some because it's more accurate than other input devices for certain tasks.  Read through those links I posted, for the military it offers something good enough that they seem to still use them today for many tasks.  The type of tasks, based on those images, that are similar to Missile Command in terms of identifying or targetting certain areas on a screen.

Like I said, it doesn´t matter if the operators of a missile shield literally use a trackball and a button for shooting down incoming missiles. Because even if they do, the players playing a game about shooting down incoming missiles don´t know that, and so get no extra feeling of authenticity from using a trackball versus a light-thingy.

 

1 hour ago, ledzep said:

No lightguns in tanks or fighter jets, either.  Those use analog sticks or something else.

I am the one suggesting arcade machines should use more authentic controls (as far as it is practical). It is you who want a spaceship to be controlled by buttons alone.

 

1 hour ago, ledzep said:

And a mouse is a trak-ball, just upside down. 

I disagree, but who cares? We are talking about arcade machines here, not PCs or anything else. Modern mice don´t have balls in them anymore anyway, they use light now. Maybe I am using a "lightgun" to control the cursor on my PC.

 

1 hour ago, ledzep said:

True, so you would want to play a game where you hold a lightgun steady on a ground target so that a bomb would hit it.

No, I was just pointing out that the military uses, or at least has used, something similar to a lightgun to guide explosives.

 

1 hour ago, ledzep said:

A trak-ball is more authentic, look at those links again.

I would imagine that mice are more common than trackballs in the military. Would you want the arcade Missile Command Recharged to have a mouse as a control? I don´t think so. You are just using authenticity as an excuse to maintain impractical controls.

 

An alternative could be to make the light-thingy be a missile battery mounted to the cabinet. Now it is more authentic than a trackball.

 

1 hour ago, ledzep said:

How many have you asked?  Or is this based on other arcade Missile Command-type games with lightguns?

I haven´t asked anyone, it is simply based on the absence of current popular trackball games and the flurry of popular lightgun games in arcades.

[Giles N]

1 hour ago, Lord Mushroom said:

2 hours ago, ledzep said:

The trak-ball is still used by some because it's more accurate than other input devices for certain tasks.

…

1 hour ago, Lord Mushroom said:

I would imagine that mice are more common than trackballs in the military.

… yes, more common even than men…

 

Stop quarreling about something (X-)Atari have had the perfect solution to for, a long, long time; they can save both the modern Arcades and the American military with one single item:

 

 

…the forgotten controller that fixes all problems… both as to military super weapons and domestic entertainment…!

 

You just gotta love-it-now…!

 

There is no other option!

Edited March 22 by Giles N

[Giles N]

2 hours ago, GoldLeader said:

...or if a customer is cussing them out instead of being polite...

…remember back in the late 80ies I saw people literally kicking and cussing (more like heavyweight-cursing) the Arcade cabinet as they lost again and again…

 

2 hours ago, GoldLeader said:

Well,  a while back I recall our manager just saying, "OK,  Well F*CK YOU!"  *Click!*,  and then saying to us "He should have been nice"...

…so, precisely, how does this translate to physical cabinet or software Arcade-operations in your view…🧐

 

—

😛😂…Do we need HAL-9000 (again…we seem to become more and more dependent on him for cut-through solutions)

Edited March 22 by Giles N

[ledzep]

7 minutes ago, Lord Mushroom said:

I don´t know what point you are trying to make, but if people wanted trackballs in gaming, they would have been popular. They used to be popular, but disappeared.

 

You're the one who brought up that gamers who spend hundreds of dollars on games and consoles are magically cheap when it come to controllers.  I disagreed.  That was the point you made about cheap that I was talking about.  People would want trak-balls for games that require trak-balls.  But programmers have usually recoded the games for joysticks instead, fundamentally changing many of those games.  Analog sticks are fundamentally trak-balls in terms of playing experience (velocity + direction), though less accurate, yet they're very popular.  Many players I've know will use a ball mouse instead if the option is possible.

 

9 minutes ago, Lord Mushroom said:

I understand you like trackballs, old school gameplay and controls, but few others do. You are calling for Alan-1 to make arcade machines that appeal to you personally, and you don´t care if other people don´t like it as long as you do. That is not what I do. There are things I don´t like about their arcade machine, that I keep to myself, because I think changing them would be bad for their sales. 

 

Ah, I see your confusion.  You refuse to read through links.  Alan-1 has already mentioned, in this thread I believe, that they're going to be going with the original type of arcade controls when possible, meaning buttons for Asteroids and trak-balls for Missile Command, etc.  Did you really just gloss over that because it doesn't fit your everybody loves gamepads now mindset?

 

No, what you do is insist that everybody wants lightguns and steering wheels in arcades.

 

I don't like trak-balls every time, I like them for games designed for them.  That means Missile Command, Centipede, Quantum, etc.  I don't think a trak-ball works as well for Tempest or Major Havoc compared to their original controllers.  I think that changing the control scheme fundamentally changes the gameplay.  For the worse.  Alan-1 seems to agree based on their statements about future Recharged games.  But you'd have to read what they said earlier in order to understand.

 

14 minutes ago, Lord Mushroom said:

With that definition there is no such thing as obsolete things. But let´s use your definition and call the trackballs unpopular instead. That still makes them a bad idea for a new arcade machine.

 

Don't change what I wrote by deleted half of it.  The examples I gave about obsolete systems or tech were in terms of being out-of-date or less functional than newer/better systems.  Carburetors vs. electronic fuel injection, 8-bit CPUs vs. 32-bit+ CPUs, so yes of course there are such things as obsolete things.  Do you really just ignore half of what people write?

 

The only controllers that are bad ideas for arcade machines are ones that don't fit well.  Joysticks are bad for games designed for paddles, for example.  Yes, it's still possible to play the games but once the better fit controller is added, the game is better.  Missile Command is far better with a trak-ball, ask any 5200 owner.

 

20 minutes ago, Lord Mushroom said:

Like I said, it doesn´t matter if the operators of a missile shield literally use a trackball and a button for shooting down incoming missiles. Because even if they do, the players playing a game about shooting down incoming missiles don´t know that, and so get no extra feeling of authenticity from using a trackball versus a light-thingy.

 

Yes it does matter when the original intent of the game design was to mimic (crudely, this is for arcades afterall) a missile battery station.  If the players don't know what's more authentic or not then they have no basis to believe that the trak-ball version is inaccurate or unnecessary.  That doesn't stop someone else from making a similar game that uses your favored lightgun to shoot at missiles but then that's just another shooting gallery.

 

As an aside, how do you think missiles are aimed on modern cruisers?  You think there's someone standing on the deck aiming a laser up at incoming missiles?  Or would it be better to designate a target using a mouse/trak-ball or a lightpen onto a radar-type display that can track multiple targets and then have the system lock on that target and launch?

 

You should watch video of how battleships would designate targets and aim their main batteries, those mechanical computers are amazing.

 

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/05/gears-of-war-when-mechanical-analog-computers-ruled-the-waves/

 

 

I would play a 5200 game that simulated that hellish dance of calculations, hahaaha.

 

23 minutes ago, Lord Mushroom said:

I am the one suggesting arcade machines should use more authentic controls (as far as it is practical). It is you who want a spaceship to be controlled by buttons alone.

 

Make up your mind.  More authentic for a Missile Command type game = trak-ball and buttons.  Live with it.

 

A first-person space ship game would not use buttons, you're right.  Asteroids isn't a first-person perspective game, the player is viewing the ship from above and from a great distance.  Or, more accurately, on a display screen that represents what the ship is doing out in space somewhere, the player is unaffected by the ship's movement.  So buttons are fine.  A spinner would be fine as well.  So there's no requirement for cockpit type controls.  If Asteroids were converted to a Star Wars type of game then you'd have an argument for more of a ship flying type of set-up.

 

28 minutes ago, Lord Mushroom said:

I disagree, but who cares? We are talking about arcade machines here, not PCs or anything else. Modern mice don´t have balls in them anymore anyway, they use light now. Maybe I am using a "lightgun" to control the cursor on my PC.

 

Odin, look up the design of a mouse and compare it to a trak-ball.  Both use reluctor wheels in 2 axes to control movement on a 2-dimensional plane (X and Y directions, no Z).  Now modern mice use light to interpret movement but they can sometimes be fooled if the mouse is on the wrong surface type (no movement).  Even so, the control is the same, analog movement (direction + velocity) in 2 axes.

 

Again, I'd love to see you try to use a lightgun aimed at your computer screen and claim that it's a better, more natural fit than a mouse or touchpad for controlling cursor placement.  I won't be surprised by the excuses you'll give me for why now lightguns are all of a sudden less than ideal.

 

34 minutes ago, Lord Mushroom said:

No, I was just pointing out that the military uses, or at least has used, something similar to a lightgun to guide explosives.

 

Yes, for ground targets if the soldier is actually in line-of-sight to that target.  If the target is moving the laser has to stay on the target or the bomb/missile will miss it and strike where the last laser position was.  I don't know if you are aware of this but the targets in the Missile Command game are in the sky.

 

Now, I can see a Time Crisis type of shooting gallery game where the player is using a lightgun to paint ground targets and wait, impatiently, for the bombs to hit those targets, especially if they're moving.  And if there are enemy combatants shooting at the player he would have to duck down (same mechanism as in Time Crisis) to avoid being shot but then lose sight of the target so that he'd have to pop back up and hope that he could still reacquire the target in time for the bomb to hit it.  Could be a very fun game, I'd definitely play that.  Even better would be 2-player where the other guy has a normal assault rifle to protect the laser designator player.  Wouldn't be Missile Command.

 

38 minutes ago, Lord Mushroom said:

I would imagine that mice are more common than trackballs in the military. Would you want the arcade Missile Command Recharged to have a mouse as a control? I don´t think so. You are just using authenticity as an excuse to maintain impractical controls.

 

Hahaha, no, I'm using authenticity as a justification to maintain more authentic controls.  You are the one using personal preference to maintain impractical controls.  As I said earlier, a mouse and a trak-ball are fundamentally the same, the mouse is just the upside down version.  For the mouse, the controller moves in space and the surface remains stationary.  For the trak-ball, the controller remains stationary and the surface (hand) is moving.  Seriously, read a book on the subject, it's not complicated.

 

42 minutes ago, Lord Mushroom said:

An alternative could be to make the light-thingy be a missile battery mounted to the cabinet. Now it is more authentic than a trackball.

 

Not for an arcade game based on a simplified missile station simulation it isn't.  Missile Command is a sim of the screen view that the remote gunner is seeing and using to designate targets on that screen that missile batteries can fire at.  What you're talking about is more like the old electromechanical games like Missile where the player is directly aiming a missile battery towards the sky at overhead targets -

 

 

I've played it, it's fun and difficult.  It also ain't Missile Command.

 

47 minutes ago, Lord Mushroom said:

I haven´t asked anyone, it is simply based on the absence of current popular trackball games and the flurry of popular lightgun games in arcades.

 

Hahaha, ya, you need to read more, like how you can't prove that something doesn't exist.  What you have is a guess, you won't know if gamers prefer a lightgun version of Missile Command until there is one that can be compared to a normal trak-ball version of Missile Command Recharged.

[GoldLeader]

There should be a bar video game where you just chew out pissed off customers and use lots of profanity.  I'd play that.  It's something you don't get to do at home (or work usually)....Hmmmm...I'm pretty tired...maybe this is just a tangent.

[Giles N]

@Lord Mushroom @ledzep

 

You’re making this way too complex. Reading your posts, it can be summerized: ‘will younger gamers , or the majority of present-day Arcade-gamers, like the special control-types used in the Arcade originals?’ 
 

No need to debate this by subjectivistic opinions; you either need to refer actual

tests, gamer-statistics or gather your own information in a systematic manner.

 

Repeating arguments pro or con this or that, hardly have any value to this topic, since its so psychological, sociological and generational and many other ‘human’ factors, of the sort that cannot be concluded by mere deduction or induction.

 

 

[+D Train]

3 hours ago, ledzep said:

You should watch video of how battleships would designate targets and aim their main batteries, those mechanical computers are amazing.

this is amazing.  I need to tuck in and watch this whole series.

[ledzep]

3 hours ago, Giles N said:

@Lord Mushroom @ledzep

 

You’re making this way too complex. Reading your posts, it can be summerized: ‘will younger gamers , or the majority of present-day Arcade-gamers, like the special control-types used in the Arcade originals?’ 
 

No need to debate this by subjectivistic opinions; you either need to refer actual

tests, gamer-statistics or gather your own information in a systematic manner.

 

Repeating arguments pro or con this or that, hardly have any value to this topic, since its so psychological, sociological and generational and many other ‘human’ factors, of the sort that cannot be concluded by mere deduction or induction.

 

 

 

Agreed, I was just surprised that he hadn't read that the plan was for these arcade Recharged games to be mostly true to the original control schemes.

Edited March 23 by ledzep

[ledzep]

2 hours ago, D Train said:

this is amazing.  I need to tuck in and watch this whole series.

 

Right?  I know they're military but they're also no longer used so I wonder if someone has a working example in a house somewhere, maybe from a decommissioned/scrapped old battleship or cruiser.  I won't say they're obsolete because I'm pretty sure the Iowa battleships still used them when they were modernized because they fucking work great (no need to replace them) and they cannot be jammed by any electromagnetic attack (though I suppose a lack of lubrication could jam them up regardless, hahaaha), at least that's what I remember from the tour I took of the Iowa some years ago.

 

There has to be a way to convert that into a home video game.  For the nerdy types, I don't see much "action" in such a game, it would be more like Stellar Track vs. a more typical Star Raiders experience.  Definitely not in an arcade, haha.

[+D Train]

2 hours ago, ledzep said:

There has to be a way to convert that into a home video game.

This is the type of thing where I could see VR coming into play.

 

if you could see the room, and your coworkers, and could talk to them while making adjustments to the controls.

 

sort of the way the star trek VR bridge was supposed to work, but this would be a lot more complicated, especially if it were designed off the original specs of the machinery.

 

someone in another thread was joking about needing a 1,500 page manual to hang off the side of an arcade version of lunar lander that had the apollo controls.

 

same thing here!  you'd need training just to play it!

 

my kind of game...

 

 

[Lord Mushroom]

18 hours ago, ledzep said:

You're the one who brought up that gamers who spend hundreds of dollars on games and consoles are magically cheap when it come to controllers.

Not spending $200 on a steering wheel and pedals to play one or two games better, is not being magically cheap. It is not being wasteful/rich.

 

18 hours ago, ledzep said:

Alan-1 has already mentioned, in this thread I believe, that they're going to be going with the original type of arcade controls when possible, meaning buttons for Asteroids and trak-balls for Missile Command, etc.  

I read what their plans were. I also read that they were looking for advice on how to make the machines better. 

 

18 hours ago, ledzep said:

No, what you do is insist that everybody wants lightguns and steering wheels in arcades.

Shaggy, who is probably the biggest expert on current arcades on this forum, just confirmed what I said. But you, who by your own admission haven´t been to a non-retro arcade in a while, somehow knows better.

 

18 hours ago, ledzep said:

The examples I gave about obsolete systems or tech were in terms of being out-of-date or less functional than newer/better systems.

I am not going to continue arguing with you about the moot point of whether or not trackballs are obsolete, although I could. Instead I will just agree with you that they are unpopular.

 

18 hours ago, ledzep said:

Yes it does matter when the original intent of the game design was to mimic (crudely, this is for arcades afterall) a missile battery station.

The intent was not to make a simulator for training miltary personnel, it was to make money by making a game people would think was fun. Actual authenticity was therefore irrelevant, only perceived authenticity mattered.

 

18 hours ago, ledzep said:

If the players don't know what's more authentic or not then they have no basis to believe that the trak-ball version is inaccurate or unnecessary.

Back in the day they were unaware how awkward it was to aim by scroling a trackball instead of just pointing to where you want to strike. Now players know full well how good lightguns are at this job, and would find the trackball impractical.

 

18 hours ago, ledzep said:

As an aside, how do you think missiles are aimed on modern cruisers?  You think there's someone standing on the deck aiming a laser up at incoming missiles?  Or would it be better to designate a target using a mouse/trak-ball or a lightpen onto a radar-type display that can track multiple targets and then have the system lock on that target and launch?

Sounds like a light-thingy to me.

 

18 hours ago, ledzep said:

A first-person space ship game would not use buttons, you're right.  Asteroids isn't a first-person perspective game, the player is viewing the ship from above and from a great distance.  Or, more accurately, on a display screen that represents what the ship is doing out in space somewhere, the player is unaffected by the ship's movement.  So buttons are fine.  A spinner would be fine as well.  So there's no requirement for cockpit type controls. 

You are still in a spaceship, and a yoke is more authentic than 5 buttons. More importantly, it is more fun.

 

The sprint games and Super Off Road don´t have a first person perspective either, yet they had steering wheels. Are you saying they would have been better with trackballs and buttons instead? Of course not, you just want to maintain the original controls.

 

19 hours ago, ledzep said:

Again, I'd love to see you try to use a lightgun aimed at your computer screen and claim that it's a better, more natural fit than a mouse or touchpad for controlling cursor placement.  I won't be surprised by the excuses you'll give me for why now lightguns are all of a sudden less than ideal.

I have never claimed lightguns are better than mice for PCs. I am saying they are better for games where you aim and shoot on the screen. It is you who are kind of claiming that games like Jurassic Park Arcade would have been better with a trackball. 

 

19 hours ago, ledzep said:

Hahaha, no, I'm using authenticity as a justification to maintain more authentic controls.  You are the one using personal preference to maintain impractical controls. 

You have said yourself that lightguns would make Missile Command Recharged too easy, so you are describing yourself. How can I be using personal preference to maintain impractical controls when I am advocating the most practical controls? 

 

19 hours ago, ledzep said:

As I said earlier, a mouse and a trak-ball are fundamentally the same, the mouse is just the upside down version. 

This is another moot point I won´t continue arguing with you.

 

19 hours ago, ledzep said:

Not for an arcade game based on a simplified missile station simulation it isn't.  Missile Command is a sim of the screen view that the remote gunner is seeing and using to designate targets on that screen that missile batteries can fire at.

Fair enough. It would be more fun, though. Especially for the kids.

 

19 hours ago, ledzep said:

Hahaha, ya, you need to read more, like how you can't prove that something doesn't exist.  What you have is a guess, you won't know if gamers prefer a lightgun version of Missile Command until there is one that can be compared to a normal trak-ball version of Missile Command Recharged.

I didn´t say I knew it would do better with a lightgun, I said I thought it would. And it is a qualified guess based on empirical evidence. 

[Jimmy Wicker]

22 hours ago, Giles N said:

Why are you guys wearing helmets…is it so immersive one actually have to wear protective helmet playing it? Does the Cabinet come with the full 4D-experience, rock-pieces flying from the top of the Arcade as you blow up asteroids..?!

 

 

lol

 

The helmets say "Alan-1 Building fun"

It's to remind our guys not to take ourselves too seriously.

We're making games! 🙂

[Giles N]

10 minutes ago, Jimmy Wicker said:

lol

 

The helmets say "Alan-1 Building fun"

It's to remind our guys not to take ourselves too seriously.

We're making games! 🙂

Cool - that’s some attitude !!!

😉😀

Edited March 23 by Giles N

[Giles N]

3 hours ago, Jimmy Wicker said:

We're making games!

When or where will get to see or hear about how final Arcade version of Asteroids:Recharged will play/perform (that is: which changes were made, what is going to be just 1:1 the home-version…?