Burning questions from a new ST owner

[TGB1718]

2 hours ago, danm said:

I got hold of a internal PC floppy disk drive last night. The one I had attached to my Pentium 4 wasn't working so hopefully this one works.

If it's a 1.44MB floppy drive, probably won't work.

 

I use my SideCart as a Hard disk, I believe SideCart can only emulate one device at a time and have recently used it to copy

all the partitions from my real hard drive onto it.

It does boot from the Cart when set up correctly

 

I have an external GOEX floppy (similar to Gotek) but designed to fit in Atari cases or internally , I re-jumpered my STE so the external

Goex is the boot drive if needed.

[+remowilliams]

6 hours ago, danm said:

Should that work or will I need to use a special tool to write ST game  / 800 Kb disks under Linux? HxCFloppyEmulator doesn't seem to have an option to write real floppys?

For ST disks that use non IBM PC compatible formats you can try using utilities like OmniFlop.

 

.STX files cannot be converted to another format like .ST as the copy protection data will be lost.  .STX files can potentially be written to real floppies using a device that is capable of low level operation like the Greaseweazle.

 

When attempting to write disk images back to real floppies you should be using DS/DD disks, not standard PC 1.44 HD disks.

[+DarkLord]

9 hours ago, danm said:

 

Yes, no Amiga workbench without a disk.

 

I will try to get a 2 ROM TOS if poss.

 

I've barely used GEM but I like that it can be controlled using cursor keys. I don't think Workbench has such controls baked in and it seems like a big omission to a currently mouseless user.

 

I also like that the ST uses msdos format disks for "normal" (non game) disks, rather than Amigas more PC unfrendly formats.

 

Keep in mind though, that if you switch from 6 chip TOS to 2 chip TOS, or vice-versa, other modifications have to be made.

 

Just replacing the original chips to TOS v1.4 is a straight switch out...

 

[atarian1]

On 7/16/2024 at 11:47 PM, danm said:

I got hold of a internal PC floppy disk drive last night. The one I had attached to my Pentium 4 wasn't working so hopefully this one works.

 

I don;t think I've found any correct and complete instructions for writing ST game disks onto floppy under Linux yet but I think it goes roughly like this:

 

* First, convert .msa into .st (.msa are compressed right?) if required. Will I also need to convert .stx files to .st? I'm pretty I read they would need to be converted before being written onto a real floppy.

* Use something like HxCFloppyEmulator to find out how many tracks and cylinders the disk uses.

* Use `superformat` (in Debian/Ubuntu package `fdutils`) to format the disk to the correct spec then use

 

dd if=disk.st of=/dev/fd0

 

As root to write the image to floppy.

 

Should that work or will I need to use a special tool to write ST game  / 800 Kb disks under Linux? HxCFloppyEmulator doesn't seem to have an option to write real floppys?

 

I hope I won't need to install Windows just to write ST game disks onto floppies. I can see there being potential issues trying to run any Windows floppy disk software under wine.

Good to see you are using an internal floppy disk drive as USB external ones are hit-and-miss. Your internal drive has the best compatibility with older computers, including the ST.

 

Make sure you use genuine DS/DD 720K floppy disks. Using 1.44MB disks formatted to 720k disks aren't reliable.

 

You convert .st to .msa and then .msa to ST floppy disks. STX is for emulators and other low level formatters.

[danm]

32 minutes ago, atarian1 said:

You convert .st to .msa and then .msa to ST floppy disks. STX is for emulators and other low level formatters.

 

I don't see why there would ever be any need to convert a .st to a msa before writing it to a floppy.

 

My understanding of the popular disk formats is this:

 

.st =   Raw ST disk

.msa = Compressed .st disk

.stx = copy protected ST disk

 

I would presume Omniflop and that other tool you guys use would allow writing real ST disks direct from .msa files?

 

For those without a PC old enough to have a floppy disk controller who want to read and write Atari game disks, another option that no-one has mentioned in this topic yet is FluxEngine. I expect its already been discussed on this forum elsewhere:

 

http://cowlark.com/fluxengine/index.html

FluxEngine requires a FPGA to build so its not the cheapest or easiest option here but it is open source and operates via USB.

The Linux disk commands on atari-wiki recommend using superformat to low level format your disks first but I haven't been able to get superformat to work with my drive and disks, not once.

 

The other low level formatting tool for Linux that supports 800 Kb disks is fdformat but both Debian and Ubuntu no longer include fdformat in their utils-linux packages. I'd installed Debian 12 on my P4 so I can't install fdformat via the repo so I'm going to have a go at building fdformat from source and see if I can get it to format a 800 Kb floppy. If/when I get this working I'll update the wiki with better instructions. From what I've read, it should be possible to write .st images to disk from Linux using dd after you've successfully low level formatted a disk to 800 Kb, using an internal PC floppy or a fancy disk controller like FluxEngine etc.

 

Seems we don't have many Linux users on this forum?

Edited July 18 by danm

[masteries]

Upgrade it to TOS 1.04 and RAM memory to 1 MB at least,

 

With this configuration and any hard drive solution, you can play

around 90 or 95% percent of titles from hard drive, that is pretty

comfortable (usually you can save the game state, in order to continue

later).

 

 

[danm]

I've got fdformat to build and run under Debian 12 but my real issue now is that I don't think I have any good floppies so its not worth my carrying on with this without buying some "new" (old stock probably) floppies so that I can rule out dodgy disks:

 

The wiki has this for writing disks under Linux, but it needs to be revised and corrected:

 

https://www.atari-wiki.com/index.php?title=Linux_Disk_Commands#Writing_the_Image

 

The superformat example command it gives is wrong, it says `dd ds` when it should be just `dd` but I've not been able to get superformat to work yet with any commands I've tried.

 

I think getting the setfdprm command right will be key to getting this to work, the wiki command given for that might work for some users but the example given uses 82 cylinders which I understand is unlikely to work for most PC floppy drives. 80 cylinders is more likely to work.

 

If I had a known working ST game disk I could insert it into my PC and run `getfdprm /dev/fd0` on it and that would tell me the correct setfdprm settings to use, probably.

 

The final command in the `Writing an image` section uses the cp command when it should be using dd.

Edited July 18 by danm

[danm]

I've just had a bit of a breakthrough and I feel confident this will work when I get some decent floppies.

 

Under Debian (12), if you have an internal floppy attached, as root run:

 

/usr/sbin/MAKEFLOPPIES

 

This will create a number of new temporary floppy device nodes under /dev including

 

/dev/fd0_type30 (800Kb disks according to http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/doc/fdutils/Fdutils.html )

/dev/fd0u800

/dev/fd0u820

/dev/fd0u830

 

All of the extra floppy devices created by running MAKEFLOPPIES are destroyed on reboot but I expect that if you use one of these fd0xxxx devices there will be no need to use setfdprm, it should just be a case of running something like:

 

dd if=game.st of=/dev/fd0u800 bs=512

 

or

 

dd if=game.st of=/dev/fd0u820 bs=512

 

To write a disk from Linux, depending on the geometry of the disk.

Edited July 18 by danm

[danm]

I had great fun today taking my STFM to bits. The shielding was all intact and barbed into place so it looks like no-one has ever tried to upgrade or mess with it before.

 

It looks like my machine uses two chips for the TOS ROM so that's good news.

 

Is it worth me trying to get a blitter? How many games make use of a STFM blitter? I read somewhere that the STFM add-in blitter is different to the STe blitter?

 

It says C103253 on the board, C070300 on the outer shielding and C070302 TD on the shifter shielding.

 

 

Edited July 18 by danm

[danm]

Exxos sell a 4 MB RAM upgrade for the STFM but I don't think I can use it because I've got 8 rows of DRAM on my board.

Is 1 MB RAM the most my STFM can support?

I've seen this upgrade:

https://github.com/agranlund/STRam

but it doesn't claim to work on the STFM too. Does anyone know if STRam can be used with my model STFM?

EDIT

 

I heard about STRam via Adrian's Digital Basement. I've just re-watched this video and now I'm not so keen on it as you have to desolder your existing RAM and you are then stuck with 4 MB, if it survives the upgrade. I've heard some spftware won't run with 4 MB. Is that true?

 

 

Edited July 18 by danm

[+remowilliams]

1 hour ago, danm said:

Is it worth me trying to get a blitter? How many games make use of a STFM blitter? I read somewhere that the STFM add-in blitter is different to the STe blitter?

Broadly speaking, no it is not worth the money or effort.

 

The blitter will be unused by 99% or more of games but will speed up OS level operations like GEM window draw calls.  Use software accelerators like NVDI if you're going to be spending tons of time in the desktop.

 

1 hour ago, danm said:

but it doesn't claim to work on the STFM too. Does anyone know if STRam can be used with my model STFM?

That is an excellent upgrade option (I installed one in my 520ST), but it will not work with your machine.

 

exxos also offers a PLCC plug in type of upgrade (I'm personally not a big fan of jamming things into those sockets)

 

If you are comfortable with soldering you may want to check out AA user tf_hh's creations as he has created a 4MB expansion.  You'll need to pick off all the required signals off the board for that one.

 

Yes, there is some software which has compatibility issues with larger memory sizes.

[danm]

I went on a bit of a retro computing spending spree today. I've ordered 512 K extra RAM (and the caps required), an Atari RGB cable and a MITSUMI SR98 PSU repair kit from exxos as well as 2x joystick port extension cables that claim to support Atari, Amiga and Sega controllers from ebay.

 

I'm going to wait until I've successfully recapped the PSU and upgraded the RAM before I get a gotek and upgrade TOS.

Edited July 18 by danm

[danm]

6 hours ago, remowilliams said:

If you are comfortable with soldering you may want to check out AA user tf_hh's creations as he has created a 4MB expansion.  You'll need to pick off all the required signals off the board for that one.

tf_hh's 4MB RAM expansion looks like my best bet if I decide thats something I want at a later date. It's good because it doesn't require removing your existing RAM, although you do have to disable the old RAM. I think I probably will get by just fine with 1 MB RAM, lets see.

Edited July 18 by danm

[+remowilliams]

2 hours ago, danm said:

I think I probably will get by just fine with 1 MB RAM, lets see.

1MB will do you just fine for the vast majority of floppy based games.

 

[danm]

What program can I use to test my STFM joystick ports?

 

I have tried Joystick Test v1.0 but either the program doesn't work or both of my joystick ports require resoldering:

 

https://www.atarimania.com/pgesoft.awp?version=36953
 

I tested it with an Atari joystick I know works in both ports but the program didn't respond.

 

I don't have any ST game disks yet so I need a .prg that I can run off a 720k MSDOS floppy. I extracted the `a.prg` and `barb.dat` from a barbarian .stx image using HxCfloppyemulator, copied both onto a 720K msdos disk and I got it loaded by using the cursor keys and INSERT but I've not been able to start the game. I presumed pushing fire would start the game but it doesn't and neither does space, enter, F1 or F2 etc.

 

Another oddity is that the player sprites are distorted when they fall to the floor. Eh?

Do most ST games expect the joystick to to be in port 1 (as opposed to port 0)?

Edited July 20 by danm

[danm]

I tore down my STFM again today to resolder the joystick ports so whilst I was at it I checked that my shifter is socketed. Thankfully it is which means I should be able to install the 4 MB RAM shifter upgrade.

 

 

[danm]

I've resoldered my joystick ports but I'm still getting nothing from the joystick test tool or Barbarian and it seems I didn't do the best job in putting my keyboard back together as I've got a sunk Enter key now.

 

It would be good if someone who owns a STFM (with TOS 1.0.2 ideally) who knows their joystick ports work could try that joystick test program and see if it works for you then let me know. I'm having trouble finding another game that I can extract and run successfully from a DOS disk as I did with Barbarian. Seems I got lucky there as it was the first game I tried doing that with

 

Thanks!

Edited July 20 by danm

[+remowilliams]

4 hours ago, danm said:

Do most ST games expect the joystick to to be in port 1 (as opposed to port 0)?

Yes, the normal port expected would be 1.

 

45 minutes ago, danm said:

It would be good if someone who owns a STFM (with TOS 1.0.2 ideally) who knows their joystick ports work could try that joystick test program and see if it works for you then let me know. 

I took a look at that program and couldn't get it to check a joystick under Hatari...

[+remowilliams]

1 hour ago, danm said:

I'm having trouble finding another game that I can extract and run successfully from a DOS disk as I did with Barbarian. Seems I got lucky there as it was the first game I tried doing that with

Write these files out, choose option F3 and test your joystick : )

 

test.zip

[Forrest]

SidecarT ($35 on Tindie)  https://www.tindie.com/products/logronoide/sidecartridge-multi-device-for-atari-st/?pt=ac_prod_search  plus the cost of a Raspberry Pi Pico W ($6) and you have access to all the games - perfect for testing the joystick port

[danm]

11 minutes ago, remowilliams said:

Write these files out, choose option F3 and test your joystick : )

 

test.zip 269.95 kB · 0 downloads

Will try this soon and let you know - thanks!

[danm]

12 minutes ago, Forrest said:

SidecarT ($35 on Tindie)  https://www.tindie.com/products/logronoide/sidecartridge-multi-device-for-atari-st/?pt=ac_prod_search  plus the cost of a Raspberry Pi Pico W ($6) and you have access to all the games - perfect for testing the joystick port

 

I've heard the sidecart has compat issues with some games / disk images so I'm leaning towards a gotek currently. Do you own one? Whats its st dsk image compat like?

 

I have emailed to author of omniflop to see if he has any tips for writing ST disks from Linux without buying a greaseweazle or a drawbridge etc. Maybe there is a Linux equivalent?
 

I'm probably going to admit defeat soon and install whatever version of Windows I can get to install on my P4 so that I can use OmniFlop most likely.

[danm]

54 minutes ago, remowilliams said:

Write these files out, choose option F3 and test your joystick : )

 

test.zip 269.95 kB · 1 download

 

Super Sprint has proved that both of my joystick ports are working so there was probably no need for me to resolder the joystick ports. That probably didn't hurt the ports but my Enter key is worse off for it. Might be worth trying to straighten it out but I run the risk of getting another wonky key doing that so...

 

I was hoping my joystick extension cable might also magically get my MegaDrive controllers and my Amiga PS/2 mouse adapter working but I had no such luck so will need to get converters or maybe a MouSTer, if I don't buy a Sidecart. I might be able to rewire my extension cable to work with Mega Drive / Amiga controllers.

Edited July 20 by danm

[Forrest]

I’ve only finished soldering and using the SidecarT a few days, but it can’t be beat for the price. I believe an external Gotek and cable runs about 80 Euros, plus the cost of a thumb drive. With a Gotek, you’ll need to spend a lot of time downloading the programs on another computer. The SidecarT is more direct, displaying a list of games, utilities which download in 5-15 seconds and are playable once the computer reboots. The SidecarT doesn’t need a working floppy drive or hard drive - making it much less expensive. I can’t comment on game compatibility with a Gotek - don’t have one. 

[danm]

2 minutes ago, Forrest said:

I’ve only finished soldering and using the SidecarT a few days, but it can’t be beat for the price. I believe an external Gotek and cable runs about 80 Euros, plus the cost of a thumb drive. With a Gotek, you’ll need to spend a lot of time downloading the programs on another computer. The SidecarT is more direct, displaying a list of games, utilities which download in 5-15 seconds and are playable once the computer reboots. The SidecarT doesn’t need a working floppy drive or hard drive - making it much less expensive. I can’t comment on game compatibility with a Gotek - don’t have one. 

 

I'm asking about compt with the sidecart. If I wanted a game or program that isn't available from the sidecart web site, can I copy any random .stx / .st / .msa disk image onto it an expect it to work?