+Ksarul Posted August 26 Share Posted August 26 22 minutes ago, dhe said: >the only thing being that the gate array for the Geneve is not obtainable anymore I think there is a geneve proto-type floating around out there - pre-fpga. With that as a base, one could probably be recreated. The ProtoGeneve is pre-gate-array, but not pre-PAL. There are several PALs on that board. . .and the board was built backwards--the mask for the component side is on the bottom side of the board, and the back side of the board is on the component side, so you need an adapter to flip the bus pins to the proper side. I know of two of these boards in the wild. I have one, and the other is in Germany (formerly Mack McCormick's Geneve). 2 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+dhe Posted August 26 Share Posted August 26 * JOKE POST * It's early on a Monday. In tribute to the work world. So, what I adjust heard was @ksarul can rebuild the gate array. 1 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevee671 Posted August 26 Author Share Posted August 26 (edited) Are we really interested in a Geneve clone or should we keep any successor project true to a 99/4A successor, like the /8 was supposed to be? Granted, we can do so much more now that anything we can come up with would be a successor to the /8. Edited August 26 by stevee671 2 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary from OPA Posted August 26 Share Posted August 26 2 minutes ago, stevee671 said: Are we really interested in a Geneve clone or should we keep this project true to a 99/4A successor, like the /8 was supposed to be? Granted, we can do so much more now that anything we can come up with would be a successor to the /8. I rather see something more like a /4A successor close to /8 or close to what the geneve was going to be before it switched to the peb design. Something that is totally standalone, but can use original external hardware if the user wish to do so. But that also limits some great possibilities by supporting existing hardware, I have some ideas I am slowly working on that would overcome that setback as well. 3 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevee671 Posted August 26 Author Share Posted August 26 Definitely stand-alone. Definitely supporting existing hardware. 3 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522458 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OLD CS1 Posted August 26 Share Posted August 26 9 minutes ago, stevee671 said: Are we really interested in a Geneve clone or should we keep any successor project true to a 99/4A successor, like the /8 was supposed to be? Granted, we can do so much more now that anything we can come up with would be a successor to the /8. What would a successor to the 99/8 look like? The Geneve seems to be a spiritual cousin of the 99/8, lacking Pascal but providing a DOS, so the next step would be a successor to both, I suppose. 3 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevee671 Posted August 26 Author Share Posted August 26 (edited) Any way we want!😉 Let’s see what we can come up with as far as desired specs. What can be included on the board versus an expansion card. Example, built-in speech, memory expansion, etc… Edited August 26 by stevee671 1 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevee671 Posted August 26 Author Share Posted August 26 Is there any interest in moving this discussion to dedicated Discord server? Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522468 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duewester Posted August 26 Share Posted August 26 When I try to think back to the mid-80's and pc progression I think the logical steps would have been to replace basic with extended basic on board, incorporate speech and disk management onto the main board. In other words, move some cartridge stuff onto the main board. A number pad/arrow keys extended keyboard. Relocate the legacy cartridge port to the rear and concentrate/simplify using disc's. Just my 2 cents. 3 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522494 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevee671 Posted August 26 Author Share Posted August 26 Most definitely… I would like to see disk connectivity on the board. Disk Manager, XB II or better onboard. 2 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522500 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OLD CS1 Posted August 26 Share Posted August 26 1 hour ago, stevee671 said: Is there any interest in moving this discussion to dedicated Discord server? Why not here? 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevee671 Posted August 26 Author Share Posted August 26 I’m not opposed to having the discussions here, just throwing it out there. 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+FarmerPotato Posted August 26 Share Posted August 26 12 hours ago, dhe said: >the only thing being that the gate array for the Geneve is not obtainable anymore I think there is a geneve proto-type floating around out there - pre-fpga. With that as a base, one could probably be recreated. I don't think the gate array is a big deal. I put all the gate array functions into other chips. The memory mapper I/O, keyboard interface, mode bits. The clock interface was the ugliest. No, the keyboard mapping was the ugliest. That's in the FPGA on the video card. Buffers up to 8 key down events. My "hardware abstraction layer" is flexible--it can map all these devices in three "memory maps": BIOS, GPL, MDOS. I haven't emulated speeds and wait states. Got a plan for that later. 4 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevee671 Posted August 26 Author Share Posted August 26 How does everyone feel with calling this project: NextGen-99? I’m throwing these specs out there, please add to or take away: Form Factor - Console/Wedge desktop computer Board Design: Through Hole. Not everyone can SMD solder. CPU: 9995/99105 or similar Video: 9958 or similar with dedicated RAM RAM: 512k or better? Sound: TI Sound Built-in: XB II/SXB/Adv Basic or XBIV Speech Disk Controller & Disk Mgmt Clock Keyboard w/ Func & Arrow What else…. 3 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+FarmerPotato Posted August 26 Share Posted August 26 (edited) I'm supportive of your dreams, but I'm going to keep following my 2020 vision. I think it encompasses what you wish for. And I have thought constantly between: 1. standalone Eurocard chassis 2. P Box 3. standalone console 1. Is what I built, it's cute like a Mini P-Box in a 5x8x10 inch steel case. Two "Tiny Floppy" drive slots for MMC cards. Inspired by TI's E-Bus Systems Design. The backplane is TI's 32-bit NuBus (1983). 2. P-Box requires upsizing the cards a little--using TI's P box bus on the bottom, TI's 32-bit bus on top. Ksarul pointed out that I CAN have two buses. 3. If you search my Geneve 2020 thread, I modeled a cyan* colored console with all the ports, MIDI In/OUT, cartridge slot, arrow keys and KNOBs. Inspired by the MSX Yamaha CX5M. I do all my modeling in SCAD with real dimensions. That cyan model is a clamshell designed to be milled from two pieces of Sintex. If I merge my 3 cards into a Double Eurocard it needs just 2 cm. That would fit into a standalone console. As two Double Eurocards, it would fit into a 1980s Texas Instruments/Simatic System 505 chassis. I got one just to dream about it. I still would love to design a beautiful console. * Cyan color code 8 is my thing. Edited August 26 by FarmerPotato 4 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevee671 Posted August 26 Author Share Posted August 26 I’m not knocking the Geneve 2020 project. We need a new Geneve project. There’s not a lot of them out there and it’s a project that needs to be tackled. What I’m suggesting is a follow-on 99/4a. Something like what being done in the Amiga community, for example, the AmigaPCI project. Taking the Amiga 2000/3000 architecture and making compatible with common hardware. Essentially, I’m talking about a 99/16, /32, /64, /128, or whatever it could have been. I think it would be a welcome addition in the 99 community. 6 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OLD CS1 Posted August 26 Share Posted August 26 6 minutes ago, stevee671 said: Taking the Amiga 2000/3000 architecture and making compatible with common hardware. Yeah. Common hardware is the key. Not modern or current by any means, but common because ~98% of people stopped using it 10 years ago or better. Other than the Vampire and the 070 project, I have not been able to bring myself to support anything "next gen" in the Amiga arena. Things stay so far in the past. At least if we look at a "next gen" TI-99 Home Computer, sticking with components of the past is expected. I am not certain about a moniker of "NextGen 99"; it seems pretentious. Sticking with a 99/ naming convention seems homey. 6 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Schmitzi Posted August 26 Share Posted August 26 yes, a number pad would be cool 2 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevee671 Posted August 26 Author Share Posted August 26 I’m always open to suggestions with the project name. Project: Longhorn Project: Hombre Project: Ranger II Project: Vaquero I’m here till Thursday….😁 1 4 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522583 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+FarmerPotato Posted August 26 Share Posted August 26 My console ideas done in SCAD. (3 pieces, top is two parts.) Go to that thread for links to the full-size images. The cartridge slots had a mixed reception. All the Ports you can eat: Ports cover video, audio, MIDI IN/OUT, two Atari joysticks, and two HEXBUS. Yeah! A built-in joystick, and a "Knob Box" for MIDI or 3D graphics. Folks preferred arrow keys! Sigh. Designed for manufacture (in my limited knowledge) from 3 pieces of Sintra (?) high-density foam. Watched Ben Heck mill his custom consoles with that! (See links below.) Mike Bunyard on Manufacturing If you read this interview with Mike Bunyard (thanks @dhe) he rails against the difficulty of building the 4A console because it wasn't designed with forethought about assembly or testing. I learned that the hard way. I have not seen that opinion elsewhere (yet). But I found a TI "New Product Development" type document from 1983. It insists on a Manufacturing and Automated Test review before the design gets too far. A few Ben Heck links Go there if you are intrigued by making your own console case. Or just because they're so fun. https://www.benheck.com/projects-you-can-make/#google_vignette https://www.benheck.com/cnc-routing-overview/ https://community.element14.com/challenges-projects/element14-presents/benheck/b/blog/posts/ben-heck-s-workshop---behind-the-scenes Another post in that thread here showing Commander x16 Bonus keycap 4 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary from OPA Posted August 26 Share Posted August 26 19 minutes ago, FarmerPotato said: I like this design. All tho I would go with 4 slots if I was doing cartridges support. 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevee671 Posted August 26 Author Share Posted August 26 I think carts can go away. If there was a way to incorporate a Final GROM in the design, everything can be placed on a microSD card on the main board of the system. 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Ksarul Posted August 26 Share Posted August 26 40 minutes ago, stevee671 said: I think carts can go away. If there was a way to incorporate a Final GROM in the design, everything can be placed on a microSD card on the main board of the system. I will respectfully disagree. Michael Becker and I had a long discussion on this subject at about the time the HSGPL was released. He was of the opinion then that the time for cartridges was past, and I was still for making new ones. The large number of physically released cartridges in the last 15 years bears my opinion out. There are a lot of potential use cases for a dedicated cartridge, and the FinalGROM can't answer some of them (Dragon's Lair being a prime example of something it can't do). Sometimes, it is nice to be able to pop a cartridge in and go. I like the FinalGROM--I have a couple of them, but it isn't my goto for utilities. I cold also see the cartridge ports as homes for additional large utility plug-ins, anything that would require more than 512K of cartridge space to work in. One could even make an alternate memory map that reserves a much larger portion of CPU memory space for a cartridge, allowing bank-switching options to be simpler or even nonexistent. I would make that apply to only one of the slots and make the connector different so as to avoid confusion (maybe put it in a different area and leave three for regular cartridges). The key is to make the port a plus to users. 3 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevee671 Posted August 26 Author Share Posted August 26 You make a good point. Although I think having three or four cartridge slots sticking out the top is a bit overkill. Especially if there was a way to incorporate the commonly used carts onboard. No one uses TI-Basic, replace it with the latest Rev. of ext. or adv basic. Include E/A, DM2, you could probably throw a word processor/spreadsheet in there as well. These can be standard in the menu. The /8 has clean lines and a good looking aesthetic about it. Even A500/1200s and ST computers are easy on the eyes. Maybe more the cart port to the rear of the machine? Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+FarmerPotato Posted August 26 Share Posted August 26 1 hour ago, stevee671 said: I think carts can go away. If there was a way to incorporate a Final GROM in the design, everything can be placed on a microSD card on the main board of the system. A big reason why I put in a cartridge slot is to keep the physicality. And why re invent the Final GROM when it's a finished product? Just plug it in. @Ksarul makes a good point about Dragon's Lair and future hacks that would be foreclosed. Another physicality: the big MMC size flash. I dislike micro SD cards because they are so easy to lose. With a RasPi you seldom swap that one SD. But my card slots are intended to be tiny floppy drives. Hence the full-size MMC slots. Everybody has spare SD adapters right? Another one: HexBus ports. It's a 99/8 legacy. New stuff is getting made. The TiPi interface is a must-have. Onboarding or adapting the DSR ROM is easy. There could just be a port for the cable. And I'm not comfortable with hiding a RasPi inside though. Why bother having all the other parts? I'd sooner incorporate a 3rd party network chip like WizNet. Or use a 90s TI chip for Ethernet. (Yes TI once wrote a driver in 9900 assembly. I doubt it will ever turn up.) but then you need a TCP/IP stack. 2 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/371458-ti-9922-project/page/2/#findComment-5522657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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