Looking for 90 degrees polar rotation of my 2 Sega scope Goggles

[netrogames]

I am really close to proving that if your total monitor ping is one millisecond or less, that the Sega Master System glasses will work correctly on a modern 1 millisecond monitor. 

 

The problem is when I look at the screen upright, I could see the real world objects but the screen is totally black. 

 

That makes me think that the Sega Scope is really a pair of polarizations one that is constant and one that is variable that turns on and off with electricity being alternately sent and that's it.

 

When I ran this experiment to a modern CRT VGA monitor I got a perfectly good picture so I know my converter is not too slow.  By the way my converter is a RetroTink 2X Pro M.

 

The secret is to rotate either the glasses or the screen 90°.

 

I tried to put my monitor in tate mode, but the problem is a program which makes it display in the picture through the Macintosh might be too slow for the Sega Master System SegaScope.  

 

I can get too distinct images when I put two SQ11 cameras in front of a Sega Scope and run it live however the stereoscopy is off because It assumes you're viewing the picture with the eyes side by side but rotating your head put your eyeballs in a vertical position which makes the two corresponding eyes not the corresponding cameras for the two left and right images.

 

I could either rely on this app maker who makes capture card viewing equipment to get it really quickly through to the point where it adds almost no time...

 

Or I could take actions into my own hands and hire someone to rotate the polar shields on two Sega master system devices 90° each.  I assume there is both an inner shield and an outer shield and the fact that they're 90° relative to each other blocks out one eye. 

 

The problem is the constant shield screens out the image on my TN 1 millisecond monitor. 

 

Maybe there is something pre-existing that is exactly the same as a Sega master system SegaScope except is naturally made for modern TVs and is polar rotated 90° relative to the Sega Scope. 

 

If something is pre-existing out there that plugs into a 3.5 mm TRS cable that will not filter out the screen 100% of the time but only filter it out during the dead eye, please let me know and I'll buy a couple pairs. 

 

If not, and if I show this works, this could be a fairly lucrative business of retuning Sega Scopes to work with modern one millisecond monitors.

 

The other thing this will do is it'll help me when I describe an invention to add 3D to any TV.  The only caveat is you need a 1 millisecond monitor for the timing to be correct. 

 

There could be a newer version which would take higher ping times and could compensate for those higher ping times automatically which will turn any TV into a 3D TV just by adding 3D (by the way if you understand the 3D marketplace at around 2011 you know why the only way 3D could survive is if it's an add-on separate to the television display unit.  If they are built in certain anti-3DTV activists will overbid on non-3D TVs thus bringing it back to the way the market was in 2012.) 

 

Also I told my dad wait until they make an addon adapter because that's what the Sega Master System Sega Scope 3d was.

 

Unfortunately ping time of non CRT monitors threw in  a wrinkle that is taking at least 10 years to get around.

 

A lot of people's PlayStation 3D TVs are getting broken through age.  And even though that was considered the gold standard of modern 3D TVs in terms of ping time, even that has ping time compared to a CRT TV.  And by the time one millisecond monitors came out 3D monitors was a dead cause.  So there is no accurate low ping way to play a 3D game currently right now and I'm trying to work to get us there.

[Zoyous]

I can't help with the technical task, but I assume you've tested this by holding the glasses sideways and viewing through one lens at a time?

[netrogames]

45 minutes ago, Zoyous said:

I can't help with the technical task, but I assume you've tested this by holding the glasses sideways and viewing through one lens at a time?

Yes I did I got two pictures that were unique on both ends and they were both steady pictures.  And they were different from each other.  The only difference was that their stereoscopic horizon was rotated 90° so that the 3D effects don't look right. 

 

I was considering putting my monitor in tate mode, but the problem is I have to put it through my computer in order to put it in tate mode.  And I got to find an ultra low ping way to display it on the tape mode which I paid a few bucks for someone to try but it wasn't quite right.  I don't know exactly what the problem is but it's like the Macintosh processor adds an extra millisecond or two when taking the inputs and outputting it to a tated monitor. 

 

I could either rely on this guy to get the display quick enough where there's zero ping or I could have someone build these 90° rotated Sega Scope goggles.  The problem is the outer shell is considered perpendicular to two or three different monitors I tried both of which were rotated so that it optimized horizontal viewing. 

 

I have tested it and it does give two separate views and I believe that if I were able to rotate the polar filters on a set of Sega Scope goggles, It should filter out modern TN monitors correctly by not filtering them out at the base level.  

 

I believe it should not disturb a regular CRT viewing of these glasses nor should it disturb it going through VGA CRT.  

 

So does anyone know where to find a 90 degrees rotated polarity TRS 3.5 mm shutter 3d glasses pre-built?

 

Based on my tests it should work

[Zoyous]

18 hours ago, netrogames said:

So does anyone know where to find a 90 degrees rotated polarity TRS 3.5 mm shutter 3d glasses pre-built?

If you don't get any further responses here, you could describe your project on the SMS Power forums, where there is a small but technically-skilled community: https://www.smspower.org/forums/

[netrogames]

Hello.  I tried to log into SMS power.org, signed up with a new account, and then clicked the confirm link, but it won't let me log in the SMSPower.

 

How do I contact the admins about this?

 

I don't see a contact admin link.

 

Also I've got a question about the goggles.

 

To completely black out one eye, you need 2 polar filters that are 90 degrees out of phase of each other rotationally.

 

The front lens of the goggles have one of the 2 filters.  Hence why looking through them makes them dark.

 

The other inner  lenses are variably and alternately  on and off,   I assume activating the second filter with an electric signal and deactivating it with a lack of one.

 

The signal jumps from one to the other eye. When electrified, the electrified polar shield plus the constant polar shield which is 90 degrees out of rotational phase, totally blocks that eye for a frame.

 

There is a pair of glasses that are TRS glasses available at Amazon. Which work with DLP and CRT TVs .   They said modern Blu Ray players don't work with these glasses.   They said they work with Master System but you may have to adjust one or both eyes' polarity to work with modern low ping monitors.

 

If you look up "3.5mm TRS Shutter 3d glasses" on Google, you'll see a $96 item on Amazon.  That's the model I'm looking at.  

 

Are they twin layered electrified filters that can be rotatable? If they are then they are the best of all worlds,  no constant half filter always on in front, bright picture, and can be tuned to any modern monitor assuming it's 1 ms ping time.

 

 

[netrogames]

Hello.

 

I am still having trouble logging into a new account at SMSpower.org

 

There is no admin contacts as far as I can tell.

 

I can't get in.  Help

[Zoyous]

On 10/8/2024 at 12:27 AM, netrogames said:

Hello.

 

I am still having trouble logging into a new account at SMSpower.org

 

There is no admin contacts as far as I can tell.

 

I can't get in.  Help

I left a message and the site admin says your account has now been activated.

[tripletopper]

Hello I did a couple updates.  First of all I couldn't negotiate SMS power very well to figure out where would be the appropriate place to discuss my experiments with getting the Sega Master System Sega Scope working with a modern monitor. 

 

Second of all I found this McIntosh app called Console Link which is supposed to take direct video input of any USB device and display it on a TV as close to live as noticeably possible.  (In other words zero practical  ping for every purpose except light gun game purposes) 

 

I'm getting a couple screwy issues First of all the stereoscopy is correct when I use the tate mode In my apple OS for the second monitor to orient it vertically.  The polar filter has been breached. 

 

Now the question is what does both the retro tank 2X Pro M, which is my component to HDMI converter combined with a generic Amazon HDMI to USB converter for input capture cards combined with Apples native display tendencies.

 

When I first looked at it, I assumed that either 30 Hz or 60 Hertz would work the best because the Sega Master System SegaScope either uses 240p 30 * twin eyes alternating or uses 480i 15 * twin eyes.

 

When I did convert it to a real physical VGA CRT the ping was correct.  If I plug my Sega Scope directly in my 3.5 mm port and watched the TV after being processed by the retro tank and then go straight to an HDMI monitor It was working correctly. 

 

There's either something in the TN technology that doesn't quite work right or there's something in the requirement to put it on the Mac in order to put it in tate mode that doesn't work quite right. 

 

I noticed for resolution you could only choose 1920x1080x30, or 1280x640 x either 30 50 or 60.

 

The effect I get is the focus of the 3D kind of gradually tunes in and out of focus. 

 

I know the display port version of a second monitor going through the Mac does let you have variable monitors rates.  Anywhere from 45 to 144 Hz.  If I have this guy add variable monitor rate as an option for input in his app, and set my monitor output at variable monitor rate, I heard that these things actually have 59.97 Hz and that slight adjustment knocks off the Sega Master System Sega Scope.  But it didn't on a CRT VGA monitor.

 

If that's the case and my diagnosis is correct then wouldn't a solution be to have the app guy an "original resolution mode" And then send it to my monitor in tate mode.

 

Or if the HDMI signal is correct from Mike Chi, who makes the Retrotink stuff, then the rule is mess with it as little as possible and all you need is a tate  mode adapter that could rotate the picture 90 180 and 270° and properly display it on the HDMI and not have to worry about this app guy trying to get the synd properly done with the Sega Scope.

 

I could either rely on Mike Chi to make a add on Tate adapter for Sega Master System, assuming the Retrotink 2X Pro-M  does its job correctly, or the makers of the console link app for Apple Macintosh which is on the Mac App Store which means Apple guarantees it and backs it up and would refund if there was gross negligence on the part of the app maker. 

 

Who knows? Maybe there is already a pre-existing tate mode adapter for HDMI monitors that I don't know.

 

Just wondering if my analysis sounds correct.

[phoenixdownita]

Isn’t having multiple accounts NOT allowed?

 

[tripletopper]

About that.  I couldn't log in to my main account when it changed from "username" to "email" log in when Atari bought AtariAge.  My email may have been back from the days I had a Kent State account and I don't own it anymore.  So I temporarily logged in as Netrogames.  

 

I wasn't doing any "sock puppetry."

 

BTW Tripletopper was my original unified identity on the web, but I've recently been using other identities, (but with no sock puppetry or other types of  pretending they are different people.). Maybe Netrogames could be my videogame-specific identity.   I can unify them by publicly claiming it so on both accounts.  I just don't know if I want to have different more focused identities or a universal one.  I guess too many people know me as Tripletopper so I shouldn't change.

[tripletopper]

Hello,  an update on the Sega master system Sega Scope 3D working on monitors. 

 

I hooked up my rotated monitor to a capture card which supposedly has one millisecond ping time, because it's advertised as a USB 3.0 capture card.  (I don't know if that is automatically true or if I need to test it) But when rotating the monitor I noticed I could see both images through the glasses. That's the good news.

 

The bad news is it was so close... Like for first second or two the frames were in perfect sink or close enough for hand grenade purposes, then the pictures started to fade out of focus then come back in focus Does a radical eye shift after it comes back into focus and then goes back Out of focus then into focus and then back, and so forth. 

 

A few questions about these different technologies so I could see where my next step is.

 

Is it true that the Sega master system relied on NTSC being 59.97 Hz? 

 

I have one of those newfangled variable rate monitors that plug in through the display port and I have a Thunderbolt to display port connector, and I noticed I could select variable frame rate.

 

Assuming every piece of equipment can handle variable frame rate like the Retrotink, The Macintosh and my monitor, I assume that if this guy writes a program that has various different modes but doesn't have a 59.97 mode with a specific 59.97 Hz mode for the input and assuming my capture card could do 59.97 Hz input and assuming retrotink can maintain 59.97 Hz output It should get the timing correct because my monitor can assuming I understand the feature correctly maintain a constant 59.97.  

 

The closest sync up I got to was 60 hertz.  And that is so close where you could have a couple of seconds of great clarity and then some gradual misfocus and then back to gradual focus.

 

Okay so I could rely lie on the guy who writes the app for a console capture card to make a 59.97 Hertz mode. 

 

Another option is finding an unpolarized or 90° offset polarized monitor of some sort. 

 

I know CRTs, even CRT VGAs,  work perfectly.  I forgot whether it had the focus problems or not and whether or not VGA CRTs can do 59.97 Hertz or not.  

 

Apparently according to Best Buy polarization is a necessary feature of being a low ping TN monitor.  I don't know if you could avoid it by intentionally polarizing in the opposite direction 90° offset or if that would necessarily be impossible based on the way the current codes are set up.

 

The only other option is to find someone who could do surgery on my two Sega Scopes and rotate both the inner polar filters and the outer polar shield 90° in polarity for all of them.  

 

Is it correct to assume that a CRT TV from back in the 2000s or earlier does not have any kind of polar filter?  If so then this mod would still work on a CRT TV after modding it but should work on modern monitors too.

 

Short of going downstairs and setting up a second studio with the CRT, which I was going to do anyway, what's more likely to happen?: the app maker adding a 59.97 hurts mode and then seeing if it works with a variable rate monitor, or finding a guy who's willing to operate on a pair of Sega Scope glasses.

 

Wait a second, I've seen 3.5 mm glasses that lets you rotate the outer and  inner filters. I believe if that's the case, because they say it does work on a Sega Master System, but they didn't say if it worked with a modern monitor, I don't know if those would be an acceptable substitute for modern TVs and original SegaScope hardware.

 

I could go downstairs and do it on my CRT TV, But the state of the art isn't advancing if I do that.  Just wondering if anyone's got some advice, suggestions, would like to offer their services for a nominal fee for the said surgery on the Sega Scope glasses?

[Zoyous]

Sega Retro's article on Master System technical specifications lists the following refresh rates:

 

Quote

Refresh rate: 59.922743 Hz (NTSC), 49.701459 Hz (PAL)

 

Source