JPF997 Posted October 31 Share Posted October 31 (edited) Maybe if incredible games like Rikki and Vikki , Cash Cow and Donut Dodo had existed back then and were exclusive to the 7800 it might have stood a chance, imo the big problem is that almost no one (including Atari themselves) took advantage of the systems power and it suffered commercially because of it. Edited October 31 by JPF997 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted October 31 Share Posted October 31 No One reason is Atari shot themselves in the foot by killing the 5200 after less than 2 years on the market, and then not even releasing the 7800 that was supposed to replace it for another two years. And the new management at Atari didn't take console games seriously until Nintendo was already kicking their asses. Only Atari die-hards would still trust the brand after moves like this. 9 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558089 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwilove Posted October 31 Share Posted October 31 There was no Atari 7800 Hardware Reference Manual available or any such guide to developing on the 7800, so there was no encouragement for interested 3rd parties to develop for this hardware. Likewise I cannot recall Jack Tramiel encouraging new software development for the XL/XE line of computers, like the continuation of the APX or such like. Like promoting a program/game of the year contest was all that was needed. Not that this was any guarantee of making new innovative software available out of thin air. It's hard to explain how Synapse suddenly appeared out of nowhere to produce it's range of titles for the Atari 400/800 computers but didn't continue onwards with the XL/XE computers. Harvey 2 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPF997 Posted October 31 Author Share Posted October 31 23 minutes ago, zzip said: No One reason is Atari shot themselves in the foot by killing the 5200 after less than 2 years on the market, and then not even releasing the 7800 that was supposed to replace it for another two years. And the new management at Atari didn't take console games seriously until Nintendo was already kicking their asses. Only Atari die-hards would still trust the brand after moves like this. I mean this was the pre internet era, how many people would really know that Jack Tramiel didn't take video games seriously ? How many casuals would even know that the 5200 existed or had failed ? You hear stories all the time of people from that period not even knowing that a gaming crash had actually happened, the past isn't what doomed the 7800 the lack of high quality exclusives that could compete with Mario and Zelda is what killed the consoles chances in the end ( at least that's how I look at it ). 1 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558106 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Monkey Posted October 31 Share Posted October 31 3 minutes ago, JPF997 said: I mean this was the pre internet era, how many people would really know that Jack Tramiel didn't take video games seriously ? How many casuals would even know that the 5200 existed or had failed ? You hear stories all the time of people from that period not even knowing that a gaming crash had actually happened, the past isn't what doomed the 7800 the lack of high quality exclusives that could compete with Mario and Zelda is what killed the consoles chances in the end ( at least that's how I look at it ). What the fuck is this? 1 1 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPF997 Posted October 31 Author Share Posted October 31 Just now, Lost Monkey said: What the fuck is this? An opinion on a gaming history related topic? What did you think this was ? 1 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558110 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakasama Posted October 31 Share Posted October 31 You’re talking to a bunch over 40 dudes (I happen to be a part of that demographic) that lived through that era gaming. This would be beating a dead horse which would smelly paste with broken bone fragments at this point. Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted October 31 Share Posted October 31 I thought you were done making dumb threads? 7 5 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPF997 Posted October 31 Author Share Posted October 31 1 minute ago, Bakasama said: You’re talking to a bunch over 40 dudes (I happen to be a part of that demographic) that lived through that era gaming. This would be beating a dead horse which would smelly paste with broken bone fragments at this point. Contrary to what some might believe I don't create topics with the intent to cause controversy, I do genuinely like asking the old timers their opinions on these topics and starting fun conversations, this topic is very similar to those alternative history videos you see on YouTube . Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Monkey Posted October 31 Share Posted October 31 38 minutes ago, JPF997 said: I mean this was the pre internet era, how many people would really know that Jack Tramiel didn't take video games seriously ? How many casuals would even know that the 5200 existed or had failed ? You hear stories all the time of people from that period not even knowing that a gaming crash had actually happened, the past isn't what doomed the 7800 the lack of high quality exclusives that could compete with Mario and Zelda is what killed the consoles chances in the end ( at least that's how I look at it ). Ok, I'll bite. You are asking this: "I mean this was the pre internet era, how many people would really know that Jack Tramiel didn't take video games seriously ?" How is it even remotely possible that your conclusion regarding Jack not taking games seriously was that Atari was somehow 'cancelled' for it? 🤣 Jack didn't care about video games, so Atari didn't throw many resources at the video game market, which ended up being dominated by Nintendo. Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted October 31 Share Posted October 31 33 minutes ago, JPF997 said: I mean this was the pre internet era, how many people would really know that Jack Tramiel didn't take video games seriously ? When you see the games that Nintendo and Sega were releasing like SMB and then notice that the 7800 launch lineup is a bunch of four-year old pre-crash arcade titles, you don't need the internet to figure out how behind the times Atari was. 35 minutes ago, JPF997 said: How many casuals would even know that the 5200 existed or had failed ? If you were one of the people who shelled out $269 for an Atari 5200 (almost $900 in today's money) only to have it killed off so quickly, you would be pretty annoyed and not likely to invest in another Atari console. That would be a huge scandal If that happened in the internet age. If Sony killed the Playstation 5 off after 19 mos and released an incompatible PS6 instead (that ends up getting delayed) it would probably destroy the brand. 40 minutes ago, JPF997 said: You hear stories all the time of people from that period not even knowing that a gaming crash had actually happened, the past isn't what doomed the 7800 the lack of high quality exclusives that could compete with Mario and Zelda is what killed the consoles chances in the end ( at least that's how I look at it ). A lot of the people who didn't notice the crash were the people who were part of the crash. They lost interest in videogames around 83/84 when most people did , then got back into videogames again around 1988 when the NES and SMB were hot. They were interested in the current hot thing and not specifically interested in "what is Atari up to these days?" Those of us who had a steady interest in games the whole time couldn't miss the crash.. most stores dropped most of their videogame inventory, videogame magazines folded, many arcades closed, many of our friends lost interest in games. It was a depressing time to be a gamer. 5 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted October 31 Share Posted October 31 47 minutes ago, kiwilove said: Likewise I cannot recall Jack Tramiel encouraging new software development for the XL/XE line of computers, like the continuation of the APX or such like There was a time around 85 when very little new software was being release for Atari computers (while C64 and Apple II was getting many new releases). It picked up somewhat in 86/87. I don't know if that was Jack & Co's encouragement or just developers seeing that he released new XE models so that Atari 8 line isn't dead yet.. But they did work with game developers to port disk-based games to cart for the XEGS. Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558139 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPF997 Posted October 31 Author Share Posted October 31 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Lost Monkey said: Ok, I'll bite. You are asking this: "I mean this was the pre internet era, how many people would really know that Jack Tramiel didn't take video games seriously ?" How is it even remotely possible that your conclusion regarding Jack not taking games seriously was that Atari was somehow 'cancelled' for it? 🤣 What I was referring to is that there wasn't a mass consumer backlash against Jacks shenanigans and how he was running Atari like there was for example against Sega for the Sega 32X or against Xbox for the Xbox One launch fiasco. 17 minutes ago, Lost Monkey said: Jack didn't care about video games, so Atari didn't throw many resources at the video game market, which ended up being dominated by Nintendo. I never stated otherwise, I think apathy from gamers towards the 7800s library is what doomed it more than any other external factor, it's unfortunate that great games like Donut Dodo or Rikki and Vikki weren't around back then to save the 7800 from commercial failure. Edited October 31 by JPF997 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted October 31 Share Posted October 31 19 minutes ago, JPF997 said: What I was referring to is that there wasn't a mass consumer backlash against Jacks shenanigans and how he was running Atari like there was for example against Sega for the Sega 32X or against Xbox for the Xbox One launch fiasco. Jack was a computer guy, and was intending to run Atari as a computer company. In the mid-80s many gamers jumped to computers because that was the only gaming segment that was growing, and innovating. As far as running Atari as a computer business, Jack did ok... he announced products the customers wanted. Many took longer to get to market than we would have liked though. The ST sold pretty well the first couple of years. The conventional wisdom at the time was that consoles were dead, computers were the future so he wasn't getting a lot of negativity or bad press for ignoring the console market at first. I do think the 7800 would have fared better if Warner hadn't sold the company. Warner was ready to release the 7800 in 1984 during the crash, they had a very competent video game marketing department (assuming they kept it and didn't massively downsize it to cut costs). By 1986 the 7800 could have had a much better game library than what it had in our timeline. Maybe those newer games would even include POKEY chips to address the 7800's biggest Achilles heel. 4 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPF997 Posted October 31 Author Share Posted October 31 Also just to avoid any confusion when I said that the 7800 lacked high quality exclusives I meant in the eyes of the public, for me Asteroids and Centipede 7800 are just as fun to play as the Super Mario Bros and Zeldas of the world, unfortunately that's not how the public at large sees it, now if the 7800 had received games like Donut Dodo and Cash Cow during it's heyday maybe the public would have reacted differently towards it. Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
slx Posted October 31 Share Posted October 31 3 hours ago, kiwilove said: It's hard to explain how Synapse suddenly appeared out of nowhere to produce it's range of titles for the Atari 400/800 computers but didn't continue onwards with the XL/XE computers. When the XL computers came out most of the potential buyers still used 400/800s (especially in the US), so it did not make much commercial sense to publish "XL only" software. It might have helped if Atari had designed the XL to use Axlon style bank switching as that would have allowed 800 users to buy a memory card to use software requiring more than 48K. Synapse got into cash problems after the Tramiel takeover (according Wikipedia due to not being paid for productivity software) and was sold to Brøderbund. Those financial problems probably did not help in creating new games and the "electronic novel" games they created apparently didn't sell that well. Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapitanClassic Posted October 31 Share Posted October 31 No. As I mentioned in the SMS over NES thread, Nintendo got the necessary 3rd party support, and a big list of hit games by 1988. The 7800 had just over 30 total games released, and most of the best ones were arcade conversions of games that were popular 5 years ago. Quote 1986 SMB, Excitebike, Kung Fu, Ghost’n Gobilns, Gradius 1987 Pro Wrestling, Castlevania, Kid Icarus, The Legend of Zelda, Rygar, Metroid, Rad Racer, Mike Tyson’s Punch-Out, The Goonies II, Top Gun, Mega Man, Wizards & Warriors 1988 Karnov, Contra, RC Pro-Am, Ice Hockey, Double Dragon, Metal Gear, RBI Baseball, Iron Tank, Legendary Wings, Life Force, Adventure Island, Jackal, 1943, Spy vs Spy, SMB2, Blaster Master, Bubble Bobble, Bionic Commando, Blades of Steel, Castlevania II, Rampage, Skate or Die, Zelda II 1 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
roots.genoa Posted October 31 Share Posted October 31 41 minutes ago, JPF997 said: now if the 7800 had received games like Donut Dodo and Cash Cow You do realize that none of these games have been made for the 7800, right? Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPF997 Posted October 31 Author Share Posted October 31 11 minutes ago, roots.genoa said: You do realize that none of these games have been made for the 7800, right? Sure but theoretically you could make games of that caliber for the 7800 hardware, the problem is no one ever truly took advantage of the consoles hardware capabilities ( same story with the 5200 and the Jaguar ). Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakasama Posted November 1 Share Posted November 1 4 hours ago, JPF997 said: Contrary to what some might believe I don't create topics with the intent to cause controversy, I do genuinely like asking the old timers their opinions on these topics and starting fun conversations, this topic is very similar to those alternative history videos you see on YouTube . Thanks to hobbyists working on the 7800 over the years we generally have an idea how powerful it was but it falls back the 7800 never really got support it could have back in the day. At least the carts were designed with external sound chips in mind. If I wanted alt history, I read something written by Turtledove. 1 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebor Posted November 1 Share Posted November 1 Oh good, one of THESE comparison to/versus (*insert system here* - lands on *nes*) kind of THREADS... https://forums.atariage.com/topic/269801-7800-graphics-showcase-nes-competitor https://forums.atariage.com/topic/283460-comparing-homebrew-scene-nes-vs-7800 https://forums.atariage.com/topic/85545-the-7800-vs-nintendo-nes-could-the-7800-have-done-better https://forums.atariage.com/topic/164639-i-think-now-i-understand-why-the-nes-beat-the-7800 https://forums.atariage.com/topic/318937-why-was-7800-discontinued https://forums.atariage.com/topic/121299-nes-vs-7800 https://forums.atariage.com/topic/235347-another-5-qs-if-atari-corp-did-the-deal-with-the-nes-or-genesiswould https://forums.atariage.com/topic/176524-7800-what-did-atari-wrong https://forums.atariage.com/topic/18476-comparing-the-nes-and-7800-on-a-technical-level https://forums.atariage.com/topic/334813-it’s-a-miracle-the-nes-sold-like-hot-cakes ...not ENOUGH of them. 5 1 4 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeM_ Posted November 1 Share Posted November 1 I think a more interesting topic to ponder is; with the 7800+ coming out, and Atari releasing new titles, how far might Atari and the homebrew community be able to ride the wave and push the boundaries of the 7800. 7 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558346 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrunchyTC Posted November 1 Share Posted November 1 5 minutes ago, MikeM_ said: I think a more interesting topic to ponder is; with the 7800+ coming out, and Atari releasing new titles, how far might Atari and the homebrew community be able to ride the wave and push the boundaries of the 7800. Thats what I'm hoping for. I am hoping for the homebrew community to look at what Atari is doing, and jump into take advantage of such a rare opportunity to make there own games for a retro console, and actually have the support of the company that made the console. 4 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558347 Share on other sites More sharing options...
roots.genoa Posted November 1 Share Posted November 1 8 hours ago, JPF997 said: Sure but theoretically you could make games of that caliber for the 7800 hardware, the problem is no one ever truly took advantage of the consoles hardware capabilities ( same story with the 5200 and the Jaguar ). I get it, but once again I think you have to change your perspective on how it was back then. Donut Dodo and Cash Cow may be great games, but they clearly have a retro flavor; the nostalgia factor is strong in our appreciation of these games. So if they had been released in the mid 80s on the 7800, for starters they wouldn't have looked that good, but most of all they would have felt dated. Because they emulate games from the early 80s. Donut Dodo doesn't even feature a scrolling. What people here are keeping on telling you is that the NES offered deep games like Super Mario Bros and Zelda, while the 7800 had to settle with ports of old arcade games, precisely. So bringing more of that wouldn't have changed anything, even if that may seem unfair. Especially since the games you're talking about really need to be played to get how fun they are. 3 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Biff Burgertime Posted November 1 Share Posted November 1 Sorry, what is this "Cash Cow" game being referred to here? I've seen Donut Dodo pop up but am not familiar with Cash Cow. Help a Burger out! Edit: This? 1 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/374684-do-you-think-there-was-any-chance-for-the-7800-to-beat-the-nes/#findComment-5558415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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