Mental Kombat Label Contest!

[Mindfield]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Russ Perry Jr:

You know, looking at some of these labels, I'm a little surprised that there aren't any "reference" labels (like Scanners, Einstein) to (in order of surprise):

 

The Mindmaster

the aliens from The Menagerie (Star Trek)

the psycop mind war practicers from Babylon 5

---

 

At the risk of either dating myself or sounding like a complete geek, I've no idea who The Mindmaster is. For the rest, I didn't even think about 'em -- probably because I've never been a big ST:TOS fan, nor have I watched much Babylon 5 since Bruce Boxleitner took the helm. (I never really liked him as an actor... I liked the original captain better. Bruce is too much of an overactor for my tastes -- a little too overdramatic. Kinda like Kevin Sorbo ... hated him as Hercules, and found it a profanity against all things Trekkie when they cast him in Enterprise)

 

About the only "reference" label I worked up was "The Creation of Adam" label I did. I don't know exactly why I did it, except that for some reason the image popped into my head as appropriate, so I went pillaging the Capella Sistena website for a pic of that particular Michelangelo work. I don't normally like nicking other people's work... kinda strikes me as a little commercial, but I figured I might as well. A little creative masking to put the game board in there and it'd work. :-)

[liveinabin]

Nice one Jason!

I'm trying to place the face on your label.

Isn't that Dennis Quaid in the Enemy Mine poster? I'm probably way off

[Albert]

I have removed Simon's message since it was truncated as it looks like the message boards have been in an unstable state for the last 12 hours or so. This happened to coincide with my cable modem going out (again) at around 8pm last night, so it's only fitting that things like this would occur then. I believe I fixed the problem, although I'm going to be watching the boards like a hawk all day to see if they crop up again.

 

In the meantime, I have asked Simon to repost his message where he announced the winner (Jason Parlee's #3 Submission, for those who didn't see it).

 

..Al

[Lemmi]

Things started to go haywire around 12:30 am est last night 11:30 pm your time, but this is only for me when it was going wierd

[Atmims]

Yes that is Dennis Quaid from Enemy Mine:

http://www.obisreviews.com/reviews/enemymine.html

 

I've already posted a message mentioning this but it looks like it was deleted. I don't agree with Simon's choice since I just wouldn't feel right using artwork from a movie poster in my game cover.

I guess it's too late. Congratulations Jason. I think maybe next time though there should be rules against using existing artwork or clip art. I'm sure the other contestants,including me, are dissapointed that they spent a lot of time and did an original piece of artwork to get beat by a "collage".

Adrian Mims

[Doc4]

What the heck is all this crap about Jason winning. That is the biggest piece of theft I have ever seen. He blatantly stole it from the EnemyMine poster, and although a good movie, Is not worth using using in conjunction with Atari.

 

It makes me sick, as a graphic designer, to sit here and watch everyone pour out real art like Efren Ramirez, and see them loose to a copied work.

 

So here Simon Q. is who worked so hard on his game and it's ruined by a bad piece of art. Oh, I may be a angry that I lost but I'm dissapointed that real art couldn't prevail. Maybe Simon should have just gotten a movie poster for the cover and not even bothered with this contest.

[Atmims]

I agree with you, I spent around 15 hours working on mine to try to make it look the best I could and as professional as possible. I'm not MAD that I lost cause I just entered the contest for the fun of it and to make what I personally thought looked good as a cover for the game. I wouldn't want the game to have a cover nobody liked so I didn't care wether I won or lost, I even made a front and back of the box for the fun of it. I'm mad though at what an effortless design I lost to, I'm sure any of us could have did the same design. I KNOW I could have did the same design and made it better. that was one of the last designs I thought would win since it's such an obvious copy. but oh well. It's over now and I wouldn't really care to win now even if Jason's design was disqualified.

[Atmims]

I agree with you, I spent around 15 hours working on mine to try to make it look the best I could and as professional as possible. I'm not MAD that I lost cause I just entered the contest for the fun of it and to make what I personally thought looked good as a cover for the game. I wouldn't want the game to have a cover nobody liked so I didn't care wether I won or lost, I even made a front and back of the box for the fun of it. I'm mad though at what an effortless design I lost to, I'm sure any of us could have did the same design. I KNOW I could have did the same design and made it better. that was one of the last designs I thought would win since it's such an obvious copy. but oh well. It's over now and I wouldn't really care to win now even if Jason's design was disqualified.

 

Adrian Mims

[Rhindle The Red]

Now, hold on everyone. I think you're taking this criticism a little too far. Your opinion is valid, but it is only your opinion. The use of images other than one's own in art is very old. Just look at Andy Warhol. Another example would be Jack Kirby or Wally Wood, both known for using found images in their artwork. There is even a quote from Wally Wood: "Don't draw what you can copy, don't copy what you can trace, don't trace what you can just put up there."

 

Ultimately, as someone who was obviously very close to winning this contest, I'm sorry I lost. But I'm not the judge of this contest and neither are any of you. Simon is the final arbiter and anyone who has a problem with that is simply wrong headed.

 

When you've taken the time to learn how to program for the 2600 and to make a game, then you can be the judge. This is Simon's game. This is Simon's contest. This is Simon's decision.

 

We should all respect that, whether we agree with his decision or not.

 

 

>>>end of sermon<<<

[Atmims]

I'm not critizing Simons decision because I don't believe he would have choose this design if he knew that the picture was copied from a movie poster. It seemed like he wanted it to be professional because he was planning on printing a box and book for it and to me basing your WHOLE label around another artwork isn't professional.

 

If Simon liked this idea That's fine and he should use it in his game. But I don't believe he would have choose it if he knew it was an obvious copy.

 

Adrian Mims

[MattyXB]

I give Rhindle The Red right. It was no rule againt this to use picture from somewhere else. I have too found my Aliens somewhere in the net and change a bit. Then I have use the Mental Combat Logo from the Titlescreen of the game. The rest is from me.

 

Maybe Simon have not know this, but when he know that, why can he not use this Lable for his game. I think too that many games use pictures from others and have not all paint themself.

 

The Contest make fun, and next time use too some pictures from everywhere. Maybe it look better and you win.

 

No War for this harmless things.

[Scooterb23]

As an outsider to this competition, and seeing the heated reactions to the choice of a label that had copied elements...if you had a problem with the copied art, shouldn't you have said something BEFORE the selection was made???????????????? As far as I can tell, that entry was up for several days before being chosen as the winner. It does no good to complain after the fact, it only serves to make you look bitter that you didn't win. I was not familiar with the origin of the picture, so if this were my contest, I would have probably picked that entry as well, as it was my personal favorite one also.

 

My 2 cents.

[Albert]

Due to problems we were having with the message board early this morning, I had to remove Simon's post where he announced the winner. The post was truncated and there wasn't an explanation of how he came to his decision (which I imagine he had typed). I imagine that Simon will repost his message as soon as he gets back online. Certainly he's unaware of the bit of controversy he's unleashed, and I'm sure he'll address that as well.

 

I would hate for there to be any bad feelings or ill-will as a result of this contest. I thoroughly enjoyed everyone's submissions and they will be on permanent display here at AtariAge. It's a fun way to demonstrate your artistic prowess with others in the hobby, regardless of the outcome. As Rhindle said, it's Simon's game and ultimately his decision and even if he chose a different label that contained only original art, certainly not everyone would agree with it. That's always going to be a problem when choosing "one" entrant from a field of worthy contendors.

 

..Al

[ATARIPITBULL]

First off, I am not going to say that I could have won, like some other people are saying, but there is something to be said about using pictures from movie posters instead of making something up your self. If that were the case, I could have saved my self a lot of time choosing colors for my pictures and just scaned a movie poster. plus, don't you need the owners of the movies permission to use it on the labels?.

with that said next time a label contest comes around, I should just use a movie poster and see if I can win.

[krisjohn]

Having seen the Enemy Mine poster it's obvious that the "winning" label can not be legally used without permission from 20th Century Fox and anyone else with a peice of the movie's copyright. And probably from Dennis Quaid himself.

 

I spent a lot of time securing permission for the photo in my submission to the previous contest, and I specifically used images in the public domain or in royalty-free clipart collections (that I had purchased) in this one.

 

Unless Jason Parlee can provide proof of permission of use of the Enemy Mine imagery, he may be the "winner", but another label will need to used for the final production.

 

I understand and agree with most of the outrage expressed in this forum by the other designers -- though my personal lack of talent puts a low cap on how mad I can get.

[Doc4]

Now, hold on everyone. I think you're taking this criticism a little too far. Your opinion is valid, but it is only your opinion. The use of images other than one's own in art is very old. Just look at Andy Warhol. Another example would be Jack Kirby or Wally Wood, both known for using found images in their artwork. There is even a quote from Wally Wood: "Don't draw what you can copy, don't copy what you can trace, don't trace what you can just put up there."

Simon is the final arbiter and anyone who has a problem with that is simply wrong headed.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

This is my reply to you reddog or whatever your name is. Your taking the context of true art for art sake, like Andy Warhol and somehow trying to apply it to a contest where we are asked to draw a label for a video game? Doesn't work like that. Andy Warhol, Jack Kirby and the others were not simply entering a contest to win a piece of plastic with some coded material on it. They are/were artists making art, whether that was for comic books, mass culture or attempting to make a point about extreme media and advertising. The majority of artists who do rip someone off usually have added a great deal of originality to it otherwise we call these people hacks, losers or whatever other name you would like.

 

The point I am trying to make is, just because Mr. Simon made the game doesn't mean he can legally sell it with copies of Andy Warhol, Jack Kirby, Paul Ruebens or my artwork on it without permission. Regardless, I disagree of your petty ravings on how we should suck it up and accept this. I feel this point should have been an unwritten law. You can't just go around and steal other peoples photos. We have stock photography or royalty free art which are open to advertisers, but you still have to pay for them because its illegal to take a picture someone else made and apply it to your own work and sell it. You can't sell a pencil for $5 and throw in the Warhol painting you scanned for free. It doesn't work like that.

 

I personally feel this contest was a farce. If the EnemyMine poster won, I could have just gone to the moviestore myself and picked out something to scan in, and still watched the movie later, I probably would have gotten more out of it.

[Doc4]

Oh and nobody likes Andy Warhol!

[krisjohn]

I like Andy Warhol. But I do think that trying to defend copyright violation by invoking his name is lazy.

 

Remember, making a painting of a Campbell's soup can is different from scanning in a Campbell's advertising poster and using it as the basis for the label of your own soup-related product.

[Mindfield]

Okay. I don't particularily care that I didn't win; it was fun doing it, and being that I don't even have a VCS console at the moment, the prize, other than being a showpiece, would have been of little use to me. I just wanted to have a little fun and see what I could do, as well as see what others have done with it.

 

Having said that, I do somewhat agree with the general consensus on the winning design. When I first saw it I thought, yeah, that does look pretty good for what it is, but that was largely due to the fact that most of it was nicked from the Enemy Mine poster. (Which was a durn good movie, too...) Cut it up, vertically mirror it, airbrush the playing board in between, then turn up the transparency -- voila. Nice for a work that was already half done before it began, but it wouldn't have been my choice as a winning design. I still consider it a valid entry -- I mean hey, it's not _ugly_ by any means. It just isn't terribly original.

 

And yes, I'm guilty of the same thing with the Creation of Adam label I did -- but I didn't at all expect that to win or even place. It was more of a joke; I sort of found the idea of the supreme deity and Man's ultimate father having a good go at the game amusing, and an hour of work saw it complete and uploaded. (Heck, I spent more time looking for a good scan of the image than I did doing the label...) Besides; I think the statute of limitations on that copyright expired about 400 years ago. :-)

 

Anyway, the issue seems to be that, on the whole, the creativity that went into the winning entry amounted to little more than a little Photoshop noodling, where the other designs required a fair amount more skill to compose, born as they were from pen or pixel. I don't think though that it was John's intent to simply slap something together from existing stock and call it a label -- at least, not in the traditional plagiaristic sense. I'm sure John felt he was doing a pretty good job with the skills and resources he had -- as we all did -- without giving thought to the idea that his own idea was, at least in part, someone else's. When I started writing music many years back, I used to redo other people's songs. I did this not because I wanted to pass them off as my own, but, having had no formal musical training of any kind, I used other people's songs to figure out what made them sound so good, and by taking them apart in my head and reconstructing them myself using whatever instrumentation I had access to, learned how a song was more properly put together. I was later able to extrapolate what I learned to write my own music which, over time, could only be called my own. I'm sure that John's at a similar stage in his own artistic expression, using existing works to try and formulate his own.

 

I'm not excusing the practise, of course, just maybe offering some possible insight. We all started somewhere, and more often than not it began with someone else's stuff -- and continued so until we learned to shed the crutches existing material to bolster our own and strike out with original material for the first time.

 

In the end of course it was entirely Simon's decision. If he liked it, it was purely his perogative to choose it. We don't have to like or agree with his decision. Just abide by it. We could all gripe about it all we want, but in the end that's what it all comes down to. I honestly can't say I particularily liked or agreed with his choice -- but that's just my opinion which obviously is shared by a number of people. But Simon liked it, and given that it's his game, he's the final arbiter in this contest, and he's chosen, so congratulations, John. I didn't win, and that's cool -- I had fun, and that's what mattered to me.

[Doc4]

I think what I'm most disgusted by is the lack of integrity these people have that are making these games. I'm not putting them down for the creation of the games themselves, in fact I'm glad someone is doing it. But what gets me is that the majority of them choose the most god-aweful labels possible, take for example the okie dokie labels, what the hell was that about. The gunslinger label though, I have to admit was impressive. I was really glad to see it win.

But there is no culture or taste among the designers, at least at Atari and Activision they had artists with a standard, albeit occationally variating, but for the most part these labels looked similar. Same fonts different pictures but with this format they tended to look good. Where the hell are those deigners today, there should be a standard set not to allow trash to slip through the cracks.

I personally feel that Simon Q. should have had the AtariAge visitors and members vote for the best label. At least that way he would be void of all contact with blame and I could rest easier knowing that I had a democratic vote in getting a decent label put on, what appears to be an interesting game. But what happens, a bumbling photoshop user takes on the movies throws in some non Atari fonts, attempt to create the Atari look and wins. I will have Simon know that I did my hardest to create the look of the original Atari carts. I not only located the Atarian Fonts and Bauhaus Fonts but also threw in exacting size and detail. I personally hand drew that dude with the hands on his mouth. (Dale Crum #4)

I honestly didn't know if Simon wanted it and I thought for sure that one of the best original pieces was Efren Ramirez #6 I actually felt it was the closest to an original cart picture than the rest. Although in all honesty I would have combined several of the designs into one perfect piece.

It makes me sick to see people settle for less than perfect and Simon certainly could have had that. But as non artists often do, they don't understand similarities and subtle differences such as font faces and positioning. (Not to dog Simon too much, my apologies, I'm simply using you as an example.) Anyway, the only reason I logged onto this board was to complain about loosing and I think I have acomplished that. I just didn't want to sit here and watch the hard work of others and myself discarded like a parking ticket and not say anything. I will do my best to be nicer about this.

signed - one angry Atari lover. If Manny Gerard was working for me, I would sick him on Simon like a pitbull for pulling this stunt and Atari would have reigned supreme forever.

[Lemmi]

Well with all this stuff being said

 

I would have bought this game had this label won just for the MOVIE picture of the guy from Scanners

http://www.atariage.com/features/MentalKom...onParlee_4.html

 

but it didnt win another label won

 

And life goes on as it was before

[moycon]

I have yet to see which sub-mission actually won the contest. My first choice I listed as my fav was Chris P's #2. I then changed it to Jasons P.#1.. And then finally to Jason P.#3. Obviously others felt this was a good design because everybody started sub-mitting lables based on the same. Two mirrored people either side of the board. It was a great design and he did it first and best. To be honest I thought the image was familiar, but never did place it with Enemy Mine. Now that I know the truth the lable is still the best in my humble opinion. Jasons lable was one of the first to be submitted, It would be interesting to hear how many complains were logged at that time. I think everybody bitching about his work in the name of true art after the fact really insults the boards intelligence. If you all felt THIS strongly about your craft and had a lick of sense you'd have said something BEFORE the winner was announced. Perhaps it wasnt an issue at that time? Maybe you only felt this way recently? In either case it reeks of flakiness. I certainly hope the decision stands. I think that its ironic 20th Century Fox released the film and they used to make Atari carts. And yes I realize there is legal aspects to consider... But that has nothing to do with the design or the choice. If that becomes an issue it can be delt with when the time comes.

 

My 2 cents.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Originally posted by carminethebowler:

[QB]I think what I'm most disgusted by is the lack of integrity these people have that are making these games. I'm not putting them down for the creation of the games themselves, in fact I'm glad someone is doing it. But what gets me is that the majority of them choose the most god-aweful labels possible, take for example the okie dokie labels, what the hell was that about. The gunslinger label though, I have to admit was impressive. I was really glad to see it win.

But there is no culture or taste among the designers, ...

Come on, you are going way to far.

 

Are you able to write games for the 2600? No? Ok, then you don't have any idea how much blood sweat and tears are there. It takes months and hundreds of hours to program a game! The label is only a very little part of the whole work.

 

So, if somebody decides to write a game and then wants to make the label HE likes the best, it's his damn good right to do so!

 

Sure, some labels could look better, but they are not meant to satisfy you (or any other artist) but the programmer.

 

What do you prefer: A good game with an ugly label (which you can replace if you really want to) or a beautyful artwork label and a game that sucks?

 

Game designers have a culture, believe me, I'm one of them. It's just totally different to yours (we are not ranting against people we dont understand). And I'm not unhappy about that

[liveinabin]

I'd prefer a gorgeous label on a game that really sucks (just kidding )

[mchenry]

Two ideas for the next label contest ( if there will by a other one after this discussion ) :

 

- The user must assure that he doesn't use parts under copyright law. Except : ATARI-Fonts and Logos

This is normally part of every Computer-Photo-Design-Contest I have participated.

 

- All label submissions will displayed after the contest deadline.

 

To moycon :

Simon gave an exact idea for what he'd like to see. And so it's normal that most label artworks

has the same look. And so it was expected, that this kind of artwork win.

Everyone who don't make a artwork with this specifications must know that he hasn't a

big change to win