dirty2600 Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 Well this really has become quite a controversy, nay, a legend of epic proportions, I am officially intereseted......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That80sGuy Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 I believe it happened. But what most people seem to be overlooking is fact that the article mentions the fact that whole boxed SYSTEMS were also being dumped. Atari was gearing up for the 5200 therefore the 2600 had to be removed from the market. Also, after 22 years this kind of thing takes on a life of its own and facts get twisted over time. I think Spud should be commended for his outstanding effort to bring this part of ATARI history out of the realm of myth and give it some reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That80sGuy Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 http://www.atarimuseum.com/articles/burials.html This helps put the burials into perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 Ah, yes, the infamous Money Pit. I thought you were going half and half with me to buy that island so we could bury all our extra Air Raid carts there. :wink: Who says I haven't already buried mine there. -Bry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRedEye Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 There is more journalism in this thread alone than in every videogame magazine published this month. I'm really tempted to piece all this together and try to pitch an article to one of my editors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MayDay Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 Nukey: Um... So you are checking to see if the article is real?? I think that what some people are saying here is that sometimes articles are faked. In which case, it won't make any difference what you find. What I'm saying is a few things here. First, the article wasn't something thrown together on someone's computer, it's a real document. Secondly, the paper appears to have aged properly with what is standard for newspaper. Lastly, if it were a fake (which it's not) the guy posting it would have needed intimate knowledge of the newspaper business, and especially offset printing-something most newspapers no longer do. Combine that with all the research needed and there is no way this is just a troller/April fooler. Dolt: FWIW, it's common for a lot of small/local publications to have people who write and take photos. I do it all the time for the trade magazine I work for. -^Cro§Bow^-: In addtion Hawgwild who posts here, was both the article writer and photographer who covered my OKGE event last year for his local paper. So it is very common. I said it was odd, but not beyond belief. Being a DAILY newspaper, this would lead me to believe that it's not just a local paper with 2-3 people working to publish something once a week. The paper is owned by Gannett (name a newspaper person should recognize, and probably people outside of the industry as well) who generally doesn't purchase "small" newspapers. Even if they only have a staff of like 10, they should still have at least one full time photographer. People who write and shoot their own pictures generally also do things like layout and traffic and sales. I have to admit though, I didn't really take into account it being 1983 at the time, and to be honest don't really know how big it was or the state of the industry (specifically the ownership of the paper) at the time. Was only trying to add more information to the overall picture here. With that said, I just got off the phone with the publisher who confirmed to me that the story indeed ran on page 1 of the Sunday, Sept. 25 issue. He had offered to fax me the information (which I didn't have access to anyway) but told me that they no longer have any hard copies of it. I was told that the only way to get one was on microfiche from the Alamogordo Library. Their phone number is 505-439-4140. Since I didn't talk to them (the story is hereby confirmed in my opinion) I don't feel too bad giving out their information. He said they could probably mail a copy to anyone who wanted one. So, if a site administrator would still like his information, I have a name, phone, and e-mail address. The gentleman was very cool, and told me he was part of several internet forums himself. He also mentioned that the landfill closed 12 years ago (1993?) and a new one was opened elsewhere. I still encourage the rest of you NOT to call the newspaper itself. In the news biz, we're told to have 3 sources before airing something. 1. NY Times article 2. Alamogordo Daily News article 3. dude with too much free time and gas money who went Atari landfill hunting. I think that's good enough for Dan Rather! Anyway, congrats to spud for digging this up (nearly literally), and shame on those who said rotten things about him. A little effort before name-calling next time. -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artlover Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 Nukey:Um... So you are checking to see if the article is real?? I think that what some people are saying here is that sometimes articles are faked. In which case, it won't make any difference what you find. What I'm saying is a few things here. First, the article wasn't something thrown together on someone's computer, it's a real document. Secondly, the paper appears to have aged properly with what is standard for newspaper. Lastly, if it were a fake (which it's not) the guy posting it would have needed intimate knowledge of the newspaper business, and especially offset printing-something most newspapers no longer do. Combine that with all the research needed and there is no way this is just a troller/April fooler. I dont think it was being suggested that he made this up, and this is a fake article in the sense that he created it. Rather, newspapers and magazines and tv all have been known to not check facts, and run fake stories all the time. There is no doubt that this is a real article that appeared in a real newspaper. That doesn't automaticly prove that the content of the article is true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zonie Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 Sounds like we should give MYTHBUSTERS a call. They may have to use explosives to get to the bottom of the landfill, so since they get to blow shit up, they just might do it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Random Terrain Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 Sounds like we should give MYTHBUSTERS a call. They may have to use explosives to get to the bottom of the landfill, so since they get to blow shit up, they just might do it. They'll shoot a frozen chicken towards the general area and declare that it doesn't exist. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 Nukey:Um... So you are checking to see if the article is real?? I think that what some people are saying here is that sometimes articles are faked. In which case, it won't make any difference what you find. What I'm saying is a few things here. First, the article wasn't something thrown together on someone's computer, it's a real document. Secondly, the paper appears to have aged properly with what is standard for newspaper. Lastly, if it were a fake (which it's not) the guy posting it would have needed intimate knowledge of the newspaper business, and especially offset printing-something most newspapers no longer do. Combine that with all the research needed and there is no way this is just a troller/April fooler. I never implied that the newspaper articles are fake...I'll leave that accusation for the 4/1 fanatics. What I was saying is that even if you are holding an actual newspaper from the actual date that contains the actual story that was printed by them in your actual hands...it's still just an actual newspaper story And not everybody believes everything they read. Therefore, this would prove nothing that already hasn't been proven: i.e. that the story (or myth...depending on which way you believe) was covered by at least 2 different publications at the time...the NY Times article (which DOES exist - since they have it in their archives)...and some gaming magazine where I read about it back in the day (EG? I can't remember). People doubt the Moon landings too. In that sense, even if you held up a chunk of concrete with smashed-up ruins inside...there would still be no proof that you didn't just do it yourself. The only proof that would ever be enough is if you personally dragged some people to the landfill and armed them with a jackhammer...and were extremely lucky in finding the right spot to search. Since it wasn't doubtful enough for the auditors to put somebody in jail back then, that's proof enough for me. Atari was losing popularity very quickly in that period with investors...and if there was even a hint that Atari was fixing their books even to a small degree, somebody WOULD have ended up in prison. Then again, who's to say that Atari didn't have mob ties? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MayDay Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 Artlover: Rather, newspapers and magazines and tv all have been known to not check facts, and run fake stories all the time. There is no doubt that this is a real article that appeared in a real newspaper. That doesn't automaticly prove that the content of the article is true. Well, it's the daily news, not the Alamogordo Daily Enquirer. Offhand, I can think of about four instances in the last 10 years or so, all well documented. While it's true that something may have slipped through that wasn't true, what possible motivation could someone have had to fake an article of this nature? And what are the odds that two different newspapers owned by two different companies would have published the same information if it wasn't true? I can understand the arguement that the article was faked. If you acknowledge that it wasn't, then why question the validity of the information? Even if the accuracy wasn't perfect (ie- 7 trucks instead of then it would have still happened. While I don't take in everything from the media as gospel, I think it's safe to say the newspaper didn't fabricate this story. There's less evidence available to people that Jose Canseco took steroids, and it's pretty widely accepted. You have... 3-4 newspaper articles, from 2 different newspapers, complete with pictures, numbers, quotes. There is more if you care to track down those other two sources. You have no denial from Atari. This guy/gal (and no, I'm not sure Marian is a dude, btw) obviously cared enough about their journalism career to continue it later at another publication... why would they endanger that by making stuff up that could be easily checked out? Wouldn't co-workers of McQuiddy know something wasn't up to par? Wouldn't the townspeople and people quoted in the articles complain? It's hard to say what is/was out there, but I think it's safe to say they dumped something in the way of games/consoles there! I'm sorry... at this point that's a weak and unfounded arguement. It reminds me of the time my Grandpa told me two different atlases were both wrong. Either that, or it must have been the Mexicans trying to cover their tracks for all the bootlegs they were planning to make. -JD [/b] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MayDay Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 lol... 3 replies in the time it took me to type mine! nukey shay: What I was saying is that even if you are holding an actual newspaper from the actual date that contains the actual story that was printed by them in your actual hands...it's still just an actual newspaper story icon_wink.gif This is true, but I think he/they are attacking the integrity of the reporter, not suggesting that it was massive conspiracy by Atari/Nintendo/the mafia. However since the other arguement holds little logic, maybe this explanation is just as likely and what he was implying. nukey shay: People doubt the Moon landings too. I'm among them. Unlike this story, not everything (specifically the lighting of pictures) checks out. There's a specific link that I'll post in the general forum (probably the best place for a topic as such?) if I can find it. It's the one that had the Apollo 17 pictures which are...suspect at best. nukey shay: In that sense, even if you held up a chunk of concrete with smashed-up ruins inside...there would still be no proof that you didn't just do it yourself. Using this logic, how do we know World War 1 and 2 happened? All the video, artifacts, etc. could be faked by millions of elderly people who just want to be recognized as the greatest generation. The sad thing though, is that you're right, there will always be doubters no matter how apparent the evidence. Even if Atari wrote a press release stating as such, people would say they were coerced or trying to add to their mystique. Psychologists study this phenomenon, don't recall the exact name, but basically people make an initial decision on a topic, and instead of admitting they are wrong will continue to make more and more far-fetched claims to try and back up their position. Something that dates back to the "smash a rock over the head of the alpha male so we can pass on our genetic information" days I'm sure. nukey shay: Then again, who's to say that Atari didn't have mob ties? icon_lol.gif lol... that's the funniest thing I've read all night. Not quite as good as http://www.atariage.com/forums/viewtopic.p...2372&highlight= but I still got a pretty good chuckle out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nudicle Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 MayDay says what I was trying to say, but he says it a lot better. My new question is this, and it arises from my own ignorance for which I preemptively apologize : how did this become a controversy in the first place? I realize the nytimes story is unsourced, and I realize that journalists don't always check facts (I realize this really really well from personal experience), but who started the "that story is bogus" idea? I ask just because I wonder if this idea was kindled by some random guy on Usenet 15 years ago arguing by eloquent and forceful language alone, rather than some credible reason to believe him, or if someone in a position to know the story was bogus asserted such. This just seems a relevant question to me because a) as I shamefully admit, I am ignorant of the provenance of this idea; and b) tracing the origins of the "that never happened" idea seems probative of the relative merits of that position. If it turns out the idea that the dumping never happened was first advanced by someone with actual knowledge of this stuff, then perhaps we should look into that angle. If not, then I don't see how that angle is more than the assertion of a specious claim which has gained steam over time by the simple force of its own existence. In the former case there is more to look into. In the latter, in the absence of evidence to believe the journalists were negligent, I don't see why there is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+batari Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 if someone in a position to know the story was bogus asserted such. That's part of it, I believe. Howard Scott Warshaw himself publicly denounced the story as hogwash some time ago, and his message can be found here,about halfway down the page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nudicle Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 I'm actually familiar with HSW's opinion. Looking into this, I found it here. As for his comment, I obviously have no real data. However : 1) Do you have any idea how expensive it is to bury millions of carts in the desert? No, I don't. But we're talking about a dump, not the middle of a parched desert a billion miles from nowhere. Look at the budget for nuclear waste sites and draw the parallels. This is a fatuous comparison. Nuclear waste sites are federally regulated and mega-expensive due to the requirements attendant on not leaking radioactive material. This is a lot different from dumping carts somewhere. I had many friends all over Atari, if the company was burying all these carts someone would have told me. This may be a very telling point, I just don't know. I have worked at smallish companies where I was an important coder, however, and although I've had friends all over those companies' ranks I still haven't known everything going on. (Which isn't to say therefore HSW wouldn't have known either -- I am just saying I completely lack the information to verify or dispute this claim except to say I don't think it's necessarily strong on its own) If Atari decided to dump carts it would have calculated the cost of the warehouse space devoted to storing carts which were no longer selling (both the cost of the space itself and the cost of the space lost for not temporarily storing other games there which would move into the market in a timely manner). This would have been a calculation different from nuclear storage, a calculation different from dumping the carts "in the desert" (assuming "the desert" entails in HSW's post some barren wasteland which is massively costly to get to, and if it doesn't my point is stronger anyway), and ultimately a calculation weighing the costs of storing games few people wanted to buy any more rather than opening the space for games with a potential better future. As I said, I don't mean to suggest I know the answer to this calculation, only that HSW's justifications are unconvincing in themselves. Also, I don't mean to sound like an apologist for the "it happened, damnit!" group, I am just looking for a good reason the dumping itself has been in dispute. Discarding the silly nuclear waste comparison et al., "because HSW didn't hear about it" doesn't, to me, weigh very much. But, that's just me -- I'm not trying to assert that my opinion is Correct and people who dispute it are wrong ... I'm just looking for all the evidence and giving my own uneducated opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 Good job here. Now I am convinced the story is true. So, what's next? Is there a chance to find the exact spot? And to dig out some remains? Any plans made yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+batari Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 I had many friends all over Atari, if the company was burying all these carts someone would have told me. This may be a very telling point, I just don't know. I think this is the most compelling statement that HSW made about it. However, I believe that these articles, if real, are even more compelling. I can come to terms with HSW's statements by considering that the carts came from a distribution center/warehouse in Texas, and the Atari HQ is in Silicon Valley (right?) I can believe that individual departments within a large company, especially those so spacially separated, don't necessarily talk to one another all the time, especially if those at the warehouse considered dumping unsellable carts to be inconsequential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The MilkMan Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 Who would have ever thought the day where Atari enthusiast and the profession of Archeology would meet!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveD Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 Nice avatar, That80sGuy. Nice to see my stuff put to good use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That80sGuy Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 I should have figured a classic game enthusiast like yourself would eventually find this place. So I guess its ok if I keep using it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferris Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 Hey - Was working on some other "x-files related" desktop wallpapers and thought I'd make one more to share with the community. Hope you guys like this! Justin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveD Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 So I guess its ok if I keep using it? Absolutely! As long as nobody tries making $ off of my stuff I don't care how they use it and I truly consider it a compliment when it pops up in places like this. Thanks and enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
else Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 Sounds like we should give MYTHBUSTERS a call. I don't know if you were joking or not -- but that sounds like an excellent idea! They would have the time and money to get to the bottom of this. Who knows -- they might be up for it!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawgWyld Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 In addtion Hawgwild who posts here, was both the article writer and photographer who covered my OKGE event last year for his local paper. So it is very common. Hey, hey, hey! Leave ol' Hawgie out of this particular spat By the way, looking forward to the convention in June. I'll have a smaller camera this year (thanks be to God). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nathan Strum Posted March 25, 2005 Share Posted March 25, 2005 Sounds like we should give MYTHBUSTERS a call. I don't know if you were joking or not -- but that sounds like an excellent idea! They would have the time and money to get to the bottom of this. Who knows -- they might be up for it!!! They do take suggestions off of their website. I did a quick search through topics over there for Atari and didn't see anything (although the operative word is "quick"). Linking to the newspaper articles and various landfill threads would be important, so there would be some meat to the story. This sounds like something wacky enough for them to do. Science? Hardly. But it would give them an oportunity to do some digging with heavy machinery. Seems to me that should be incentive enough. The show is more about blowing stuff up and building gizmos than definitively proving or disproving stuff. (Random Terrain's "frozen chicken" comment was great!) But I enjoy the show on an entertainment level. I loved it when they nuked the cement truck. Besides, Kari is cute. Yowza. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.