VGXPO : November 12/13 : Fort Washington, PA

[joesmooth]

I posted the following message on October 21 in the "Special Guests At VGXPO" thread, but thought it makes more sense here...

Seeing how this show has not even been mentioned as part of the "Con$umerfest" on NBC's site (http://www.nbc10.com/consumerexpo/index.html), the apparent lack of promotion, and the dismal responses to the Dallas and DC show, I had decided that it just wasn't worth the risk to go out there, bring a box full of classic gaming stuff, and waste time and money on [a new and unbranded] event. However, it's going to cost me over $250 to cancel the trip and change my other flight arrangements, which is basically as much as my hotel will be, so I'll still be (grudgingly) going to the show.

 

I certainly don't get the warm, fuzzy feeling that I had with previous real PhillyClassic events, and it's not a surprise - none of the original people involved (David, Mark, etc.) are involved anymore, and it's apparent that the VGXPO portion of the show is being handled unprofessionally.

 

With that said, I'm still hoping if nothing else, the show will be a good place to see old friends, hang out, and maybe trade a few games with the few diehards who still decide to go. I have a bunch of rare Coleco titles and other random classic collectibles that I plan to bring with me, so feel free to PM me for a list if you want to try and set something up beforehand.

Joe

[ed_fleming]

And now a question to Ed Flemming:

 

How much of the Exhibiter list is now fictional. It's true that Curt and the Atari Museum are still listed but are not attending. And now Videotopia is questionable and is still listed. How many names are still listed that shouldn't be and how long has it been that they should have been removed? Long before some people bought nonrefundable plane tickets?

953156[/snapback]

 

 

The webmaster hasn't had the oppertunity to remove Curt's museum or company form the vendor list yet - Curt pulled out just in the past week. In addition, I am just learning tonight that Trade n Games isn't coming - but I haven't confirmed that with the owners yet. However, we have a few more vendors that need to be added to the list, including Game Crazy, Collectors Cards and Games, EB Games, and Smitty.

 

Last Videotopia IS planning on being at the expo and is bringing 50 games to the event, along with some signage. For the record, they might also be doing the videogames live event, but they were not sure if they would be.

 

We've reserved 30,000 sq feet of the convention center for the VGXPO - Philly, thats about two times the space of PhillyClassic 5 and 5 times the space of VGXPO - Dallas. I have additional space that I could use, but I am not expecting to use more at this time.

[rolenta]

We've reserved 30,000 sq feet of the convention center for the VGXPO - Philly, thats about two times the space of PhillyClassic 5 and 5 times the space of VGXPO - Dallas. I have additional space that I could use, but I am not expecting to use more at this time.

 

None of my business, Ed but maybe you could you do some damage control. Since you have all of this space sitting there, why not offer Curt exhibit space for free. Since he's not making any money on this and his exhibit is a draw, maybe it would be more worth your's and his while to do this.

[Mark Wolfe]

That rings true for me also, I am not only a classing gaming collector, but also a gadget freak. I shudder at the thought of thousands of housewife's with screaming children attending this new event. 

I totally agree with that and I couldn't find Enough Excedrin Migraine for that headache or enough alcohol to dull the pain of the Housewives w/ kids and probably most of the kids being spoiled and obnoxious.

 

Keep them away from my video game systems!

*nightmares of Ice Cream and Chocolate fingerprints on our Treamcast or Nomads and soda spills or worse baby formula and throw-up*

 

The name "Tech Expo" conjures up thoughts of new toys to play with and current as well as futuristic designs at least and that = fun and exploring! (and probably wasting a lot of $$$ )

953184[/snapback]

 

 

I totally HEAR your point and understand where you're coming from and why... and, I am in no way defending what is going on behind the scenes at vgXpo... however, I must play the other side of the coin here and point out that in any public venue in any circumstance, there is always the risk of spills and fingerprints and the like - museum anyone? hello? if they can do it so can a classic game show, case closed.. I can only hold up PC5 as a litmus test for how people in large numbers behave, be they classic gamer, casual gamer or wood nymph and how organizers have to be cognizant of exactly what is required to facilitate a crowd at whatever kind of show they are promoting.

 

people are sloppy. people are rude and pushy. people, for the most part, suck big time and they have no clue how to behave in public.

 

lets face it. classic gamers are NOT known for their delicate and tidy eating habits nor are they particularly known for their consummate social skills.

 

I fully believe classic games and classic game culture have a place out amongst the masses.

 

At one time earlier this year i believed vgXop was a vehicle by which classic games could be served up to said masses. [needless to say I no longer feel that way]

 

Virtually ALL of the points made by you and others hit the mark right on the head as to how show organizers [any show really] should conduct and align themselves. That is really at the heart of what is going on here.

[Brad2600]

I am truly disappointed here. So much for wanting to meet folks from here.

[ed_fleming]

We've reserved 30,000 sq feet of the convention center for the VGXPO - Philly, thats about two times the space of PhillyClassic 5 and 5 times the space of VGXPO - Dallas. I have additional space that I could use, but I am not expecting to use more at this time.

 

None of my business, Ed but maybe you could you do some damage control. Since you have all of this space sitting there, why not offer Curt exhibit space for free. Since he's not making any money on this and his exhibit is a draw, maybe it would be more worth your's and his while to do this.

953204[/snapback]

 

 

The truth is, Curt had free space in Dallas. And the charge for his space in Philly was discounted. All of the vendors that attended Dallas and DC have been offered an additional, free table, in Philly.

 

On the topic of the shows economics and future:

 

The charge for a standard 10x10 booth is $650. The charge for a premium vendor space, like for EB Games is $1000. The difference includes more perks, and is targeted at companies that are larger in size. For non-profits, the cost of a table is $100 and booths are also discounted.

 

Think about the economics of this show. The costs for doing business are large. To rent a 15,000 sq ft convention center for 3 days is nearly $15,000. Now the relationship that we have with NBC provides us with a larger space and negates some of those costs. But there are still many costs involved with the show. For our first year out we were asked by NBC not to charge a gate fee. Because of the loss of that income we increased the costs of tables. These costs are roughly the same costs that vendors pay to participate in shows like CGE, comic book conventions and sci-fi/star trek conventions.

 

 

We decided after Dallas and DC to give the PhillyClassic name back to David Neuman. I am still waiting to get the agreement back from Dave, but in effect PC's name is back in his hands.

 

The reason that we gave it back to him was that to many people had expectations regarding the direction of PC and we couldn't meet those expectations. My vision for a game show is different, than what PhillyClassic was. In truth, I thought that the transitioning from PhillyClassic to America's VideoGame Expo would have been smoother. The brief time that the two shows shared history showed me that many folks wanted PhillyClassic to remain the same, continue to grow but not by leaps and bounds and focus on classic games.

 

Unfortunately, focusing on classic games exclusively cannot sustain a business model. At best it can be run as hobbyist show, but there isn't much of a financial return. Look closely at CGE or PhillyClassic and you see that the costs for running these shows is significant, and their returns are not.

 

The idea for VGXPO grew out of the direction that David Neuman had planned. He developed a show called GameJam. GameJam would have been a videogame show that would have been a combination PhillyClassic and Digital Life/CES. But, GameJam got mixed reviews from people close to PhillyClassic and Dave decided not to pursue it. In regard to PC5 that show almost didn’t happen. Luckily, Mark Wolfe convinced him to run a show, and PC5 happened, but it didn’t make much money.

 

After PC5 David called me and asked if I would like to run a game show. He and I negotiated a contract and PhillyClassic came under my wings. The goal was to make a business venture, not something that was hobby driven. My vision was to give the show legs, let it travel across the US, and include everything gaming: classic/retro, new, PC, online. We have started down this path and its future looks bright.

 

In December last year, NBC contacted me about doing a partnership where we would provide game expos as part of their touring event schedule. The deal seemed too good to be true, and in some respects, it is. The plan was for VGXPO to revitalize its technology shows, those shows had dipping attendance and games had proved to bring many people into the show. How could I resist? In late winter, NBC and my company signed an agreement.

 

Just prior to E3, NBC informed us that they would be changing the names for some of the events. In the past years they watched the technology expo attendance grow and then dip. While VGXPO was poised to help increase attendance, the NBC management made the decision to change the shows. Technology would still be part of the events, but other areas of interest would also be added. Hence, the Philly shows name was changed four times this year: Tech Fest, Technology and Life Styles Expo, Consumer Fest, Consumer Expo.

 

As we learned of the NBC changes all of our marketing was updated. I am a bit surprised that there are folks that didn’t realize this, as all of our promotions always-made mention of the partnership. In our first press release (and the launch of the VGXPO website), in late spring 2005, we stated that we would be running the Philly VGXPO with NBC10’s Consumer Expo.

 

With the focus of the NBC show being consumer driven, will all of the attendees be gamers? No, but many will. Think about the current state of the industry, everyone is playing. If we really want to transition retro gaming into a collector’s hobby we need to grow our base. Videogame collecting is like comic book, baseball card and collectors card hobbies where 25 years ago. They started small in scale, but grew into HUGE industries.

 

Look at shows like Wizard World and Comicon. These events have 30,000 to 50,000 attendees buying items in their market places and seeing new product in the premiere exhibitor space. We want to do the same thing with videogames, if we can stand on NBC's shoulders to do that, so be it.

 

Where do we go from here? We are evaluating many options. Will we work with NBC in the future? That depends. But no matter, VGXPO is about all gamers. If you like retro games or new games, both are there. From a vendor perspective it is wise to sell to your installed base, but it also wise to grow your markets – events like VGXPO bring you both opportunities. If you feel that consumer game shows should not include booth then there is nothing I can do to convince you otherwise, but if you want a large event that features the best of all gaming then VGXPO is for you.

 

I hope to see you at the show,

 

Ed

edfleming@vgxpo.com

Edited October 24, 2005 by ed_fleming

[Brad2600]

Most classic gaming enthusiasts weren't even in it for the money. If they were, they'd be flocking in droves to the other show.

Edited October 24, 2005 by Kepone

[Centallica]

Holly Crap! Didn't mean to start a shit-fest here

 

These are the things that I think would help draw some of us collectors to the show:

 

Atari Museum being there

 

Atari Age being there

 

Videotopia's 50 coin-ops (more the better)

 

And what about show hotel discounts (I know for Allentown Pinball convention we got one and a whack of people stayed there too).

[ed_fleming]

Most classic gaming enthusiasts weren't even in it for the money. If they were, they'd be flocking in droves to the other show.

953272[/snapback]

 

 

I think you're right about the game collector. But there is an oppertunity for game collectors to build value into thier collection, like Comic Book, action figure and Baseball card collectors have. They love thier collections and they also enjoy the base of participants growing as it ads value to thier collection. Magazines like Video Game Collector are banking on this hobby growing into the mainstream market.

 

I think most of the vendors are out there looking to make a few dollars. Many of these guys do this because they are enthusiasts and want to grow their own collections, but lots of them are also doing this to supliment their income, or even as full time jobs.

[ed_fleming]

Atari Museum being there

 

Atari Age being there

 

Videotopia's 50 coin-ops (more the better)

 

953279[/snapback]

 

Atari Museum:

His exhibit is really great. However, I don't think Curt is going to change his mind. But if he does, we'll welcome with open arms.

 

Atari Age:

As far as I know, Al is still planning to attend. I haven't heard any thing differnet. He has a 20x30 booth at the Philly expo.

 

Videotopia:

They will be at the expo with lots of games!

 

Hotel Info:

It looks like the Best Westren is sold out. Most folks are staying at the Holiday Inn. There is a great bar on the first level and I imagine most folks will be in there on Friday and Saturday nights. The web site address is http://www.fwholiday.com/

[Curt Vendel]

Okay, lets make sure things are set perfectly straight here Ed, you wanted BIG NAMES to help further strengthen and build VGXpo, you wanted Atari to be a sponsor, they said No, you even asked me again who to contact at Atari to send a sponsor bill to you and I again told you Atari would not sponsor a new show with no track record and that I would fly out personally and setup an area and respresent Atari at no risk to them and at cost to me as a favor to you to help you build up your show so that Philly would be a bigger and better show. Without going into the lenghty details of the lack of coordination, vendor follow up, screw ups in miscommunication, lack of cohesive management of events and workshops, not having arcades at both shows, the website being down more then up and being a navigational nightmare... bottom line, Dallas and DC did NOTHING to help Philly, so I digress....

 

So you got big Atari banners and signs at your show (which you still haven't returned).

 

As for me, I had $600 in airfare & hotel costs, $120 in TV rental costs, $1,200 in freight costs for the 100 Flashback 2's to be brought to your show, I'm out of pocket roughly $2,000 so it was hardly FREE Ed !

 

Yes, you gave me an offer of discounted space for Philly, I'll still have truck rental, hotel costs and fuel costs, so that'll be another $500 give or take out of my pocket, for what? 10-20 hardcore videogamers who will appreciate prototype artifacts, hardware, demo's and then droves of people who'll walk by and wonder why there is all this "junk" out on tables, why people are selling "junk" and used stuff and dusty old systems is beat up boxes (because that is going to be the casual gamer/attendee point of view)

 

So if you're gonna post the Truth Ed, make sure you post the whole truth, so the space wasn't free, I put Atari's name into your Dallas and DC shows which you were supposed to captilize (but didn't) on helping build up the Philly show.

 

Well, I've had enough of this thread and this topic, anymore half-assed excuses and BS and I'm really gonna let loose!

 

Curt

 

 

 

The truth is, Curt had free space in Dallas. And the charge for his space in Philly was discounted. All of the vendors that attended Dallas and DC have been offered an additional, free table, in Philly.

[ed_fleming]

Curt,

 

It doesn't seem like there is anything that I can say or do that would make this situation beter. Can I ask that in the future, if you have an issue that you give me a call, or email me. So that we can talk about this stuff one-on-one. Every time you communicate with me its either on Forums or CCed to 20 other people. I could only imagine that it would be easier to talk if we didn't have to include so many other people.

 

Please give me a call,

 

Ed

[mstulir]

And as recently as a week ago Mike Stulir was interested in talking to Bill Kunkel even though he wasn't part of the show. I gave him my blessings to do so and never heard from him again. Like I said, there is a lot that I'm not privy to.

953149[/snapback]

 

Hi Lenny:

 

I just want to make sure we have the right information going on here. In the thread where you announce that Ralph would be attending vgXpo, I made a reply about it. One part of the message read as follows:

 

If do any webcasting, it would be offsite from the show. I will not be doing any panels or webcasting from the vgXpo floor. I am not an "official" part of this event amymore. The new vgXpo staff has done NOTHING to attract special guests as they have been too busy worrying about comic books, action figures, bemani, cosplay, and other inconsequential SHIT that has nothing to do with the classic gaming roots/legacy/tradition of PhillyClassic.

 

That was on October 12th -- 11 days ago. That was a little over one week from the time I had decided not to attend the show. I did say that if I would be requesting to do any interviews with Bill or Ralph, I would want to do it offsite.

 

Later in that same message...

 

Up until a week ago, I wasn't even planning on attending...even though I live in Philly. I was completely disgusted when I saw the reports/reviews from Dallas & D.C. and I had more or less "walked away" from the whole mess. After I had given up on the show, Curt asked me to give him a hand with his Atari Museum exhibit and a Legacy Engineering Group display. Since I am deep into a number of projects for Curt/Legacy Engineering, I agreed to help him for the Philly event.

 

The reason you haven't heard from me further is that Curt will not be attending the show, and since the only reason I had agreed to attend was to help Curt with showing the Atari projects we are working on, there was no other reason for me to show up.

 

I hope these trips for Ralph and Bill aren't wasted, but I suspect they will be.

 

Regards,

 

Mike Stulir

[Chickybaby]

The charge for a standard 10x10 booth is $650. The charge for a premium vendor space, like for EB Games is $1000. The difference includes more perks, and is targeted at companies that are larger in size. For non-profits, the cost of a table is $100 and booths are also discounted.

 

So basically just an average person who wanted to sell duplicate games would fall under what category? It sure wouldn't be "non-profit" would it since we still would be making money off the games even if we had paid more originally?

 

Anyway I am just sorry to see so many good people/vendors, especially Curt having arguments in this thread and it's past time for me to go to bed and stop looking in here before my indigestion gets worse.

[Xot]

Most classic gaming enthusiasts weren't even in it for the money. If they were, they'd be flocking in droves to the other show.

953272[/snapback]

 

 

I think you're right about the game collector. But there is an oppertunity for game collectors to build value into thier collection, like Comic Book, action figure and Baseball card collectors have. They love thier collections and they also enjoy the base of participants growing as it ads value to thier collection. Magazines like Video Game Collector are banking on this hobby growing into the mainstream market.

 

I think most of the vendors are out there looking to make a few dollars. Many of these guys do this because they are enthusiasts and want to grow their own collections, but lots of them are also doing this to supliment their income, or even as full time jobs.

953289[/snapback]

 

This has been a huge debate for years - whether or not we want this hobby to become mainstream. My thought, and the thoughts of many others, is that comic book and baseball card collecting was ruined by over-commercialization. Heck, there was recently a thread about grading games like cards and comics, and opinion was overwhelmingly in favor of NOT having it done.

 

But I suppose that's really neither here nor there.

[Trade-N-Games]

Trade-N-Games is not going to the show.

 

Now I have a few reasons but the main one is simple and I hope people that I know and would hope to see in person understand.

 

Its about making money since this is my life. I dont like to give away games without a return on my investment. I can't risk it again with this show I have barley made it threw the Dallas shows setback. Times are tight.

 

It cost me lots of money to attend as a vender. Dallas cost me almost $2000 since I had empleyees due to how many people were going to attend "but didnt"

Lots of gas, food,hotel and more. Now it was very easy to sell $1700 in stuff at the show but it was my best stuff I had and the 3-4 people who bought from me are happy but really I just gave away my best stuff that I would have no problem selling on my site or Ebay. Hell I sold almost $3000 in stuff at the Oklahoma show in 1 day.

 

Second reason -vendor follow up---- NONE! NOt a single call, Email, PM or nothing! Yes at the Dallas show I was told I could get 1 free table in Philly but thats not enough. People at the show who are coming for Video games is what I want. I brought alot to the show and all my thousands of games to be one of the big venders in hopes to draw a crowd but barley anyone who attended even new games were for sale. I had a few people come up and ask if the items were on display or for sale? Then I said for sale and they were wow how much is that PS1 with 2 controllers and a memory card I said show special $19.95 and the few people who asked said they did not bring money since they did not know anything was going to be for sale! NOw how bad does that suck!

 

Its so hard for me not to bash the show since I know Ed wants it to be a good show. He is not able to or is just "riding the coat tales" hoping it will be a good show but the risk is to big for me. There should be a buzz in the community but there is not like last year. I hope the venders that are coming do good. I would not wish what happened to me to happen to them since I know most of them very well.

Jason

[Smitty]

Uh....Oh....

 

I guess I'm also going to have to pull out.

 

Man this is very disappointing. I’ve spent the last month pricing games.

 

I was a vendor at the Austin show and did quite well (It was a great show). I had tons of rare stuff and wanted to help other collectors out. I sold most of my spare stuff at way below DPG and VGB prices.

 

What I don't understand is why the tables are so much? If a coin, comic, or card show can survive why can't a video game show? Free attendance believe it or not hurts the vendors, especially vendors that are selling games that are $1 to $5 each. The tables at the Austin show were only $25 and the entry fee was a mere $3. I know most collectors are willing to pay $10+ to get into a decent show.

 

Oh yeah….I’m one of the vendors that lost their asses at the Dallas show (and I live in San Antonio). I dropped $324 on two tables and $426 on gas, a room, and food. I was planning on going to the Philly show, but $2000 for expenses is way out of my league. How many games can you post and sell on E-Bay for $2000? (just kidding I wouldn’t do that.)

 

I say we have another classic gaming show in Austin or San Antonio. We should have it at an older hotel / convention center to keep the prices reasonable. I believe that we have enough people in Austin, San Antonio and Dallas to make it happen.

 

What do you say Alex, you in?

[Chickybaby]

Just saw commercials today for the "Consumer Expo" on Channel 10 w/ hubby. The only thing they said was that Professionals from finance and other consumer feilds/areas(or something like that) would be at the show to help with questions, all you need to know about finances etc and that their Giant Paper Shredder would be there. There was absolutely nothing on a selling "Marketplace Area" or video games even in backround pictures of games and the commercial played several times today that I saw.

[StanJr]

I feared this would happen. I'm out. No way in hell would I attend something this ridiculous. Philly Classic was the show. Great people, friendly atmosphere, all about the classic gaming, but not forgetting the new stuff. Had that "swap meet" feel. You knew almost everyone by the end of the show, all around a great great time. I have no idea what this new thing is, but like that capitalist cat said "It ain't Philly Classic." And if that's the case, I have no business there. See you all in Cincinnati when that gets up and running.

[mstulir]

Second reason -vendor follow up---- NONE! NOt a single call, Email, PM or nothing!

Jason, you just hit the nail on the head. Communications have been atrocious. David Newman and Mark Wolfe would NEVER allowed that to happen. I think most everyone who was a vendor at PhillyClassic would agree that David went out of his way to communicate with the exhibitors before, during, and after the show.

 

I personally have experienced the absolute silence from Ed, etc., so I can appreciate where you are coming from.

 

Its so hard for me not to bash the show since I know Ed wants it to be a good show.

Ed can want it to be a good show all that he wants, but if he and his crew aren't coming close to getting the job done, he shouldn't be suprised at all of the hostility and disappointment. I told him in a conference call back in the spring (Mark Wolfe & Curt Vendel were present and can back me up) that he could not abandon the existing base of PhillyClassic vendors and attendees in order to do what he wanted to do. Well, look at things now. Somehow, saying "I told you so" just isn't enough to describe how bad it has gotten.

[maibock]

Just saw commercials today for the "Consumer Expo" on Channel 10 w/ hubby. The only thing they said was that Professionals from finance and other consumer feilds/areas(or something like that) would be at the show to help with questions, all you need to know about finances etc and that their Giant Paper Shredder would be there. There was absolutely nothing on a selling "Marketplace Area" or video games even in backround pictures of games and the commercial played several times today that I saw.

953825[/snapback]

 

wow - I haven't heard a thing about the show from anywhere but here. You'd think I'd be the target demographic group no matter how you look at it.

 

Classic gamer - Modern gamer - Home owner - Family guy

 

My wife, who is a "stay at home mom" hasn't heard about it and she watches NBC!

 

If there's one thing our family knows how to do is consume, and apparently this show isn't geared towards us?

 

Maybe they'll ramp up the marketing as the time approache.. who knows..

[Duke 4ever]

oh shit. Man, this sucks. I hope they say something before I end up going there looking but not finding the booths.

Edited October 25, 2005 by Duke 4ever

[Centallica]

I told my boss today that I've cancelled my trip to the show and I'll be working instead on the 11th (when I would of have been making the 8 hour drive down there).

 

Looking forward to the follow-up after the show on the boards,

Brian

[AtariAger]

So...Who will be there for sure? I confirmed that the Atari2600.com booth will be there. I'd like to know so I can make it around to all displays.

 

[K3V]

So...Who will be there for sure?  I confirmed that the Atari2600.com booth will be there.  I'd like to know so I can make it around to all displays.

 

 

954331[/snapback]

 

I'll be there (NUON-Dome as listed on the Exhibitor page on vgXpo) with a table displaying 3 new Jaguar games (Gorf Classic, Mad Bodies and Mighty Frog) and two new NUON games (Invs and Katapila).

 

I plan on having a good time with the guys I'm going with regardless of who else shows up

 

I also know that Chris Chandler is still bringing a bunch of stuff to sell, he had a big setup with good stuff last year so I'm sure he'll bring some good loot again this year.

Edited October 26, 2005 by K3V