emkay Posted March 6, 2006 Author Share Posted March 6, 2006 You like Blues/Rock? Then have a listen to this: Well the original mod is a bit to hard on the AMIGA. For the available RMT features, I think it is very well done by the POKEY ... 1028111[/snapback] For those without a real machine: http://www.fandal.cz/chuck.mp3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 10, 2006 Author Share Posted March 10, 2006 This one is very timing sensitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunsen Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 hi emkay, I put your converted tunes on one disk to have easier access on the real machine. Great work. emkay.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 10, 2006 Author Share Posted March 10, 2006 hi emkay, I put your converted tunes on one disk to have easier access on the real machine. Great work. 1031389[/snapback] Thanks And here a MP3 of the dragon tune: http://www.fandal.cz/dragon.mp3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybernoid Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 hi emkay, I put your converted tunes on one disk to have easier access on the real machine. Great work. 1031389[/snapback] Thanks And here a MP3 of the dragon tune: http://www.fandal.cz/dragon.mp3 1031485[/snapback] Fantastic! I love this one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 10, 2006 Author Share Posted March 10, 2006 http://www.fandal.cz/dragon.mp3 1031485[/snapback] Fantastic! I love this one! 1031499[/snapback] Nice to read Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twh/f2 Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 http://www.fandal.cz/dragon.mp3 1031485[/snapback] Fantastic! I love this one! 1031499[/snapback] Nice to read 1031516[/snapback] This tune is the first from your collection I enjoy listening. I hope you soon get out of your "phase of experiments" Looking forward to listen more nice emkay-tunes like this one we've got here. ich sag nur: bitte keine schiefen töne mehr. bei manchen deiner songs reagieren meine Magenwände sehr sensibel :-) \twh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 hi emkay, I put your converted tunes on one disk to have easier access on the real machine. Great work. 1031389[/snapback] Thanks And here a MP3 of the dragon tune: http://www.fandal.cz/dragon.mp3 1031485[/snapback] Excellent piece of work!!! I will definitely be demoing this tune at the CCAG show in May. Stephen Anderson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 11, 2006 Author Share Posted March 11, 2006 Well... It is very interesting to me that people like the last conversion. OK.. the tune itself has a nice mood. And, the pokey sounds are somehow better since I found the better way for programming the filter timing. Putting the taste of music outside, I wonder, why there is not that positive feedback on "Bubble Bobble" and "Chuck Rock" and others... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drac030 Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Putting the taste of music outside, I wonder, why there is not that positive feedback on "Bubble Bobble" and "Chuck Rock" and others... Since you asked. Yesterday I listened to the "Chuck Rock" (both versions, exe and mp3) and so I can guess the answer: this one is horribly out of the tune most of the time. For the rest of them, I didn't try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 11, 2006 Author Share Posted March 11, 2006 (edited) Yesterday I listened to the "Chuck Rock" (both versions, exe and mp3) and so I can guess the answer: this one is horribly out of the tune most of the time. 1031823[/snapback] Then the original AMIGA MOD is totally out of tune aswell. You may check this version: http://atari.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=5182 Some volume updates and small corrections on the percussion. Edited March 11, 2006 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drac030 Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Then the original AMIGA MOD is totally out of tune aswell. Not so badly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 11, 2006 Author Share Posted March 11, 2006 Then the original AMIGA MOD is totally out of tune aswell. Not so badly. 1031827[/snapback] well, I always gave the possibility to "A8 musicians" to help me adjusting the tune "in tune" . I explained the pokey problems and I wrote all about solving the problem. With some exeptions nothing happens... people still say "it's out of tune" ... without showing what is "in tune" for them. Particular the "Chuck Rock" tune is to me a real peace of music played by pokey with the known software limitations, as it has the same "blues" as the amiga original has. The tune that is available on Fandal's site, I adjusted a bit, after recognizing the volume differences and adding some pokey correction. Another example: The Dragon (originally Demon's Revenge) has some nice FX, that are not played the same on the real pokey, because of the known timing issues. The real pokey needs a slightlly different filter timing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drac030 Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 well, I always gave the possibility to "A8 musicians" to help me adjusting the tune "in tune" . I explained the pokey problems and I wrote all about solving the problem. With some exeptions nothing happens... people still say "it's out of tune" ... without showing what is "in tune" for them. Well, this is a question of the ear. Some people have an ear for music, while others do not. If someone is tone-deaf, the question what is out of the tune and what is not, is not explainable to him. At least, I can't imagine a way to explain. This is like explaining what is a color to someone who is blind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 11, 2006 Author Share Posted March 11, 2006 well, I always gave the possibility to "A8 musicians" to help me adjusting the tune "in tune" . I explained the pokey problems and I wrote all about solving the problem. With some exeptions nothing happens... people still say "it's out of tune" ... without showing what is "in tune" for them. Well, this is a question of the ear. Some people have an ear for music, while others do not. If someone is tone-deaf, the question what is out of the tune and what is not, is not explainable to him. At least, I can't imagine a way to explain. This is like explaining what is a color to someone who is blind. 1031837[/snapback] When it comes to chipmusic, it is only a question of taste. Example: Hearing non-professional people singing, I always come to the same conclusion, if he/she is "out of tune" as a professional musician has (did a test once ago) In theory it is the proof that I have an ear for "in tune or not". (that's exactly the cause why I think, almost every A8 music is out of tune, because it is played 2-3 octaves too high... ) Saying: I'm no musician means that I'm not able to write complex songs and I have to use pre-defined mod-files to create examples.... using hardware with known issues and pre-defined software .... Well, Chipmusic is a question of taste. SID, known as the best soundchip of it's days made it the easiest, to like the music a-typic sound. Which means, it sounds like music, but it is always a bit off (which makes it interesting at least). The worst music chip of it's days is the YM-2149... (to me at least). The basic sound of it is horrible and made me sell the ST way back in th 80's, buying an AMIGA. If you accept the sound of the YM chip, you recognize very good compositions by MAD MAX and TAO and you can have fun with it. Well, you can even put the ST on a stereo and the depth of music is recognizable. Exept the 8... most music is simply "flat" and too high in the full notation. DIGI-Drums helped in the past to enhance the depth of the tunes. Particular the hardsynth projects wants to show that "flat" sound isn't a problem of the pokey itself. And, especially the latest tune shows that an instrument can be played at it's defined notation-range and to have fat bass sounds and high toned percussion tuned together (instrument-changing FX-inclusive) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dely Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Particular the "Chuck Rock" tune is to me a real peace of music played by pokey with the known software limitations, as it has the same "blues" as the amiga original has. Dear emkay, if you think that your conv is real piece of music then you are probably joking or you are completely deaf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drac030 Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Example: Hearing non-professional people singing, I always come to the same conclusion, if he/she is "out of tune" as a professional musician has (did a test once ago) In theory it is the proof that I have an ear for "in tune or not". In theory, maybe. But in practice you don't know what's wrong with the "Chuck" tune, which means to me that you can't recognize when a sound is out of the tune and when it is not... And it is not a question of waveforms, as you seem to think (you may dislike the YM sound waveform, but this does not mean that notes generated by this chip are out of the tune). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 11, 2006 Author Share Posted March 11, 2006 Particular the "Chuck Rock" tune is to me a real peace of music played by pokey with the known software limitations, as it has the same "blues" as the amiga original has. Dear emkay, if you think that your conv is real piece of music then you are probably joking or you are completely deaf. 1031857[/snapback] Ofcourse, my sentence is depending on the borders of the soundchip possibilities... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 11, 2006 Author Share Posted March 11, 2006 In theory, maybe. But in practice you don't know what's wrong with the "Chuck" tune, which means to me that you can't recognize when a sound is out of the tune and when it is not... And it is not a question of waveforms, as you seem to think (you may dislike the YM sound waveform, but this does not mean that notes generated by this chip are out of the tune). 1031863[/snapback] Then I have very bad news for you The notes of the main voice are technically more precisely than any other 8-bit resolution using tune on the A8. The question is, why A8 people do not like it and some do. Well I was really interested, when on Kohina my "FSR" Tune was named cool, and, after that, it was realized "good" at the scene.... why? I think, without that statement, someone would name it "out of tune". Btw: The "Chuck Rock Tune" and the "Dragon Tune" are done with the same techniques. Only the tune has a different style. Think about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drac030 Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Think about it I don't have anything to think about, actually, and also I don't see any "bad news for me" here. You expressed a wonder, why the Chuck wasn't accepted warmly. I told you why, and if you don't accept this answer, it is actually your problem, not mine. And anyway I am not suprised by your reaction. As I told you, explaining tunes to someone deaf is like explaining colors to a blind one. Well, I at least tried. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 o.k. indeed the "chuck rock" & "dragon" tunes are out of tune, which means, the pitches are not always that correct as they should be...simply as that but i don't really care if they sound a little out of pitch here and there...as if that's the ONLY thing that matters. because, anyway the sound is very impressive for a Pokey production. The way of generating this kind of sound on Pokey is by no means easy. At first the note-tables of RMT are not optimal for this task, thus a musician has to manually correct 'every' note. Understanding the mathematics behind computing the needed pitches for a certain wanted frequency and filter setting is far from straightforward, and RMT simply doesn't support that. So I think if you know these things then you'll listen to the works of M.K. with very different ears. And in a sense I share the view of emkay: most of the traditional pokey tunes are two octaves too high ....and f.e. one of the things I really hate is the generator C bass type sounds most of the demoscene music uses, it's ugly, it has no deep music-supporting sound, and most of the notes you can play in gen. C are:.....(well?)...OUT OF TUNE (out of pitch)! So I think emkay did a great job in giving an alternative for mainstream pokey music ...and as soon as RMT would support more flexible note-tables, everything's going to be fine...though the real limitations would then off course be the resolution of the pokey generators.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 11, 2006 Author Share Posted March 11, 2006 o.k. indeed the "chuck rock" & "dragon" tunes are out of tune, which means, the pitches are not always that correct as they should be...simply as that Yes, but they are more in tune than simple 8-bit sound programming. A "problem" here is that, by using the "straight" notation range, instead of "too high", makes the ears more sensitive to wrong pitches. With filter-variations you can do FX for equalizing. And this is what cannot work when creating the FX inside RMT (crossing over the correct pitch doing a flanger FX) and the real thing doesn't do the same. It is all possible on the real thing, with a full pokey supporting synth tracker. (hm... I'm repeating myself again) Well, after I found the possibility of adjusting the timing within RMT, I think I have shown enough examples and at least audible tunes. Actually, I haven't any time, the next time for creating more tunes/examples... you know why Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drac030 Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 Side note, emkay and analmux: making a clear sound higher or lower by an interval of an interger number of octaves doesn't render the sound to be out of the tune. If you think so, then it seems that either of you misunderstands completely what "out of the tune" means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 12, 2006 Author Share Posted March 12, 2006 Side note, emkay and analmux: making a clear sound higher or lower by an interval of an interger number of octaves doesn't render the sound to be out of the tune. If you think so, then it seems that either of you misunderstands completely what "out of the tune" means. The main problem is, when using the wrong notation range and "not for music good" harmonics, you don't get close enough into the music itself. The deeper you turn into the music, the more you recognize wrong notes. If you don't like the music, it turns into "out of tune" before you really start to listen to it. According to "out of tune"... I really had to learn, that the title tune from "Rescue on fractalus" has something to do with the "entry of the valkyries". It sounds fully different to me. People, that like "Carmina Burana" mostly don't recognize "Metallica" as music.... and vice versa. BTW. I like both (For me the instruments have to fit to the played music, and everything is ok) Or, to say it in other words: all 4 channel tunes, even if from Grayscale, are technically out of tune. But the notes are done sounding nicer together. When starting a note in the wrong time, it turns out aswell. And, that is the bigger problem with my "test" tunes. While simple sounds start in the first step of an envelope, the filter preparation takes up to 3 VBI/envelope steps. The step-width between the notes is "handycapped" by the 8-bit resolution. 16 bit and filter-timing correction can almost fully solve this problem. ... not to start talking about the 50Hz only manipulations ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted March 12, 2006 Share Posted March 12, 2006 (edited) Side note, emkay and analmux: making a clear sound higher or lower by an interval of an interger number of octaves doesn't render the sound to be out of the tune. If you think so, then it seems that either of you misunderstands completely what "out of the tune" means. Well nobody said that emkay or I think that. The only thing said is (indeed confirming that pitch deviations are the same in different octaves) that the middle part of our audible spectrum is more sensitive to slightly detuned notes, the upper octaves but also especially the lower octaves (bass region) are less sensible. So I think you missed the point: If you play Mozart 2 octaves too high then it could still be in the right frequency ratios, but it's plain ugly, simple as that, and that's what counts. And further, I perfectly understand what 'out of tune' means. Do you fully understand how Pokey generates (filtered) sounds and how RMT deals with it? Please can you do an RMT song with the advanced filter settings, and make a tune that's correctly tuned? ....... or to summarize this discussion that has lasted a few years: people say: emkay, your music is out of tune reason: RMT is not a fully supporting tracker: you shouldn't generate complex sounds with RMT it's not emkay's fault that his RMT's are out of pitch. mostly .mod files are used: they are most of the times correctly notated songs, so the conversion from mod to pokey format done by RMT must be correct first. from the so called 'demo scene' I didn't hear a lot of interesting pokey sounds last years ...so because emkay seems to be the only one sharing experiments with RMT (which are not 100% guaranteed succesfull pieces of music) he seems to make worthless music? ...and f.e. Funny Step or Violin of Doom I regard as very interesting pieces of pokey potential....off course a lot can be done better, but pokey isn't a simple chip at all, so don't expect 1st quality music from the start..this has to grow. enough said about this. Edited March 12, 2006 by analmux Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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