Thomas Jentzsch Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Like this? Pretty interesting! And sounds surprisingly close to the original. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Why not try to make a single channel version of the melody (like the one from the ZX Spectrum - see attachment below)? Nah, the 2600 can do much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 I've listened to Paul's tune in the game quite a bit (since the game was running the entire time at OVGE) and I like it (and it's a catchy tune). However, I just listened to the conversion of the original music that Manuel did and I feel that something along these lines should be used for the game if it's ever released in cartridge form. Given how much care is being taken to reproduce Boulder Dash on the 2600 as faithful to the original as possible, I feel the original music should be used as well. I didn't think the original tune would fare very well on the 2600, but it is surprisingly good and close to the original. I think this tune should only be used for a title screen (if one is made), and not in-game. Perhaps Paul's music can be used in-game? ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybergoth Posted June 20, 2005 Share Posted June 20, 2005 Hi there! Cool, but a bit out of tune I think... especially when the two channels should go together as in the original. Why not try to make a single channel version of the melody (like the one from the ZX Spectrum - see attachment below)? Then maybe the second channel could be used for percussion (or other rythmic elements)... 877434[/snapback] It's a 1:1 conversion considering channel usage. The C64 tune uses only 2 SID channels and each has been transferred to the VCS as close to the original as possible. It's very simple, only 128 bytes of data per channel. In case a musician wants to try his hands on fixing the notes that are out of tune, I attached all required source code to compile the tune. (Only tsmsong.h needs to be touched.) Greetings, Manuel bd.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moderntimes99 Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 Why not try to make a single channel version of the melody (like the one from the ZX Spectrum - see attachment below)? Nah, the 2600 can do much better. 877577[/snapback] Hmm... what I meant was that the melody easily translates to only one channel and then leaves the other channel for some simple rythmic elements. This also has the benefit that channel 1 does not have to be in tune with channel 2, which might be hard to achieve on the 2600. In the two channel example below, the melody goes in channel 1, and a simple hihat+snare in channel 2. (Sorry for the old ST-01 sounds, but that's what I usually like to play around with... bd_erik_v3_experimental3.mp3 Regards, Moderntimes99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moderntimes99 Posted June 22, 2005 Share Posted June 22, 2005 In the two channel example below, the melody goes in channel 1, and a simple hihat+snare in channel 2. (Sorry for the old ST-01 sounds, but that's what I usually like to play around with... bd_erik_v3_experimental3.mp3 878738[/snapback] And here is the ImpulseTracker file in case someone would like to play around with it... bd_erik_v3_experimental3.zip Regards, Moderntimes99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moderntimes99 Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 (edited) In the two channel example below, the melody goes in channel 1, and a simple hihat+snare in channel 2. (Sorry for the old ST-01 sounds, but that's what I usually like to play around with... bd_erik_v3_experimental3.mp3 878738[/snapback] And here is the ImpulseTracker file in case someone would like to play around with it... bd_erik_v3_experimental3.zip Regards, Moderntimes99 878746[/snapback] And here is finally my attempt at implemting it on the 2600... What I have done is to put the melody in channel 1 only, in order to avoid channel 1 and 2 being out of tune. The melody is played on a combination of saw, lead and square in order to cover for the 4 octaves required by the melody. Notes that have a lot of noise in them are played slightly shorter than notes that are in tune (might have to remove this in order to not generate unwanted 50Hz buzz...). It is all based on Paul Slocum's excellent Sound Kit v2.0. The song as an mp3 (sampled from my real 2600): bd_erik__from_real_2600_.mp3 alternative link: bd.mp3 The song as a binary: bd_erik.zip Best regards, Moderntimes99 Edited June 27, 2005 by moderntimes99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Andrew Davie Posted June 27, 2005 Author Share Posted June 27, 2005 The song as an mp3 (sampled from my real 2600):bd_erik__from_real_2600_.mp3 881867[/snapback] I would like to listen to this -- but I can't download the MP3. Could you send it to me privately... or fix the link? Thanks A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 It sounds way too slow, almost like it was based on Boulderdash running on a PAL system. IMHO the one-note Spectrum version sounds overall more faithful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moderntimes99 Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 It sounds way too slow, almost like it was based on Boulderdash running on a PAL system. 882007[/snapback] A very good comment indeed! And maybe something that I wouldn't have thought about otherwise! As I live in Sweden I'm of course used to the slower PAL rendition and used this tempo (even if the .bin file I posted yesterday was timed for 60fps) just because this is what I think Boulder Dash should sound like. I am right now rewriting the tune, from 1.5 to 3 in tempodelay in order to allow for some finer adjustments in speed. In the final version the tempo at 60 fps should of course be the NTSC tempo. Just out of curiousity, if you run the current .bin file at a fixed fps within Z26 - which fps do you find gives the "right" tempo? 65, 70 or even 75 fps? Regards, Moderntimes99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 if u play the bin in an emu at 60hz it sounds a little more normal. I have to say my vote goes for getting the real music in there as faithfully as possible. Also still have to say I'm amazed what you guys can do with 2600 sound these days (ahem, thanks again paul,) maybe if there were a bonus level exclusive to the 2600 version, it could feature paul's music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Also, the original tune has no percussion in it. It's all pure square-wave stuff. Hey, maybe someone could dig into the BoulderDash SAP file (which, as I understand it, is just a little self-contained 6502 program) and copy the actual music code over to the 2600? It should be possible to get an as-perfect-as-possible port of the music that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybergoth Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Hi there! It should be possible to get an as-perfect-as-possible port of the music that way. That is precisely the version I posted earlier in this thread (based on the SID file though). It just requires a real musician to replace the out of tune notes with ones that fit better. Greetings, Manuel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Basing off the SAP version would likely yield better results, since POKEY and TIA's sound registers are much more similar. And you don't need a musician to convert the frequency data, just a calculator. Plus, on comparing the two versions, the C64 version of the song seems slightly flatter and more simplistic than the original. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybergoth Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Hi there! And you don't need a musician to convert the frequency data, just a calculator. You obviously have no clue about creating music on the VCS. Greetings, Manuel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 And you don't need a musician to convert the frequency data, just a calculator. You obviously have no clue about creating music on the VCS. Very obviously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moderntimes99 Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 I have to say my vote goes for getting the real music in there as faithfully as possible. 882333[/snapback] Here's a "plain" version of the Boulder Dash tune, without any percussion whatsoever. It should also have the correct "NTSC tempo" when played in Z26 at 60fps. bd_plain.zip Best regards, Moderntimes99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 You obviously have no clue about creating music on the VCS. Because the magical aura of a musician can coax the 2600 hardware to produce frequencies that it wouldn't be capable of otherwise? Right. Composing something new from scratch is one thing, but accurately porting an existing song pretty much constrains you to the "closest-fit" solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+batari Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Because the magical aura of a musician can coax the 2600 hardware to produce frequencies that it wouldn't be capable of otherwise? Right. 883139[/snapback] Well, to be precise, the 2600 CAN do basically any frequency with some complicated tricks, even without special hardware, like is done in Red Box/Blue Box. But this takes up so many kernel cycles to do that it practically rules out putting it in anything but the simplest game (certainly not Boulderdash.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercat Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Composing something new from scratch is one thing, but accurately porting an existing song pretty much constrains you to the "closest-fit" solution. 883139[/snapback] Your 'calculator', however, can't really determine what is musically the closest fit. Sure it might give you numbers that are closest in frequency to the correct notes, or it might even go so far as to suggest what key to transpose the piece into for a least-squares fit of sorts. But getting good music on the 2600 generally requires going beyond that. In some situations, a note which is 35 cents sharp might sound horrible and selecting a different pitch entirely might sound better. In other cases, the note which is sharp might actually sound okay and changing it would disrupt the melodic flow of the piece. Your 'calculator' is very unlikely to know the difference. Also, while some people's opinions may differ, I tend to think that percussion on the 2600 is good for smoothing over intonation problems. That plus it sounds cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kisrael Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Hmm...just a thought, I don't think being a musician is neccesarily likely to help. A "real-world" composer, yes. Or a really talented musician with a TON of "ear training" and improvisation. I tend to place a little more stock in mechanical methods, but maybe that's just 'cause I'm a mediocre musician. I wonder how stuff like that kickin' version of Gyruss' Tachotta and Fugue was done, mostly mechanically or w/ a lot of tweaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercat Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 I tend to place a little more stock in mechanical methods, but maybe that's just 'cause I'm a mediocre musician. 883215[/snapback] When I ported my "Wormy" jingle to the 2600 (quite a few years ago, actually) I wrote a PC program in which I specified the 'importance' of different pitches and then had the program search for the least awful tuning. That actually worked pretty well after I tweaked things a few times. Too bad Atari wasted silicon on the RESMPx circuit instead of adding a 1/2/4/8 prescalar circuit to the sound generators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybergoth Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Hi there! Because the magical aura of a musician can coax the 2600 hardware to produce frequencies that it wouldn't be capable of otherwise? Right. You pretty much nailed it. Matching frequencies will only get you so far and it requires a good ear and knowledge about harmonies to fix those parts where a "close fit" just ruins the tune. Ask any musician and he'll tell you that there's few things worse than a note being a half-tone away in an accord. Greetings, Manuel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Well, to be precise, the 2600 CAN do basically any frequency with some complicated tricks, even without special hardware, like is done in Red Box/Blue Box. But this takes up so many kernel cycles to do that it practically rules out putting it in anything but the simplest game (certainly not Boulderdash.) The original Boulderdash only runs music on the title screen, so CPU-hogging routines aren't necessarily out of the picture. Personally, I'm far more annoyed at changed (but musically "correct") notes than slightly off-key notes. For example, the theme music from C64 Archon drives me up the wall because it changes a few notes from the original Atari version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supercat Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Personally, I'm far more annoyed at changed (but musically "correct") notes than slightly off-key notes. For example, the theme music from C64 Archon drives me up the wall because it changes a few notes from the original Atari version. 883501[/snapback] The Commodore has three voices instead of four, and so notes may have been changed to fill in for that, but otherwise the C64's pitch accuracy and frequency range are better than those of the Atari 8-bit computers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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