Apple IIgs Game Questions

[Tempest]

I've got two questions about the Apple IIgs and games.

 

1. How compatible is the IIgs with Apple II games? I've been searching for answers, but so far I can't find any pages that mention game incompatibilites. However so far I've run into at least three games that won't work (all originals):

 

Stargate

Gremlins

Moon Patrol

 

Usually they just crap out while booting with some text that looks like the assembler monitor program. These games work perfectly on my IIe, so I know its not the disk. I've also had some problems with some of my bootleg games, but with those I could understand if they didn't work since they bypass normal boot proceedures and do odd things to defeat copy protections.

 

 

2. How good is the IIgs RGB montior for Apple II games? I know IIe games were written with a composite monitor in mind, but they should work on the RGB monitor. However I've been told that the RGB monitor doesn't do a decent job with the double hi-res mode, which makes me nervous. I thought I noticed some fuzziness, but it might be my imagination.

 

On a side note, I wish the IIgs montior wasn't so freakin' small compared to my IIe monitor.

 

 

Tempest

[Rockin' Kat]

I've always heard of people complaining about the picture from 8-bit games not looking so good on the iigs... but I've honestly never really had any issues with it.

 

As far as incompatabilaties... I went ahead and popped in my game archive CD (I put the entire games folder form asimove on an HFS formated CD R... works great with the CD ROM drive on my IIgs..) found Moon Patrol and wrote it to floppy. It works ok(mind it is a cracked version). Are you using the same floppy drive on the //e and the IIgs? maybe the head on your drive is dirty, or the IIgs is just being more susceptable to a problem with your floppies. I also have a ROM 01... but I've never heard of the ROM 03 having issus with 8-bit games... just certain IIgs games.

 

Personally I think most of the really knowlegable Apple II users don't tend to hang around forums... they're in usenet on comp.sys.apple2 and they're usually pretty nice too... that's where I usually end up getting my Apple II qustions answered when I don't find it in the CSA2 FAQs.

[+FujiSkunk]

1. How compatible is the IIgs with Apple II games?

 

Completely compatible. There may be some issues when trying to run Apple II games on the "fast" speed setting; I don't recall ever seeing any, but it's been a very long time since I last got to play with a IIGS. On the "normal" speed setting, there should be no issues at all.

 

2. How good is the IIgs RGB montior for Apple II games?  I know IIe games were written with a composite monitor in mind, but they should work on the RGB monitor.  However I've been told that the RGB monitor doesn't do a decent job with the double hi-res mode, which makes me nervous.

 

The "problem" is that the RGB monitors used by the IIGS and the II-compatible Macintosh work a little too well. The Apple II creates its color pallette by manipulating what is essentially a high-resolution bitmap. One side effect of this technique is that any given color will not line up perfectly with any other color, even if the colors are supposedly mapped to pixels on the same row or column. On a composite monitor, this isn't very noticeable, but on an RGB monitor, multicolored lines that are supposed to be straight will show some obvious crookedness and/or blended colors. This doesn't affect compatibility, however, and really shouldn't be a factor in game play, either.

Edited May 22, 2005 by skunkworx

[Jeff Lodoen]

I've got two questions about the Apple IIgs and games.

 

1. How compatible is the IIgs with Apple II games?  I've been searching for answers, but so far I can't find any pages that mention game incompatibilites.  However so far I've run into at least three games that won't work (all originals):

 

That could be the problem, the copy protection is still intact. The other poster mentioned using an archived image... a good bet it was deprotected. And of course these are 20+ year-old disks.

[Tempest]

As far as incompatabilaties... I went ahead and popped in my game archive CD (I put the entire games folder form asimove on an HFS formated CD R... works great with the CD ROM drive on my IIgs..)  found Moon Patrol and wrote it to floppy.  It works ok(mind it is a cracked version).  Are you using the same floppy drive on the //e and the IIgs? maybe the head on your drive is dirty, or the IIgs is just being more susceptable to a problem with your floppies.  I also have a ROM 01... but I've never heard of the ROM 03 having issus with 8-bit games... just certain IIgs games.

 

My IIgs is a ROM 03, think that could be the issue? I was also trying to use the original disk, not a crack. I'm using the 5.25" drive that came with my IIgs as I believe the ones that are on my IIe aren't compatible with the IIgs (they look the same, but they're not the right ones).

 

Speaking of ROM 01/03, is there any real advantage to having a ROM 03? Yes I know it supports extra memory, but to me thats no big deal. I have a spare IIgs with a ROM 01 board that I was thinking about swapping in.

 

Tempest

[Tempest]

BTW is there a way to get rid of that stupid boarder around the monitor? The thing is small enough, and now I'm losing an inch of each side! What's the point of that boarder?

 

Tempest

[TailChao]

I don't think the border is removable, sorry. It's just the way the ][GS displays.

 

As for having a ROM03 over a ROM01, The ROM03 allows for the use of expansion cards without disabling the artifically mapped ones in the ][GS which comply to the ports on the back (For example if you put a SCSI card in slot 7, you would loose appletalk support) Also, the ROM itself is larger, putting more of the operating system in ROM, and you have 1MB RAM standard onboard instead of 256K.

 

I have a ROM01 myself, and would kill for an 03, it just smooths things out so much.

[Tempest]

Someone on the message board mentioned this, I wonder if it could be the problem?

 

Are you using a Disk ][ interface card or the smartport connector?  The

$C600 boot ROM changed, so some custom boot loaders don't work.  Cracked

versions of the games work fine.

 

Im using the smart port I think (daisy chaining the 5.25 to 2 3.5's). I dont think I have a disk card in there. Would adding one and hooking the 5.25 to that fix the problem? I wonder if the boot code was only changed on the ROM 03 versions or if its changed in 01 as well?

 

This would explain why your cracked Moon Patrol works and my real one doesn't.

 

 

Tempest

[else]

I have a ROM01 myself, and would kill for an 03, it just smooths things out so much.

 

There are games and demos that won't work with the ROM 03. The problem is these programs bypass the firmware calls and instead talk directly to the hardware. When the hardware changed for the ROM 03, these programs no longer worked.

 

It is true that the ROM 03 has more code in firmware, but the OS loads this same firmware in to RAM for the ROM 01. So basically the ROM 01 gets patched at boot-up to exactly match the firmware of the ROM 03. The ROM 03 will be slightly faster since this firmware is in ROM rather than RAM, but the speed difference is so small that you'll never notice it.

 

There are some slot mapping differences as have already been pointed out. But these again are very minor.

 

The bottom line is there is no clear machine that is better. ROM 01 is a bit more compatible while ROM 03 has a few extra slot mapping features. At the end of the day the differences are so slight that IMHO it really doesn't matter which one you have....

Edited May 22, 2005 by else

[Rockin' Kat]

BTW is there a way to get rid of that stupid boarder around the monitor?  The thing is small enough, and now I'm losing an inch of each side!  What's the point of that boarder?

 

Tempest

859761[/snapback]

 

 

That border is there so that the whole picture is on the screen. It's there because the computer is designed for a monitor that overscans like a television(which the IIgs's monitor does) If you want a bigger monitor, you should be able to use a commodore or Amiga monitor that supports analog RGB input(like the 1084) with the right cable(it's just a different pinout).

 

I don't think that a ROM 01 or 03 really makes a difference when it comes to 8-bit games working or not. I'm pretty sure that was just for some earlier GS software

 

With those floppy drives, if they look the same, say the same thing on the bottom lable, and have the same connector at the end of the cable, then they should be the same.

 

As far as original copies of games go... I do buy them when given the opportunity, but I rarely use them.. I pretty much stick to backups and cracked copies downloaded from archives. Too much of a pain dealing with old copy protected floppies when they start to be unpredictable with whether they'll work in one drive and not another.

Edited May 23, 2005 by SuperPsycho

[+FujiSkunk]

BTW is there a way to get rid of that stupid boarder around the monitor?  The thing is small enough, and now I'm losing an inch of each side!  What's the point of that boarder?

 

 

That border is there so that the whole picture is on the screen. It's there because the computer is designed for a monitor that overscans like a television(which the IIgs's monitor does)

 

If I'm not mistaken, the border color can be changed in the IIGS BIOS, probably on the same option screen that lets you switch between "normal" and "fast" processor speeds. You should be able to set the border color to black, which would essentially get rid of it.

[Rockin' Kat]

BTW is there a way to get rid of that stupid boarder around the monitor?  The thing is small enough, and now I'm losing an inch of each side!  What's the point of that boarder?

 

 

That border is there so that the whole picture is on the screen. It's there because the computer is designed for a monitor that overscans like a television(which the IIgs's monitor does)

 

If I'm not mistaken, the border color can be changed in the IIGS BIOS, probably on the same option screen that lets you switch between "normal" and "fast" processor speeds. You should be able to set the border color to black, which would essentially get rid of it.

860044[/snapback]

 

Well, actually, technically it would still be there.. but when you do that it does make the picture feel bigger.

[Rockin' Kat]

By the way, if you'd like to see something about using an alternate monitor... here's some info from the CSA2 FAQ... just follow this link:

 

http://home.swbell.net/rubywand/Csa2MONITOR.html#015

 

 

There you can find info about hooking up either a commodore 1084 monitor or one of the two first NEC Multisync monitors.

 

I highly recomend finding a commodore 1084 monitor over a multisync monitor. The IIgs has a border because it is intended for use with overscanning monitors. The Commodore 1084 overscans.... the multisync monitor underscans like more modern monitors so it produces a smaller picture than the commodore monitor would for the same size tube.

 

just for an example of an underscaning monitor with the IIgs, I've posted a photo of my IIgs hooked up to the multisync monitor off my dad's old 286.

[Tempest]

Incidentally, I did ask my question on the newsgroup forums and have gotten alot of great responses:

 

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/comp.s...addf3f56c83761d

 

However I find it annoying that it appears that I can't play many of my IIe games straight from the disk on my IIgs. Looks like the solution is to get cracked disk images and put them on my HD.

 

If I were to do this, I'd need to get that CD drive working, as that would make copying masses of images much easier. However it doesn't seem to work when I put it on the end of the chain with my Hard Drive. When I do, the IIgs doesn't recognize either of them. I never could get this working, but the guy I got this all from had it working, so I know it does. I never worried about it since I never saw a use for the CD drive.

 

So on the monitor front, how big are those Amiga monitors? I'd like to get something that is at least as big as my old IIe monitor was. That was enough viewable space for me.

 

Tempest

[JB]

Well, actually, technically it would still be there.. but when you do that it does make the picture feel bigger.

860064[/snapback]

It's POSSIBLE that it'll actually make the image bigger. Or smaller, more likely, now that I think.

On some dispalys(usually most pronounced on TVs) the image width will vary with scanline brightness.

So a white border would make the image flare out wider. And burn your retinas in the process.

 

Yeah, stick with black.

[Rockin' Kat]

However I find it annoying that it appears that I can't play many of my IIe games straight from the disk on my IIgs.  Looks like the solution is to get cracked disk images and put them on my HD. 

 

If I were to do this, I'd need to get that CD drive working, as that would make copying masses of images much easier.  However it doesn't seem to work when I put it on the end of the chain with my Hard Drive.  When I do, the IIgs doesn't recognize either of them.  I never could get this working, but the guy I got this all from had it working, so I know it does.  I never worried about it since I never saw a use for the CD drive.

 

860141[/snapback]

 

Actually, what you'd do is get cracked disk images and write them to floppies... there are utilities for loading 8-bit games from disk images, but they only work for single disk single side games. games that use more than one side of a floppy or more thanone floppy will not work without being loaded from a floppy. As for getting blank floppies, the CSA2 FAQ's lists a few vendors that sell both 5.25" and 3.5" DD floppies brand new.

 

http://home.swbell.net/rubywand/Csa2DSKETTE.html#008

 

....you might even notice my name on there for giving them a link for that section.. (assuming you even know what my name is)

 

Also, having the SCSI chain working with both a hard drive and CD ROM drive is pretty handy actually. I was able to put all the games from http://www.whatisthe2gs.apple2.org.za/ and from Asimov on one CD R. So I can just put the CD ROM in, pick a game, write it to floppy and go.

[Tempest]

So there's no real way to play games from the HD if they're more than one disk? Hmm... But single disk games would work?

 

I would think it would be a pain to copy a game to a disk each time I wanted to play it. I'm starting to think that I'm better off just going back to my good old IIe, as this IIgs stuff is starting to annoy me.

 

Tempest

[Rockin' Kat]

Well, you wouldn't have to write it to disk each time you wanted to play a game.. just the first time you wanted to play it.... but I'm sure that's what you meant.

 

But yeah, if you are only going to use it for 8-bit games and only want to use original copies with it, you could just sell it and stick with your IIe. The computer it self might be easy to get cheap, but the accessory cards you said you got with it are pretty pricy. Personally though I like the IIgs because it's generally easier to work with disk images on than other Apple II models... and eventually originals do fail.

[Tempest]

I don't know, I'm kinda torn. I'd like to use the IIgs but like I said, burning everything to a disk is somewhat of a pain (and if I'm doing that I might as use them on my IIe). But if I could put single disk games on the HD that would work. Those work right from the HD right?

 

So how exactly do I transfer the disk images to the IIgs in the first place? I guess I could burn the archive onto a CD and then read the CD with my IIgs, but is there an easier way?

 

But this brings up another issue. I could never get the CD Rom drive to work. When I plug it into the HD the IIgs doesn't recognize either them. I have a Apple High Speed SCSI card and the terminator for the end. I'm not quite sure why it doesn't work. Any ideas? It was all working when I got it, and it probably does work its just not being regonized.

 

Tempest

[Rockin' Kat]

So how exactly do I transfer the disk images to the IIgs in the first place?  I guess I could burn the archive onto a CD and then read the CD with my IIgs, but is there an easier way?

860682[/snapback]

 

The easiest way to do that is to burn an HFS(Mac OS Standard) format CD-R. It's a format that the IIgs handles well and it allows for long enough file names that there won't be too much trunication that things can be made out. Of cource, doing that would require a Mac... By the way, if you'd like I could always make another copy of my CD-R... I could even throw on some utilities so you don't run into any irritating chicken and the egg problems.

[Tempest]

So how exactly do I transfer the disk images to the IIgs in the first place?  I guess I could burn the archive onto a CD and then read the CD with my IIgs, but is there an easier way?

860682[/snapback]

 

The easiest way to do that is to burn an HFS(Mac OS Standard) format CD-R. It's a format that the IIgs handles well and it allows for long enough file names that there won't be too much trunication that things can be made out. Of cource, doing that would require a Mac... By the way, if you'd like I could always make another copy of my CD-R... I could even throw on some utilities so you don't run into any irritating chicken and the egg problems.

860687[/snapback]

 

Actually I have a shiny new Powerbook G4. I assume OS X still uses that format? Too bad it doesn't have a floppy drive or I could try writing discs as well. Still, this would require me to get my CD drive working on my IIgs, I'll have to look at that this weekend.

 

So can any single disc image be copied onto the HD and run from it? I wanted to try and copy one of my current game disks to the HD and see if it would run, but when I try and read one from OS 6, it just says that the disk isnt formatted. Why can't it read it? Do I need to use some utility to do that?

 

Tempest

[82atari5200]

So how exactly do I transfer the disk images to the IIgs in the first place?  I guess I could burn the archive onto a CD and then read the CD with my IIgs, but is there an easier way?

860682[/snapback]

 

The easiest way to do that is to burn an HFS(Mac OS Standard) format CD-R. It's a format that the IIgs handles well and it allows for long enough file names that there won't be too much trunication that things can be made out. Of cource, doing that would require a Mac... By the way, if you'd like I could always make another copy of my CD-R... I could even throw on some utilities so you don't run into any irritating chicken and the egg problems.

860687[/snapback]

 

Actually I have a shiny new Powerbook G4. I assume OS X still uses that format? Too bad it doesn't have a floppy drive or I could try writing discs as well. Still, this would require me to get my CD drive working on my IIgs, I'll have to look at that this weekend.

 

So can any single disc image be copied onto the HD and run from it? I wanted to try and copy one of my current game disks to the HD and see if it would run, but when I try and read one from OS 6, it just says that the disk isnt formatted. Why can't it read it? Do I need to use some utility to do that?

 

Tempest

860792[/snapback]

I have Plenty of spare Apple parts that I could hook you up with. I have 2 II+'s one mint. 3 ][e's, 1 IIC, IIGS, Space scsi cdrom drives. all mint and all work.The IIe supports all 5 1/4 disk formats. I personally like my IIe better. Also I have a bunch of duodisk drives. All working.

[Tempest]

I have Plenty of spare Apple parts that I could hook you up with. I have 2 II+'s one mint. 3 ][e's, 1 IIC, IIGS, Space scsi cdrom drives. all mint and all work.The IIe supports all 5 1/4 disk formats. I personally like my IIe better. Also I have a bunch of duodisk drives. All working.

 

Actually I might just go back to using my IIe, the IIgs seems like a pain for no real gain (other than a handful of interesting IIgs games). Heck I can't even play the one game I want to play on my Rom 03 IIgs: Shufflepuck Cafe! However I might use it to burn games from the Asimov archive onto 5.25 disks that I can use on my IIe...

 

I'm interested in the Duodisk drives. ATM my IIe montor is sitting on my 2 Unidisk drives and it causes them to tip at a bit of an angle which I'm afraid will damage them eventually. The Duodisk is much more stable, and actually made for what I'm trying to do. I assume the drives in the Duodisk are as good as the Unidisk drives right? I shouldn't have any problems with them then.

 

Tempest

[82atari5200]

Actually I might just go back to using my IIe, the IIgs seems like a pain for no real gain (other than a handful of interesting IIgs games). Heck I can't even play the one game I want to play on my Rom 03 IIgs: Shufflepuck Cafe! However I might use it to burn games from the Asimov archive onto 5.25 disks that I can use on my IIe...

 

I'm interested in the Duodisk drives. ATM my IIe montor is sitting on my 2 Unidisk drives and it causes them to tip at a bit of an angle which I'm afraid will damage them eventually. The Duodisk is much more stable, and actually made for what I'm trying to do. I assume the drives in the Duodisk are as good as the Unidisk drives right? I shouldn't have any problems with them then.

 

Tempest

860827[/snapback]

No. They're the same as the disk II and unidisk. I also have the Apple IIe RGB card with the Apple RGB Monitor made for it. Pretty sweet. It's got mechanical swivel that still works. Weighs about 50 lbs though.

[Tempest]

Apple made an RGB monitor for the IIe? Got any pictures of that, I'd be interested in seeing them. I wonder what use RGB would be on the IIe though, since the IIgs one causes problems with double hi-res games. I assume this monitor would have the same issues.

 

Tempest