Apple IIgs Game Incompatibilities

[Tempest]

As some of you remember, awhile back I had some questions about which Apple II games might not work on an Apple IIgs. I was told that they all worked (even in the Apple newsgroups) and that there must be something wrong with my IIgs if they didn't. The other day I was looking up something for the IIgs when I stumbled across this guys Apple II price list.

 

http://members.aol.com/rrbp/a2game.html

 

Notice how Ms. Pac-Man and Moon Patrol both say NOT IIgs? He must have had the same issues I did getting these two games to work. Now that I know this isn't all in my head, I'm going to try and make an official game IIgs incompatibility list. I think the reason no one has discovered these problems is because most Apple II users these days have cracked disk images they got off the web. It is only with the original disks that the problems seem to happen (perhaps it's the disk protection that is causing the problem?).

 

So far I know of three games that won't work unless cracked:

 

Moon Patrol

Ms. Pac-Man

Gremlins

 

I've also been told that Elite has some kind of graphics issues on a IIgs, but since I don't have that on disk I cannot verify this. I also have a few hacker multi-game disks where the menu screen doesn't show up. I have no idea why, but I know they use a cute star field background (like Galaxian) so that may use some incompatible programming trick. You never know what to expect with pirated disks...

 

I'm not exactly sure who will be interested in this information, but I hope someday it might make it into the Apple II FAQ. If anyone has an Apple IIgs set up and some original game disks laying around who can help me test, feel free to post your results. I think this is going to be very enlightening...

 

Tempest

[Xot]

So far I know of three games that won't work unless cracked:

 

Moon Patrol

Ms. Pac-Man

Gremlins

 

929773[/snapback]

 

I have no problems making Moon Patrol and Ms. Pac-Man work on my IIgs. Perhaps your disks are bad?

 

Would you like me to send copies of my Ms. Pac and Moon Patrol to test out?

 

Edit: Missed the "unless cracked" part. Never mind.

Edited September 12, 2005 by Xot

[+remowilliams]

I know at one point or another, I've come across stuff that didn't work properly on the IIGS. I think the last one was in fact an original copy protected disk. Though I can't remember what it was.

[Tempest]

I know at one point or another, I've come across stuff that didn't work properly on the IIGS.  I think the last one was in fact an original copy protected disk.  Though I can't remember what it was.

929786[/snapback]

 

I don't suppose you remember which games do you? I wonder exactly what makes them incompatible? Illegal Opcodes? Lack of a disk card? Some kind of minor hardware difference?

 

Tempest

[Bruce Tomlin]

I don't suppose you remember which games do you?  I wonder exactly what makes them incompatible?  Illegal Opcodes?  Lack of a disk card?  Some kind of minor hardware difference?

I wouldn't be surprised if the copy protection used illegal 6502 opcodes or side effects of page wraparound. This would also cause problems with a 65C02, which I think Apple used in some of its last Apple II systems.

[Xot]

I know at one point or another, I've come across stuff that didn't work properly on the IIGS.  I think the last one was in fact an original copy protected disk.  Though I can't remember what it was.

929786[/snapback]

 

I don't suppose you remember which games do you? I wonder exactly what makes them incompatible? Illegal Opcodes? Lack of a disk card? Some kind of minor hardware difference?

 

Tempest

929798[/snapback]

 

I've never been able to get Pac-Man to work on a IIgs. It's not an original disk so I always assumed it was a bad copy.

[Lord Thag]

Actually, (as I recall) it has to do with which rom revision you have on the IIgs. The earlier roms were buggy. You might want to upgrade your rom chip.

[Rockin' Kat]

Actually, (as I recall) it has to do with which rom revision you have on the IIgs. The earlier roms were buggy. You might want to upgrade your rom chip.

930198[/snapback]

 

I'm pretty sure differences between roms only affected compatablitiy for 16-bit software.... all three have similar reactions for 8-bit software as far as working or not from what I've seen.

 

As far as IIgs revisions go: There were three ROM versions and two Motherboard versions....

 

The ROM 00 was t he first version and did have some bugs in it.....

 

The ROM 01 was the second version.... you can upgrade a ROM 00 IIGS to a ROM 01.

 

The ROM 03 was the third version. It was a bigger ROM that had more tools to make GS OS go faster... it broke some earlier IIgs software that hit the hardware directly... it also had a different Motherboard version to go with it... which had 1MB of onboard RAM instead of 256k... you can not upgrade a 00 or 01 to a 03.

 

Personally I'd go for the 01 since it has the best compatibilty for IIGS specific software....

 

I keep a //c around for any 8-bit stuff that doesn't work with the IIgs since it's small and can be stored away easy when not in use. The IIgs is still good for working with files and of cource playing GS specific games...and 8-bit games that will work on it.

[else]

The ROM 01 was the second version.... you can upgrade a ROM 00 IIGS to a ROM 01.

 

Well, you *could* upgrade it back in the day. You're going to have a hard time finding the upgrade kit in 2005. Furthermore, if you have a ROM 00 I would recommend NOT upgrading it -- they tend to be highly collectible and fetch $$$ on eBay....

[Tempest]

I have ROM 03. ROM 03 actually has some better compatibility with Apple II games since it fixed some bug in the emulation. I'd have to dig up the note that someone sent me on it, but I know Dazzle Draw and Lode Runner were both affected by it.

 

Sometimes I don't think the IIgs is worth bothering with. The selection of IIgs games is small, and almost all of them are available for the Atari ST as well. Since I already have one set up next to my Apple IIe, I might as well just play those games on it.

 

That raises an interesting question, how does the IIgs compare to the Atari ST? The graphics look almost identical on the games I saw, but I know the ST runs faster so games probably play smoother. The only place I can think that the IIgs might be better is sound, but even then I'm not sure.

 

Tempest

[else]

I hear you. The only true, I mean true, advantage to the Apple IIgs over the Apple IIe in my mind is that it has build-in support for 3.5 inch disk drives -- whereas it's relatively expensive to add 3.5 inch disk drives to an Apple IIe. But some of the Apple IIc models also have built in support as well, so even that isn't much of an advantage....

[Bruce Tomlin]

The ROM 01 was the second version.... you can upgrade a ROM 00 IIGS to a ROM 01.

Well, you *could* upgrade it back in the day. You're going to have a hard time finding the upgrade kit in 2005. Furthermore, if you have a ROM 00 I would recommend NOT upgrading it -- they tend to be highly collectible and fetch $$$ on eBay....

Are you sure about that? I just did a search on ebay and sorted by price. It looks to me like SCSI cards and systems with built-in Vulcan hard drives are at the top of the list, then larger RAM upgrades. But at the top of the price heap is a Transwarp CPU upgrade.

 

Top of the computer versions seems to be the ROM 3, with one being a Woz lid ROM 3. In other words, the Woz lid taken from an old ROM 0 and slapped on a ROM 3... my two main systems have Woz lids on ROM 1 motherboards (I never found a ROM 3 in the wild) with larger RAM cards. One has a Vulcan, the other has a SCSI card.

 

I know that as a non-rabid collector (in other words, I didn't have one back in the day, nor did I drool over one, as I already had a Macintosh), having the non-buggy ROM, larger RAM, and hard drive support is more important than a crappo ROM 0. The only part of an original version that I care about is the lid. I didn't even bother to pull the ROM, as I could just swap the lids.

[+batari]

I don't suppose you remember which games do you?  I wonder exactly what makes them incompatible?  Illegal Opcodes?  Lack of a disk card?  Some kind of minor hardware difference?

I wouldn't be surprised if the copy protection used illegal 6502 opcodes or side effects of page wraparound. This would also cause problems with a 65C02, which I think Apple used in some of its last Apple II systems.

929897[/snapback]

AFAIK, no copy protection used illegal 6502 opcodes but some DID use the indirect jump bug. Upon boot, the Apple disk firmware would always load 256 bytes into 0800-08FF, and several games put in a JMP ($08FF) to try to fool crackers. It didn't fool too many, and it ended up backfiring when the games didn't work on Apple IIe enhanced, IIc or IIgs systems.

[+remowilliams]

That raises an interesting question, how does the IIgs compare to the Atari ST?  The graphics look almost identical on the games I saw, but I know the ST runs faster so games probably play smoother.  The only place I can think that the IIgs might be better is sound, but even then I'm not sure.

Tempest

As far as "normal" raw static resolution/depth the IIgs can be on par with the ST. When it comes to moving things around a bit, well the IIgs will get it's ass righteously kicked by an ST.

 

When a IIgs is properly programmed for highest quality sound (i.e. actually putting that neat little synth chip to use) it makes the ST cry and go hide in a corner (I love the ST to death, but its sound chip was and is ass). Unfortunately very little uses the IIgs soundchip to its potential. After Apple getting burned by the lawsuit for including that chip, they had little interest in pushing it, or including such sound capability in later machines, as we all know.

 

I've got 01 and 03 IIgs I believe. 03 does break some of the IIgs native software, but I don't remember there being a particular difference between 01/03 for the older II stuff.

 

My IIgs has an 8MB upgrade and a 420(?) hardcard. No CPU upgrade, just not worth the $$$.

 

The IIgs is certainly an odd machine, and I could see why people would skip it. I like Apple's little bastard though, it is a neat little package and was capable of quite a bit - though unfortunately not really worth the $$$ at its market introduction.

 

The killer app for the IIgs now would be the ability to run apple .DSK images from the HD. Sadly that's never happened to my knowledge

[Tempest]

The killer app for the IIgs now would be the ability to run apple .DSK images from the HD.  Sadly that's never happened to my knowledge

930664[/snapback]

 

That's exactly what I was hoping I could do when I first got my IIgs. There must be some way...

 

After Apple getting burned by the lawsuit for including that chip, they had little interest in pushing it, or including such sound capability in later machines, as we all know.

 

I never heard about that. Ensoniq brought a lawsuit against Apple?

 

I've got 01 and 03 IIgs I believe. 03 does break some of the IIgs native software, but I don't remember there being a particular difference between 01/03 for the older II stuff.

 

Yeah I don't know much about it, but this is what someone once told me.

 

As a matter of fact, the ROM 3 IIgs is actually more backwards compatible

with 8-bit Apple II software than the ROM 00 and 01. Games that require you

enable 'Alternate Display Mode' (where you see a screen filled with '2's) is

done automatically using hardware shadowing of text page 2. And looking

up my old postings in Google groups, I can see, interestingly, there were a

few programs that worked on the ROM 3 (Dazzle Draw Slide Show, Lode

Runner) yet would lock-up instantly booting up on my ROM 01.

 

Tempest

[+remowilliams]

The killer app for the IIgs now

After Apple getting burned by the lawsuit for including that chip, they had little interest in pushing it, or including such sound capability in later machines, as we all know.

 

I never heard about that. Ensoniq brought a lawsuit against Apple?

 

930709[/snapback]

Not Ensoniq, but the record label for the Beatles. Had something to do with Apple being able to use the name Apple in an agreement with Apple Records. I guess iTunes (and it's store) is the last laugh on them.

 

"The Ensoniq chip in the Apple IIGS was a brilliant move by Apple, but

it drew a lawsuit by Apple Records, the Beatles' company. Apple never

again put a synth chip in any computer. Even today, Macintosh does not

have hardware synthesizers. Macintosh needs to go around this with

software based synthesis."

[else]

The ROM 01 was the second version.... you can upgrade a ROM 00 IIGS to a ROM 01.

Well, you *could* upgrade it back in the day. You're going to have a hard time finding the upgrade kit in 2005. Furthermore, if you have a ROM 00 I would recommend NOT upgrading it -- they tend to be highly collectible and fetch $$$ on eBay....

Are you sure about that? I just did a search on ebay and sorted by price. It looks to me like SCSI cards and systems with built-in Vulcan hard drives are at the top of the list, then larger RAM upgrades. But at the top of the price heap is a Transwarp CPU upgrade.

 

Top of the computer versions seems to be the ROM 3, with one being a Woz lid ROM 3. In other words, the Woz lid taken from an old ROM 0 and slapped on a ROM 3... my two main systems have Woz lids on ROM 1 motherboards (I never found a ROM 3 in the wild) with larger RAM cards. One has a Vulcan, the other has a SCSI card.

 

I know that as a non-rabid collector (in other words, I didn't have one back in the day, nor did I drool over one, as I already had a Macintosh), having the non-buggy ROM, larger RAM, and hard drive support is more important than a crappo ROM 0. The only part of an original version that I care about is the lid. I didn't even bother to pull the ROM, as I could just swap the lids.

930651[/snapback]

 

In case you didn't notice, you answered your own question. How many ROM 0 ones did you find on eBay -- none you say? Why not? Because 99.9% of them were upgraded to ROM 1. That makes the ROM 0 very, very rare. And we all know that means on eBay. I've watched Apple stuff for years and years on eBay and every once in a blue moon a ROM 0 will come up for auction -- and like I said they tend to fetch a good deal of money when they do....

 

Look at it this way -- why do buggy Atari 2600 prototypes go for so much money when you could buy the release version for only a buck or two? Because Atari collectors are fanatics. So why should Apple collectors be any less fanatical....

Edited September 14, 2005 by else