what do you want the FB3 to be?

Paranoid · February 6, 2006

mini 5200 all the way!

With self centering sticks

My guess is that it will look like a 5200, but use 400/800 roms that already have digital control i nmind...

My pipe dream would have backwards compatible 5200 sticks that resolve some of the issues of the originals...

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This is my dream too... especially the fixed backward compatible sticks. Being that I've got FB2 sticks plugged into my 2600 VCS, the idea of having FB3 sticks plugged into my Atari 5200 seems very attractive.

Having a system that accepted some kind of industry standard memory card and having Atari quietly ignore the fact that this would allow us to load up ROM images on the media and play those on the console would be a heckuva "good-faith" step in showing unspoken support for the retro-community. They could present this feature as allowing Atari to sell cart packages on that type of memory... but if the consumer was saavy and hardcore... the other option would be out there. That allows a cartridge port while ALSO avoiding the tech support issues that a few have cited as a reason for Atari NOT to go anywhere near this route. They would still have a consumer grade plug and play console that could sell from Toys R Us and would attract average-joes looking for nostalgia... but would completely cater to THIS crowd and earn them rave reviews and lots of good will. I wouldn't hold my *breath* for this because... well... I can see both legal and marketing throwing a fit over something like this. It would be a tough sale for the techies who *understand* who make these systems.

I agree, too. I think we're going to see a 400/800 with some 5200 (title)ports/support... or a 7800.

I want to point out something... and hopefully someone reading this will trickle this back up to Atari management.

I'm an out of work IT profession, 35. When I *have* a job... it isn't uncommon for me to clear 6 figures. My wife is executive management with a medical billing company. SHE clears 6 figures. We have a 4 year old daughter. My position has us financially struggling... but if the IT market were better, we would have a lot of discretionary cash.

I've got a 42" plasma television with a surround sound entertainment system and an XBox... with probably 2 dozen games. I've got another xBox in my "game room" for head to head games across my LAN (my house is wired, and has a data closet, and a small LAN with two servers and 8 workstations throughout the house). I play xBox games and PC Lan games with "The Guys" on beer drinking nights and such... and play the xBox myself (prefering console I/O to PC gaming control solutions... prefering console game loading ease to PC game configuration... feeling that online cheating is less rampant on console platforms than on PC games). But my wife and kid have *very* little interest in the Xbox. My kid will play some games for a few seconds... but frankly, most of them are too complex.

Since we got the Flashback 2, which drove me to find a 2600, and a 5200... we spend a LOT of time in the gameroom, in front of a 19" TV... playing Warlords or Ms. Pac Man. I've built a MAME machine in there too... so classic arcade games get a lot of milage THAT way, too. My kid loves it... my wife loves it. These old games *really* bring my family together in ways that encourage us to interact... and in ways that no modern solution is capable of. We'll all sit in the Home Office, PC room, each on a different PC, each doing their own thing... (surfing, reading e-mail, playing at Playhouse Disney... whatever)... None of us can agree on TV shows most of the time... (The kid and I want Spongebob, wife wants Law and Order... Wife and Kid want Little House on the Prarie... I want Discovery Channel... wife and I want Lost... kid wants DragonTales). The only time we all get together, and ALL have a good time that we all agree on is in front of the Atari consoles.

In my mind... that translates into a GOLDMINE if Atari can keep it up. Because getting ME hooked isn't the trick... If I were single, LOTS of my money would go into this hobby. Atari had me at "Hello". Nope. Getting my WIFE hooked... and my KID hooked... that is where Atari will lock up a lucrative market. Of course... not just me... but lots of other families *like* me. Something like a Jakks joystick or the FB 1 just burns the market... people looking for nostaliga get an unsatisfying fix for $20, don't think about it much, and sell it at their next garage sale. People looking for a REAL fix are disappointed. I looked at the FB1, held off (once bitten, twice shy, thank Jakks for that) and when the reviews said it sucked, I never bought. With the FB2, it was clear I needed to buy.

I was asking my wife about it... and without any coaching, she nailed the reason most often cited for enjoying these games... "They're simple... easy... you don't have to LEARN how to play a game with a dozen complex controls... you can play them for 10 minutes or for 2 hours". I know that is why my daughter likes them. I doubt these old games are ever going to appeal much to the "Sweet spot" demographic of say, 10-25 year old males... but the industry has been looking for a way to suck in the 2-8 year old and FEMALE demographic for ages... and I think Atari has it, and just doesn't know it or realize how to market it yet. This is it. Market the nostalgia (Remember the games you used to play with Dad?) market the simplicity (Games that you can sit down and play in 5 minutes, but will be challenging for hours) and keep them inexpensive (cheap thrills for your family... be the most popular mom in the neighborhood). And then deliver the hardware that delivers these promises.

So the formula Atari faces is complex. They need to keep it simple enough that it offers easy, accessible, enjoyable games for my wife... for my 4 year old kid... but make it feature rich enough to make a techie guy like me *lust* for it... while also making it land at a price point that makes sense compared to today's super-consoles. A $100 Atari based on 25 year old + technology isn't going to be able to compete with the XBox or PS2...

A CURRENT generation console that had backwards compatability with the 7800 and 2600 but would also play MODERN Atari games and competed directly with the 360 might be one way to go, eventually... Of course, if Enter The Matrix and Trans World Surf are any indication... they would want to get third party support for their modern library.

Another problem they face is that they did SO well with the FB2, and it was such an exponential improvement over the FB1... that they may have set expectations too high for the FB3. Everyone is going to expect another quantum jump. If it is more of an evolutionary thing... I can already see examples here of where they might get NEGATIVE feedback... even if it is a significant improvement. Which would be a shame... a lot of negative reviews and whining and moaning from the retro-community could turn Atari off to these projects.

I think they're at the point where they step off the edge. The FB1 was a turkey... but it had respectable sales anyhow and was proof of concept that this market was out there... which got us to the FB2... which is, despite complaints, an EXCELLENT product at an incredible price-point. The next step is into uncharted area. An Atari 800 FB, or an Atari 5200 FB, or a 7800FB... they all appeal MOSTLY to a niche market. Middle Aged UberTech nerds and Collector Nerds are the target. But they *need* Toys R Us and WalMart mass appeal for these things to be successful. After the 2600... this becomes tougher to accomplish. I don't think it is impossible, and it sounds like whatever path they are on, they're already pretty far along it, so we'll just have to hope Atari has thought it all through.

I know this is kind of long... but I've thought about this quite a bit... and I'm *really* excited that my wife and kid are into this too. I see that as the *critical* part of this post, from Atari's perspective. Getting an entire FAMILY involved and excited... especially *female* gamers... is a road into incredible profits and market success. They don't need to really CHANGE their focus to ACTIVELY encourage female gamers... but they DO need to make sure they're not ignoring this market (How about a FB2 ad in Redbook or Parenting Magazine, for example?) I guess what I mean is, throwing in a Care Bears or Strawberry Shortcake title on the included carts would be fine... but you don't want to include a bunch of girly or kiddie games that alienates the uberNerd core market. You just want to nudge and encourage a more diverse market at the same time... however you can.

And if there is a shakeout, my guess it will be Jakks and the other guys who get shaken out. The guys who are doing it right will survive.

MaDDuck · February 6, 2006

I was torn between the two. I would love to see an 800 computer but I went for the 5200 combo for the simple reason the 5200 never made it to these distant shores and I would love to be able to see whether it was as bad or good as everyone made it out to be

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Excellent point!

Picture a 5200ish clone WITH....

Self centering analog joysticks that are plug compat. with the real 5200!

Edited February 6, 2006 by MaDDuck

Almost Rice · February 6, 2006

XEGS with 1Meg of ram and at least the traces for a SIO2PC. If that thing gets made, I alone will probably buy 2-4 systems.

If they can make it with a 65C816 cpu or at least allow for adding one of your own, I would be all over it. :lust: Knowing Curt, we can expect a little something extra. Remember, this is a what you would want in a FB3 tread so no poo pooing my dreams

Edited February 6, 2006 by Almost Rice

Paranoid · February 6, 2006

Excellent point!

Picture a 5200ish clone WITH....

Self centering analog joysticks that are plug compat. with the real 5200!

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I'm wondering how feasible it would be to do Atari 5200 joysticks and keep the costs down. I also think there would be challenges with any design modification to the original stick... because so many games were coded to work AROUND the flaws in that design. Games like Centipede and Galaxian might not work right with a self-centering stick... so you would have to make a stick that you could select self-centering or "traditional". That sounds like a design challenge that would drive costs up, drive reliability down, and might result in a stick that tried to be both things and really achieved neither.

I'd *love* to see it done, though... especially at FB2 prices!

guitarmas · February 11, 2006

I want it to be something I **ckin find worth paying for.

Shawn · February 11, 2006

With all the current talk about Atari going under agian I just want the FB3 not to end up vaporware.

atwwong · February 12, 2006

So how about the choice "I want the FB3 to be a reality"? :ponder: :sad:

gobo · February 14, 2006

Hi

I think a 64K Atari 8bit would be the best choice. Maybe an Atari400 Replica since a keyboard would be cheap. The 8-bit has by far the best choice of games. It would be cool if they would include Atari Basic (maybe Basic XL or Advan Basic) with some way to save your creations (Flash mem). I think it would be a really cool marketing feature to be able to program your own games just like the old days. Maybe some way to add an external USB keyboard. Cost is going up as I speak

gobo · February 14, 2006

Also PADDLES and a warlords type game!!

bigdcaldavis2k · February 17, 2006

I want the FB3 to be a either :

a 2600/5200/7800 with two cartridge slots (one Atari 5200 cart slot and one Atari 7800/2600 cart slot)

or

a full-size replice of the 4-switch non-Vader 2600 with cart slot (and composite STEREO, not mono, A/V cords)

dark willow · February 19, 2006

I'd really want just a new 7800 really, with original design cart slot, two DECENT controllers, AV leads (not rf!), full 2600 compatability (like the real thing) and the truly best games included.

I'd also like to see Atari release some multi-game carts of the classic games (not just their own either) both 2600 and 7800. Selling the system base for around $40 - to $50 (with say 15 or 20 games) and multigame carts for around $10 with around 4 or 5 games on them.

jediknight0 · March 28, 2006

What do I want the FB3 to be? AVAILABLE

Cheap shot, but it felt good...

Cador · March 30, 2006

How about making FB3 to be like FB2 except that it has games that primarily use paddle controllers (and said controllers are included, of course)? That would give a reason to FB2 owners to get the FB3.

My main motivation for getting the FB2 was because I needed extra joysticks for my real Atari 2600.

AtticGamer · April 2, 2006

A Mini Atari 400 with 2 joysticks and CF card slot for game collection expansion or a Mini 5200/Atari Lynx with a CF card slot. Also, a Mini Atari 2600 Jr. with CF card slot would be nice. :lust:

Edited April 2, 2006 by Atari_kid

AussieAtari · April 2, 2006

How about a fully configured 5200/7800 unit with a "greatest hits" package of in-built games (could use Atari Age forum to help decide which games rather than Atari ending up giving us something useless like those in the FB1) with 2 external cartridge ports to actually acknowledge and embrace the retro community and the fact that a lot of people still have carts. Also, with 5200 and 7800 joysticks and paddles.

It would cost a bit more but would then be the retro hardware equivalent of the Revolution.

How cool would it be to replicate the original pack in games of the 2600, 5200 & 7800 as the FB3 pack ins!

frogstar_robot · April 6, 2006

How about a fully configured 5200/7800 unit with a "greatest hits" package of in-built games (could use Atari Age forum to help decide which games rather than Atari ending up giving us something useless like those in the FB1) with 2 external cartridge ports to actually acknowledge and embrace the retro community and the fact that a lot of people still have carts. Also, with 5200 and 7800 joysticks and paddles.

It would cost a bit more but would then be the retro hardware equivalent of the Revolution.

How cool would it be to replicate the original pack in games of the 2600, 5200 & 7800 as the FB3 pack ins!

The 7800 and A8/5200 have completely different chipsets apart from the 6502 and (optional) Pokey. Such a combined system would have to support at least ANTIC, GTIA, POKEY, TIA, and MARIA with lotsa glue logic to switch and co-ordinate all of this. I don't get the impression that the FB3 project is getting a lot of nickels from Atarigrames assuming the project is still underway at all.

I think a more likely FB3 is a straight up A8 architecture branded as a 5200 nostalgia piece. Most or all of the 5200 library has already been ported to the A8 and that takes care of the analog sticks and the grotty workarounds employed to get around the shortcomings of same in the 5200. I think it likely the PIA and Atari BASIC would be left out of the design. A little glue logic could be used to make the rest of the A8 happy. This essentially gives you the 5200 guts "wired up" as an A8. A few A8 gems that didn't come to the 5200 could be tossed in as well.

This necessarily wouldn't be what I would WANT out of an FB3 but if I were going to build a 5200 nostalgia piece without the problems then that is how I would go about it.

Laner · April 10, 2006

How about making FB3 to be like FB2 except that it has games that primarily use paddle controllers (and said controllers are included, of course)? That would give a reason to FB2 owners to get the FB3.

My main motivation for getting the FB2 was because I needed extra joysticks for my real Atari 2600.

The Jakks Atari Paddle already covered that territory fairly well. The emulation is excellent, and the only game that's really missing is Kaboom (due to being an Activision title).

TrekkiELO · April 11, 2006

The Jakks Atari Paddle already covered that territory fairly well. The emulation is excellent, and the only game that's really missing is Kaboom (due to being an Activision title).

True enough, but I find it interesting that Jakk's Pacific, who also had rights to 10 other Activision titles, apparently did not even try for Kaboom!, one of the most famous Atari Paddle games and if so, why would they give them such a hard time?

Signed,

Rick Vendl II

Edited April 11, 2006 by TrekkiELO

Zonie · April 25, 2006

How about a fully configured 5200/7800 unit with a "greatest hits" package of in-built games (could use Atari Age forum to help decide which games rather than Atari ending up giving us something useless like those in the FB1) with 2 external cartridge ports to actually acknowledge and embrace the retro community and the fact that a lot of people still have carts. Also, with 5200 and 7800 joysticks and paddles.

It would cost a bit more but would then be the retro hardware equivalent of the Revolution.

How cool would it be to replicate the original pack in games of the 2600, 5200 & 7800 as the FB3 pack ins!

Oh joy...

Combat, 5200 super breakout, and pole position II.

OK the PPII is OK.

AussieAtari · April 25, 2006

Oh yes, I'd forgotten about Combat as the original pack in for the 2600, I was thinking Space Invaders.

Super breakout.................surely the old day equal to Tetris (lol).

gorf68 · June 9, 2006

How about 400/800 with support for disk drives and tape input?

JamesD · August 25, 2006

I think a more likely FB3 is a straight up A8 architecture branded as a 5200 nostalgia piece. Most or all of the 5200 library has already been ported to the A8 and that takes care of the analog sticks and the grotty workarounds employed to get around the shortcomings of same in the 5200. I think it likely the PIA and Atari BASIC would be left out of the design. A little glue logic could be used to make the rest of the A8 happy. This essentially gives you the 5200 guts "wired up" as an A8. A few A8 gems that didn't come to the 5200 could be tossed in as well.

If things like BASIC were left out I'd want to be able to reflash the thing to add it back in.

The funny thing about the C64 DTV was that the manufacturer didn't want the hacker add ins like keyboard or drive i/o pins but they are getting a lot of additional sales because of it. The additional sales would more than make up for any cost difference.

If what I'm seeing in the C64 DTV community is any indicator of what to expect, a blitter and a 256 color graphics mode would really be worth adding. I found VHDL or Verilog source for a blitter over a year ago and 256 colors would probably be easier to implement than the original graphics modes of the Atari. Add 1 or 2 DMA driven D/A audio channels and suddenly you have a whole new world of possible game upgrades.

The important point is, those features wouldn't take a long time to add but would be a big draw for Atari 8bit computer fans. People can't say "I already have that" like they can with a strait Atari 800 clone.

Even without stuff like that I think it would be a hit if they included decent games.

JamesD · August 29, 2006

Looks like hacking the C64 DTV was such a hit that the new ones with have built in download capability.

"Commodore International Corporation develops and delivers a wide range of game products and services through Commodore Gaming, its strategic partnership with The Content Factory. Products due for release soon include a new generation of the Commodore 64 joystick, which adds game download functionality to the features that made its predecessor (C64 Direct to TV) famous (direct connectability to TV and PC). Other products in the pipeline include game consoles for use with mobile phones."

I home the flashback people take a hint.

tAK · November 1, 2006

personally, id love to see an XE system.. complete with Atari basic built in..

perhaps some of the more "well known" games built in aswell. (defineately pitfall or ball blazer as one of them)

as for the ability to add catridges.. no matter WHAT system they go with, this is a must.. its one thing to make a system with some built in games, but this is something with limmited life span

as someone already stated, i wouldnt expect to get a keyboard, however a PS2 hookup for a new keyboard wouldnt go astray, defineately needs to have controller ports.. with backwards compatible controllers of some kind.. and support the same carts that the XE did.

only non original feature that would be nice is either an SD card reader or a USB port for Flash drives.. so that we can add homebrew rom files onto those, and fire them up, or save the applications that we create in atari basic.

and if i had a dream come true? they would re-produce each system, and make a "stacker" slot int he bottom and top of each.. with a covering on it.. you could then purchase every system, stack them up, and add an adapter to the top, which supporst the different cart standards (this comapny would also include other great consoles.. NES/SNES/N64 SEGA MS/GENESIS and so on) and have cart slots in the top for all of them.. the final unit looking something like a home stereo(or PC tower).. with power buttons on from of each one, simple place the cart into the top of the unit..and fire up its respective console...

all or ANY new console should also have a VGA / DVI out along with its RCAs.. so that it can be connected easily to a PC monitor for use.. as they can be gotten cheap.. and can be used without interferring with the tv.