Ideas for a better Donkey Kong port - ColecoVision

[opcode]

Hi there,

 

I was reading this thread about Donkey Kong ports for classic system and that reminded me about my long shelved plans to port DK for the ColecoVision. Well, since I didn't have anything better to do, I spent most of the day thinking about it and created a few mockup screens.

Platforms and ladders were created using background graphics, no big deal here. DK and Pauline use both bg graphics and sprites. Pauline requires a single sprite, while DK needs 2 stacked sprites, so the result is just a sprite per scanline.

Of course I am using a lot of sprites, so I would need a good sprite driver in order to keep everything flicking efficiently (the CV is just able to display 4 sprites per scanline).

 

I am having a hard time trying to decide which layout for the score area would look better. I created 3 versions, a based on the NES version, and two others which are more arcade like (or so I think). I would appreciate some input here, so please let me know which version you like the most.

I am also including a screen mockup for the Conveyor Belts level. Hope to complete the other two level mockups tomorrow.

 

Eduardo

Edited October 16, 2005 by opcode

[+Trebor]

Hi Eduardo,

 

I believe the third probably looks the most "Arcade-like" based. And, I do believe you are leaning towards the third, as your only one mock-up for the pie/cement level has that layout. However, I like the second better because the timer information doesn't drop so low into the game-field area. So my preference is #1 for the second layout, #2 for the third layout, and #3 for the first layout.

 

I must say, I was quite surprised to see none of the three options with the correct arcade aspect-ratio (Vertical layout). One of the major solid features I loved with your 'Pac-Man Collection' was retaining that very feature. BTW, in that thread my favorite port (C64 Ocean) is so because one of the major pros is the attention to keeping the port vertical, rather than horizontally streteched to fit the screen.

 

In any event, vertical or horizontally layout, I'm sure your port will be a winner

 

Okay, just one last note on the horizontal/vertical layout. I really believe the gameplay is affected - not so much on the barrels, pie/cement factor, or elevator levels but - on the rivets screen. Another reason why the vertical layout is the way to go.

 

-Trebor

 

P.S. I know the images for Space Invaders is available (To play in emulators). Have you released the images for the complete version of 'Pac-Man Collection' (Not just a demo)?

Edited October 16, 2005 by Trebor

[birdie3]

Invent new levels. Maybe even add a boss level and worlds. Add something new to the original game while enhancing the graphics to be more true to the arcade version. I think the concept of DK is great. A new version of the game with more challenging levels would be a much welcomed addition to the game. Perhaps a side scrolling level or something like in many early Famicom games (ie: Bomberman, Lode Runner, Goonies) where the screen moves with the player in a horizontal direction.

 

Eduardo's thinking "Yeah right buddy..".

[opcode]

I believe the third probably looks the most "Arcade-like" based.  And, I do believe you are leaning towards the third, as your only one mock-up for the pie/cement level has that layout.

 

Smart guy!

 

However, I like the second better because the timer information doesn't drop so low into the game-field area.  So my preference is #1 for the second layout, #2 for the third layout, and #3 for the first layout.

 

My wife thinks the same... So how about the new layout bellow? I replaced Level with Lives so the later is closer to the current player score...

 

I must say, I was quite surprised to see none of the three options with the correct arcade aspect-ratio (Vertical layout).  One of the major solid features I loved with your 'Pac-Man Collection' was retaining that very feature. BTW, in that thread my favorite port (C64 Ocean) is so because one of the major pros is the attention to keeping the port vertical, rather than horizontally streteched to fit the screen.

 

I see... Well, I would love to do that, but unfortunately the CV has its graphic limitations. It isn't easy to scale down things cause one of the biggest CV's graphic shortcomes is the way it handles colors. With Pac-Man it was easy since the maze is plain blue, but DK has fairly detailed graphics. Anyway, since I would be using actual arcade code, gameplay wouldn't be that different, though not so accurate as Pac-Man..

Actually, I just removed some lines of vertical resolution. Horizontal resolution is intact.

 

Okay, just one last note on the horizontal/vertical layout.  I really believe the gameplay is affected - not so much on the barrels, pie/cement factor, or elevator levels but - on the rivets screen.  Another reason why the vertical layout is the way to go.

 

You are right. I trying to figure out a good way to port the rivets screen. I hope to post some options here later today.

 

P.S.  I know the images for Space Invaders is available (To play in emulators).  Have you released the images for the complete version of 'Pac-Man Collection'

 

Not yet. In fact I haven't even released the game yet. But when I release the final image, you are going to need an emulator with MegaCart bank switch support (the final game is a little bit larger than 64KB) in order to play it...

 

Eduardo

[opcode]

Invent new levels. Maybe even add a boss level and worlds. Add something new to the original game while enhancing the graphics to be more true to the arcade version. I think the concept of DK is great. A new version of the game with more challenging levels would be a much welcomed addition to the game. Perhaps a side scrolling level or something like in many early Famicom games (ie: Bomberman, Lode Runner, Goonies) where the screen moves with the player in a horizontal direction.

 

Eduardo's thinking "Yeah right buddy..".

949217[/snapback]

 

Now that is a really great idea!

 

But in order to keep the original game spirit, I think we should keep it a fixed screen climber game.

 

I can see two options:

 

1) We could add new screens to the current DK 4 screen structure. Few screens, but fairly complex ones.

 

2) We could add a screen editor. Though it would result in not so complex screens, I can see several advantages here. First I would create a screen editor. So user would create new screens himself and save them in the MemoryPack. The final game would have several dozen different screens. I have seen such editors before, and each screen doesn't take more than a hundred bytes. However each individual screen should be constructed from predetermined elements and respect predefined rules. If we have a good number of screens, we could make Mario face DK in just a few of them. What do you think?

 

Eduardo

[opcode]

Screens 3 and 4...

[RangerG]

Those look great. The original black/white Donkey Kong game had many nice extra screens if you want some inspiration and those would be keeping withing the Donkey Kong legacy.

[+FujiSkunk]

Hey opcode, this looks great! I would be nice to see a Donkey Kong on the correct side of the screen for a change!

 

My vote goes to the second lay-out. It strikes me as the best compromise between keeping the arcade lay-out and fitting everything on screen. Personally I would still want the player's score in the upper left corner, since that's where I'm used to looking.

 

If you're worried about things looking cramped, you could remove the high score display altogether, or perhaps only show it between levels and/or lives.

[NightSprinter]

I'd have to say I'm quite impressed, Eduardo. You're doing rather well with all these conversions. I'd have to say the third also looks the most arcade-like in appearance.

 

RangerG, that would be "Donkey Kong '94" for the Gameboy/SuperGameboy actually. I don't think a lot of the levels would work if any at all, due to the fact that they used a LOT of horizontal and vertical scrolling. Because of this, the ColecoVision's current hardware could not be capable of doing such levels smoothly.

 

[Off-topic] Not to be a nuisance about this, Eduardo, but did you get my bug report about why the Pac-Man Collection demo had so much trouble?

[opcode]

[Off-topic] Not to be a nuisance about this, Eduardo, but did you get my bug report about why the Pac-Man Collection demo had so much trouble?

949552[/snapback]

 

If I remember it had something to do with your joystick, right?

 

Eduardo

[Cybergoth]

Hi there!

 

While these screenshots look indeed gorgeous, does nobody think the Coleco already had enough Donkey Kong games made? AFAIK it already has 4 different ones

 

Greetings,

Manuel

[opcode]

Those look great. The original black/white Donkey Kong game had many nice extra screens if you want some inspiration and those would be keeping withing the Donkey Kong legacy.

949492[/snapback]

 

To be honest I didn't like that version. That "find the key, open the door" scheme is too much cliche to my taste. I still think that if we add new screens, it should keep the "start in the bottom, reach the screen top" theme instead. Probably we should add a few elements to keep things interesting, like... I don't know, elevator switches (to invert elevators direction), or maybe a hoist.... Perhaps new tools...

 

Eduardo

[opcode]

While these screenshots look indeed gorgeous, does nobody think the Coleco already had enough Donkey Kong games made? AFAIK it already has 4 different ones

949619[/snapback]

 

4? I can just remember 2 right now...

Edited October 17, 2005 by opcode

[+Trebor]

My wife thinks the same... So how about the new layout bellow? I replaced Level with Lives so the later is closer to the current player score...

 

Your wife has great taste, indeed. I like the new layout. It's a keeper

 

I see... Well, I would love to do that, but unfortunately the CV has its graphic limitations. It isn't easy to scale down things cause one of the biggest CV's graphic shortcomes is the way it handles colors. With Pac-Man it was easy since the maze is plain blue, but DK has fairly detailed graphics. Anyway, since I would be using actual arcade code, gameplay wouldn't be that different, though not so accurate as Pac-Man...

 

No big deal. I appreciate the explanation. I must admit, those screenshots *do* look close to arcade perfect, nonetheless

 

You are right. I trying to figure out a good way to port the rivets screen. I hope to post some options here later today.

 

Excellent. I'm glad to heat that. In fact, the screenshots already tell the tale. I'm loving it already!

 

Not yet. In fact I haven't even released the game yet. But when I release the final image, you are going to need an emulator with MegaCart bank switch support (the final game is a little bit larger than 64KB) in order to play it...

 

Ahhh, a challenge to Emu author's out there. I wonder who will support it first? Does any emu support it, yet?

 

In any event, as a final note, my humble 2 cents is the "extra"/"additional" levels - outside of the arcade orginal four - should take a back seat to first adding all the intermissions/animations and changing ending tunes played at the end/defeat of the rivet screen. Again, just my humble 2 cents.

 

-Trebor

Edited October 17, 2005 by Trebor

[+Trebor]

While these screenshots look indeed gorgeous, does nobody think the Coleco already had enough Donkey Kong games made? AFAIK it already has 4 different ones

949619[/snapback]

 

4? I can just remember 2 right now...

949621[/snapback]

 

Yes, there are two different versions. The original which I believe came in two different cart memory sizes - I believe a 16Kb version and a 24Kb version. However, no change in gameplay despite the cart size difference.

 

Then there is 'Super DK!". Basically, a hacked version of the above which adds the cement/pie factory level - incompleted, no 'challenge' and a "Donkey Kong Jr." looking Donkey Kong placed in the level. Additionally, it added *some* of the intermission/animation sequences (However, poorly/choppy done).

 

I am looking *very* forward to this port. Even more so than the 'Pac-Man Collection'. Donkey Kong is probably my favorite arcade games from the classic era. I would love to see it receive the "Opcode" touch.

 

-Trebor

Edited October 17, 2005 by Trebor

[Cybergoth]

Hi there!

 

Donkey Kong is probably my favorite arcade games from the classic era.  I would love to see it receive the "Opcode" touch.

 

It would be interesting for sure. There's just so many other cool games out there that are not available for the Coleco at all

 

In the other post I meant of course the 2 normal DK/Jr games and the 2 super versions. Are you sure that they're hacks? I thought they just ported the Adam versions?

 

Greetings,

Manuel

[+Trebor]

I can see two options:

 

1) We could add new screens to the current DK 4 screen structure. Few screens, but fairly complex ones.

 

2) We could add a screen editor. Though it would result in not so complex screens, I can see several advantages here. First I would create a screen editor. So user would create new screens himself and save them in the MemoryPack. The final game would have several dozen different screens. I have seen such editors before, and each screen doesn't  take more than a hundred bytes. However each individual screen should be constructed from predetermined elements and respect predefined rules. If we have a good number of screens, we could make Mario face DK in just a few of them. What do you think?

 

Sorry, for the multiple posts - More things come to me as I (excitedly) look this thread over. When/if you do choose to add "extra" - I do like option 1. For some ideas you can try/play Crazy Kong in MAME (If you do not recall or ever played it in the Arcades).

 

Additionally, before arcade emulation took off, a small company known as ChampGames really created some fantastic Arcade Game Ports for the PC. They used basically the same notion of first trying to replicate the Arcade Original and then a "Champ" version (Which they really did a good job in both regards). The company is long defunct, and ChampGames have giving permission (By the author/founder) for their games to be freely distributed. See their Donkey Kong (Champ Kong) game here:

 

http://www.champ-em.com/kong.htm

 

-Trebor

[Cybergoth]

Hi there!

 

The company is long defunct, and ChampGames have giving permission (By the author/founder) for their games to be freely distributed.

 

JohnnyWC is a member of these forums here BTW

 

Greetings,

Manuel

[+Trebor]

In the other post I meant of course the 2 normal DK/Jr games and the 2 super versions. Are you sure that they're hacks? I thought they just ported the Adam versions?

 

It depends which version you are talking about. The 16KB version is both for ColecoVision and Adam. The 24Kb was 'originally' designed for the Adam - but no additions were added to it due to time constraints to get the system 'out the door' (Plus, if I recall correctly, there were left over carts - or something to the affect). Both versions work in an actual Colecovision fine.

 

The Super DK! which is "Colecovision friendly" is just a hacked-up version of original Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr (The Donkey Kong used on the Pie/Cement Level), and *some* of the official/full version of Super DK! which was released on the Adam. Some of the details concerning this port are provided here:

 

http://www.digitpress.com/reviews/superdonkeykong.htm

 

There *is* a full/complete Super DK! which was released for the Coleco Adam and does not work on a ColecoVision. That port is not widely distributed or easily available on the net and took me a *long* time to obtain a copy. Sadly, I cannot get it to play on any Adam Emulator (Like there's a lot of those..lol).

 

What *really* adds to the confusion is the fact that the 24Kb version or/and the "hacked" version is often referred to and referenced as the "Adam" version. That is true to a degree for the 24Kb version of the orginal Donkey Kong. However, the Super DK! version which many people have obtained or is easy to download and find is *not* an official Adam or ColecoVision release. It is a ROM/Game Hack.

 

Donkey Kong Jr. is another story. The Super DK Jr. which is available and playable on a ColecoVision emulator is more complete and polished that it's Super DK! counterpart. Nonetheless, it too is a *hack*. It is a scaled down version of the *real* Super DK Jr. which was released on the Adam. Again, incorrectly many sites/tools list the 'hack' version as the Adam Version. This is wrong. There is an official/complete Super DK Jr. for the Adam, which like Super DK! for the Adam is not easily obtainable or downloadable on the net.

 

Both official versions for the Adam took me *years* to obtain, and I cannot run them under any currect Adam Emulators. I believe it has in part to do with the disk images not being the "standard" or "acceptable" sizes in the emulators for the Adam which are available. I have to check again (I'm a work now).

 

However, I believe they are the "raw" *.dsk images (Disk Images). I never had the pleasure of actually playing these version on the Adam - nor did I own the computer at it's release. Nonetheless, you can find the official/full/retail versions of Super DK! and Super Donkey Kong Jr. I do have the link saved on my personal computer at home.

 

I believe the misinformation and mislabelling of the Donkey Kong (Jr) ports are due to:

 

1. Many Colecovision titles on the carts are labelled for the ColecoVision and ADAM computer.

 

2. The fact that they *do* play on a real Coleco Adam.

 

Nonetheless, the actual Super DK! and Super DK Jr games/roms for the ColecoVision are hacks. Not the complete or intended ports for the Adam computer.

 

I hope this clear things up

 

-Trebor

[birdie3]

Those look great. The original black/white Donkey Kong game had many nice extra screens if you want some inspiration and those would be keeping withing the Donkey Kong legacy.

949492[/snapback]

 

 

Where can I find the original black and white version? Just curious.

[birdie3]

I think that additional levels and all of the intermissions would be excellent features for an optimized DK. A level editior would be cool too. What might be better (and easier to incorporate) would be the chance to select pre-determined levels. For example:

 

Easy - enhanced DK as we know it with a little less of the challenge

 

Medium - DK as we know it but enhanced with the pie factory board

 

Difficult - medium DK with 2 or 3 lost (new) levels

 

Master Mario - enhanced difficult DK with a few new challenges and surprizes like a boss level or an ending

 

I don't know how much you could fit into one cartridge.

[Cybergoth]

Hi there!

 

Those look great. The original black/white Donkey Kong game had many nice extra screens if you want some inspiration and those would be keeping withing the Donkey Kong legacy.

Where can I find the original black and white version? Just curious.

 

Hm... I thought the GB version was meant. They recently remade it for the GBA as "Mario vs. Donkey Kong".

 

Greetings,

Manuel

[RangerG]

Yes - I was referring to the Gameboy (original model) Donkey Kong game.

[opcode]

Hi!

 

Thanks for the many feedbacks. I want to start programming the game today and hope to post something tonight.

In the meantime you can start downloading my custom MESS version (http://www.opcodegames.com/download/mess.zip) which has MemoryPack support (not complete support yet, but enough to run games). Bellow is my real world working MP prototype. Not the final design, of course, but it is functional nevertheless...

 

I really want to work on a DK screen editor. But first we need to define which elements the game will allow. It is like an electronic Lego, you will get a set of standard pieces, then will be free to start assembling anything your imagination can come up with. So in the end I could include dozens different screen, using a common game engine (which doesn't need to be the same as the arcade port). And each screen would take like just a few dozen bytes to describe.

To start, I propose two very basic elements: platforms (in 3 flavors) and ladders. Platforms are comprised of platforms blocks, which are 8x8 pixels in size. Such blocks can be freely positioned vertically, but horizontally it needs to start on multiple of 8 coordinates. Ladders also need to start on multiple of 8 horizontal coordinates. Vertically it needs to start on or under a platform block (going up or down) and ends when it reaches another platform block or on a multiple of 8 vertical coordinate. Did you get it?

What else?

[Cybergoth]

Hi there!

 

I really want to work on a DK screen editor. But first we need to define which elements the game will allow. It is like an electronic Lego, you will get a set of standard pieces, then will be free to start assembling anything your imagination can come up with. So in the end I could include dozens different screen, using a common game engine (which doesn't need to be the same as the arcade port).

 

What would be cool, is when the editor would allow all elements from Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr and eventually Donkey Kong 3. Then you could have all three games combined in a superset game frame, plus lotsa new/custom levels

 

Greetings,

Manuel