What drives you?

[jbanes]

Since this is bound to be an emotionally charged question, allow me to present a few credentials before I ask it.

 

/ME holds hands up in the air as I step closer and carefully deposit two links on the ground.

 

Java Games in 4K

Gaming Console (Work in Progress)

 

Now that I've (hopefully) established that I am also a classic gaming developer of sorts with a vested interest in the answer, I'd like to ask you guys what drives you to create new games for the Atari 2600?

 

"Riding the beam" was always a pain, and the actual hardware hasn't been produced in well over a decade. At the same time, there are plenty of hardware devices still being produced that can offer the same challenges in design as the 2600 did. For example, I myself have participated in the Java 4K contest because I truly enjoy the challenge of trying to fit a fun game into 4K. Yet at the same time, the work I and others are doing also pushes the state of software technology with inventions like SuperPackME (a technology that has uses on Cell Phones and other embedded platforms).

 

So is developing for the Atari just nastolgia, or does it run deeper than that? Does that interest potentially extend to developing games on a new platform that isn't running the $300/console rat race? Or is there something specific about the Atari that holds your interest over other consoles?

 

Just to give a little background, I recently bumped into this site via Google, and I can't help but be impressed by the sheer size of the development community. I wouldn't have expected to find such a huge following for hardware that can be so difficult to obtain. I'm not against the idea of homebrewing these carts, just exceedingly curious as to the feelings and drives behind them.

 

Thank you in advance for your answers. I'm sure they'll be very interesting. :-)

 

P.S. Kudos on the Thrust cart! That was one of my favorite games in the earlier days of Linux. It's really too bad it didn't make it into the FB2.

 

Edit: It occurs to me that I should have used the term "Racing the beam" rather than "riding the beam". I've heard both applied (though for some odd reason the latter seems to stick with me more; must be too much Tron ), but "racing" is probably more correct.

Edited November 16, 2005 by jbanes

[vdub_bobby]

Almost the exact same question was recently discussed here: http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=76645

 

And...

I wouldn't have expected to find such a huge following for hardware that can be so difficult to obtain.

Say what? It ain't hard to find a VCS.

[jbanes]

Almost the exact same question was recently discussed here: http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=76645

 

Thanks for that. I have been lurking the forums for a few days trying to find if someone else had asked my same question, but didn't find it. I'm currently reading the thread beginning to end.

 

I wouldn't have expected to find such a huge following for hardware that can be so difficult to obtain.

Say what? It ain't hard to find a VCS.

966644[/snapback]

 

Perhaps I should have phrased that a bit better. Just like the NES, there are plenty of used VCSes lying around in various states of disrepair. Some are in excellent condition, others need work or are missing parts. (e.g. A missing power block is the reason why my old Nintendo sits in the closet.) At the end of the day, however, your average person is never going to have an opportunity to play some of these games without explicitly seeking out the old hardware to play them. Being that most game developers create games for others to enjoy, the 2600 severely limits the market to enthusiasts. Again, this is not a bad thing, just a very interesting choice.

[djmips]

Reasons.

 

Nostalgia - I wanted to make 2600 games when I was 10, and now I can. I love coding again in 6502 like I first did back in 1979 but armed with more knowledge.

 

Whimsey - An odd pleasure of making something for no reason that most people cannot fathom.

 

Cool factor - Strangely, one attains a sheen of uber cool amongst geek/programmer friends

 

Discovery - As mentioned elsewhere, there are still unexplored regions in the 2600 programming landscape.

 

Obsession - Unexplainable.

[kisrael]

To quote my 2600 101 Programming Intro:

 

So why do it? There are a number of reasons:

    * To connect in a fundamental way with the grandmaster of our misspent childhoods.

    * The challenge of it all. Like writing haiku while drunk and on the back of a charging rhino.

    * Actually, I hate challenges, but there's something cool about making a game out of such simple little pieces, kind of like Legos when they were all square, with maybe a few wheel pieces thrown in.

    * To interact with something you made on a real live TV.

    * The chicks.

    * Ok, I'm kidding about the chicks.

    * Why not program for other, more modern consoles? Despite (or because of) the difficulty of the 2600, there is a community and set of resources for it that I haven't seen for other systems you could potentially homebrew for. (YMMV)

    * Why not just make games for Windows, in VB? Or a more powerful language? Or online, in Shockwave or Flash or Java? Yeah, go on, cry to mama you little wuss! But seriously: most successful modern games are big budget productions done by teams of people. Your program is likely to languish in shareware/freeware hell, ignored by millions, and competing for attention with thousands and thousands of other little games. Make a decent classic game, and you will get a lot of attention from the classic game collectors and their friends. You can even sell copies at shows like CVGE and PhillyClassic, and be duly admired in cash form. (If you work out the hourly rate for your programming efforts, you'd probably be better off flipping burgers, but that's not the point.)

I think most of that still applies to varying degrees.

[jbanes]

Djmips and kisrael, thank you for your responses. They're most insightful.

 

So from what I'm hearing, the biggest pull to developing the Atari is the challenge in programming it despite its natural limitations. (As opposed to the 4K gaming I've been doing which has artificially imposed constraints.) From this challenge stems a strong sense of achievement, especially when others recognize your hard work.

 

The one thing I guess I'm still looking for to understand is: Do you think that your desire for a challenging would extend to other platforms? i.e. The Atari has long been a target because its hardware has been deciphered and is not protected in any special fashion. (As opposed to the NES which has patents, copyrights, trademarks, and trade secrets standing in the way of creating new games.) As a bonus, the platform was also a very popular one, thus making the hardware easy for enthusiasts to come by. What if Atari made a new console today, but with new challenges and the promise of actually being able to sell your games to the general populace? Would you jump on the opportunity?

 

Taking the JGC console as an example of such a console (my pet project, and part of the reason I'm so curious about this question), I envisioned it to handle games ranging from 4KB to 1MB in size, allowing the game producer to scale his costs with the size of the game he wishes to produce. The processor wouldn't be very fast at all (less than 100MHz), yet developers would have to drive high color graphics and stereo sound using the best tricks they can come up with. The prices would be low, and the limitations of the system would again allow single developers to create competitive, quality games. (Can you imagine that we can shrink the carts of yesterday into simple credit cards of today?)

 

Now I know that Java developers would jump at the challenge just because Java developers have something to prove. (Even if they've proven it 50 times over.) But what of you all? Putting aside the Java element, does the challenge sound like one you'd want to meet? Or is it just not as interesting as the Atari?

[+batari]

There is a place in Oregon called "Train Mountain." It has something like 24 miles of track laid at 1/8 scale, where enthusiasts bring their homemade steam and diesel locomotives to ride on the track. Yes, these are adult men riding on tiny trains at 5 MPH through the forest. They look absolutely ridiculous, but they don't care - they love it. They spend a good chunk of income and countless hours building and maintaining these trains, only to take them out a few times a year.

 

I guess they are trying to recapture their youth, when they longed to be railroad engineers and ride the rail. Sure, some people think these train folks are nuts. And maybe some of them are.

 

Now, I don't give a rip about trains, but I do understand them.

 

Oh, and there is absolutely no shortage of working 2600's. They are mostly still working, being much more robust than your typical NES, and they can be had dirt cheap.

[kisrael]

For the record, Atari 2600 programming is a bit of an anomaly for me, in the sense of usually I'm pretty challenge-avoiding, not seeking. So it was a bit of a 'L33T' thing for me, which was cool, but besides that it was the other factor I mention.

 

Re: A Java game console. I dunno. Lately I've been thinking about how lame it is to have "Loading Java" screens on cellphones. Loading screens on any solid state memory based device are pretty lame, actually. Maybe a dedicated console could avoid some of that?

 

I've done a fair amount of tooling around in Java, http://kisrael.com/features/java/ - you should definately look and see if you can get along with "Processing", an attempt at bringing Java to the people (on the other hand it's a pretty heavy environment judging by some of the comments I've gotten from my programs)

[jbanes]

Re: A Java game console.  I dunno. Lately I've been thinking about how lame it is to have "Loading Java" screens on cellphones. Loading screens on any solid state memory based device are pretty lame, actually.  Maybe a dedicated console could avoid some of that?

967081[/snapback]

 

From the perspective of this question, the fact that it's Java is really irrelevant. If you poke through the console design, you'll note that the hardware is designed around Java code, as opposed to cell phones that need to load a separate JVM. So really, it works out to just a different type of machine code than most people are used to.

 

If you haven't already, perhaps you might spend some time tooling around the site to gain an understanding of where I'm coming from?

 

To give a quick rundown of the idea I've been pursuing, the idea is to create a new game console that doesn't compete in the current game console market. Instead, it goes above and beyond the TV Game "toy" market to deliver a brand new console for $25-$50 a unit. The unit itself is based on open standards (Java, USB, and Smart Cards) making it highly accessable to hobby coders.

 

Using Smart Cards for the software limits the available data sizes to 1MB maximum (with your average card being about 32K), but keeps costs low enough to offer the cards for $5-$15 a piece. The form factor is also appealing because it encourages the whole "collectable/tradable" mindset, especially since such cards can be manufactured with colorful artwork on the card itself. (Both front and back, BTW. There's no magnetic strip, just contacts. If you've ever seen those hotel key cards, that's what these are.)

 

Thus the end value proposition is:

 

- Low cost console targetting the toy market ($25-$50)

- Low cost games ($5-$15)

- Easy access for hobbyists

- Creates a market for more casual games

- Quick to produce games means large library in short order

- Cards are in an attractive form factor to kids

- Marketing can further focus on the "tradability" of games

 

Make sense?

 

Sorry, I didn't want to turn this into an advertisement. My specific ideas are my own. However, I do feel the market is lacking a real game console at the moment (in the traditional sense) and that someone needs to fill it. The only question is, who will create the games for the console when it's ready? (Regardless of who finally creates the console.) If you're given a new level of challenges, but of a familiar type, would the community be interested in embracing them?

 

I suppose it's a very difficult question to answer. A bit like, "if you like vanilla, do you think you'd like Chocolate if you tried it?" Thus a better way to state the question might be, "Would you be excited about a console that targets hobbyists?" Feel free to throw your own ideas out there about how you think such a console should be built. I'm just trying to get a feel for the communities feelings on such a beast.

[djmips]

If you can build it, sells millions, become iconic.

 

Fast forward 30 years. Then I'd be interested.

 

Otherwise, I can develop for the GBA.

 

I do give you that there might be a niche for a gaming device for the TV that's not a closed format system like Xbox, Playstation or Game Cube. It's a big marketing puzzle however.

 

I don't think that Java is a necessary ingredient for success.