What's next for Batari BASIC?

[+Random Terrain]

First of all, 50 people is a lot. I'd bet that most homebrew games don't sell many more than 50 copies. Maybe in the 50-100 range.

987673[/snapback]

Yeah, well that kind of proves our point. If you can't even sell more than a handful of homebrew games that have become semi-famous by being included in various collections, how will the AVox sell any better? If it's not built into a new Atari, it's a waste of time and a waste of the already limited space we have for our programs to support something that an insignificant number of people will ever own. If no emulator emulates the AVox, how could we test it? We have to constantly bother people who own one? As I say below, I am not ordering batari to ignore the AVox, I'm just putting my vote in that it is too early. There are so many other things, cooler things, more useful things on most bB user's wish lists.

 

The day Stella can emulate it, I'll be one of the first to want to try it out, but until then the AVox barely registers on my radar screen.

 

 

Finally, lay off the sarcasm.  What's the point?

987673[/snapback]

If you are talking about me, my sarcasm was stirred up because of Richard H.'s comment and eyeroll as if I should know that he created the product. I don't remember ever reading a post by him before. He can't expect that everyone will know that he created it, especially when it's not even in his signature. I know more about the Tron Man and Cyplix cartridges than the AVox.

 

 

 

Batari, Richard, all the homebrew authors are doing what they love, and are kind enough to take suggestions from, and share with, everybody else.  And you give them a bunch of crap in return because they don't do what you want?  News flash: they don't work for you.

987673[/snapback]

batari doesn't go around expecting that everyone should know that he created batari Basic. He is also kind enough to have it in his signature so that people will know. Who was I giving crap to except for Richard H.? I didn't give him crap too hard did I? I hope he's not that brittle.

 

I'm not giving batari any crap. He created the language I have been asking for that many people said was impossible. I put my vote in for things every chance I get, but I don't think I have ever given him crap. I already said that it's batari's language, he can do what he wants, but the AVox is at the bottom of my list, at least until Stella can emulate it. When Stella can do that, more people will become interested and more people will buy the real product. How is putting my 'vote' in giving someone crap? It's my opinion, but I do not expect it to be followed like it is an order.

[potatohead]

Yeah, well that kind of proves our point. If you can't even sell more than a handful of homebrew games that have become semi-famous by being included in various collections, how will the AVox sell any better?

 

And the Devil's Advocate is gonna say:

 

Without that core group of 50 or so homebrew enthusists, there would be no scene to power this community that brings new tools, games and info each year...

 

 

 

If it's not built into a new Atari, it's a waste of time and a waste of the already limited space we have for our programs to support something that an insignificant number of people will ever own.

 

Not for those same people mentioned above. Again, without these core people doing what they do, there is a lot less to the community as a whole --even if most others never participate via ownership.

 

 

If no emulator emulates the AVox, how could we test it?

 

Build one like I'm gonna do. Sounds to me like it's four wires, a chip and some other minor bits.

 

We have to constantly bother people who own one?

 

One could always ignore developing for it you know.

 

I've no problem with your vote for other features first. Totally valid. However not only are you wanting things you will benefit from first, but are saying the AtariVOX stuff is a waste of time to boot! I just think that's bad form all things considered, that's all.

[+Random Terrain]

However not only are you wanting things you will benefit from first. . .

987902[/snapback]

The AtariVOX users aren't wanting what will benefit them first? Everyone can benefit from just about any other feature you can dream up. Only AtariVOX users benefit from AtariVOX support at this time. It seems more selfish to me.

 

 

 

. . . but are saying the AtariVOX stuff is a waste of time to boot!  I just think that's bad form all things considered, that's all.

987902[/snapback]

To be clear, you do know that I'm not saying that the AtariVOX itself is a waste of time, right? I'm just saying it seems like a waste of time to include support for it in bB at this time if hardly no one, including most bB users, are ever going to hear the result. The only way I'm going to use an AtariVOX is if someone gives me one or it is emulated.

[potatohead]

The AtariVOX users aren't wanting what will benefit them first? Everyone can benefit from just about any other feature you can dream up. Only AtariVOX users benefit from AtariVOX support at this time. It seems more selfish to me.

 

I just don't think it's a worry and you do, as if something you really want is gonna get shorted. (and it's just not) Maybe that's not what you had in mind, but it's the way it sounds. Honestly, that's as selfish as you clame AtariVOX support to be. (Just offering another point of view, so don't take that personal because I don't mean it that way.)

 

Of course, this is how these things go. The developers of open projects, like Bb, do what feeds their soul because that's often all the repayment they are gonna get. Best to encourage all development, unless you are a contributor to the project, IMHO. (Or you wanna pay for specific things at specific times)

 

 

To be clear, you do know that I'm not saying that the AtariVOX itself is a waste of time, right? I'm just saying it seems like a waste of time to include support for it in bB at this time if hardly no one, including most bB users, are ever going to hear the result. The only way I'm going to use an AtariVOX is if someone gives me one or it is emulated.

 

 

Too bad really. I'm going to build then buy when I can. Totally happy for the option too. Greater support for AtariVOX means more oppertunity to obtain one and actually enjoy it. Same goes for other interesting atari stuff. (Supercat's cool RAM cart to name one) Where you see one community, I see two. There are those working with the standard atari stuff. mostly emulation. The other community is more hardware focused.

 

Emulators are free, all you need is your computer. Hardware stuff costs a bit of money as does buying homebrew carts. For those of us who want to spend a little this coming year (and I do) these kinds of developments give us something to spend on.

 

You clearly are not a member of the hardware oriented crowd and that's just fine. However those of us that are, or will soon be, see these things differently. Look at it this way:

 

The atariage community as a whole is large. A few new members really does not matter much. Also most of them are not trying to develop anything, but are collecting, playing, etc...

 

The Bb community is small. A few new members really packs a punch in terms of what we all learn and do. The efforts of those few will bring others into the fold.

 

The hardware community is likely larger than the Bb community, particularly since both communities see overlap in that we are doing more than playing games. A new hardware owner/user/tinkerer is just as important as another Bb programmer.

 

We need other, frankly --if anyone is to have any real fun, which is exactly why I am here!

 

Finally we have the homebrew assembly community, which is probably just a bit larger than the hardware community alone. I'll bet a fair number of them have the AtariVOX as well. If they don't the Stratogems game is gonna change that.

 

All in all, we are talking about a few people in each group, except the largest group of basically non-contributors.

 

When viewed this way, AtariVOX support is fairly significant in that it correctly targets users from all of the groups here that are actually building things.

 

Is this more important than new Kernels or bankswitching in Bb? Probably not, but I think my point is clear that it's just not a waste of time either.

 

Given these observations, when is a good time for AtariVOX then? When everything else is done? That might be years actually. Evolving kernels and interfacing them with Bb is going to be as much of an art as anything else is. By contrast, once AtariVOX support is up and running, it's gonna be done and will likely be something that can be either included or not, so program space is not limited by it's being there.

 

(BTW, 4K of BB is a lot of code. Up to 32K appears to be on the way, meaning the small amount of machine address space necessary for AtariVOX support is going to be a non-issue)

 

Why put off the development of a feature that can likely be completed in one cycle in favor of others that might continue to evolve for a long time yet. Who knows, the greater synergy between folks of different interests here might yield some very interesting projects that might not otherwise happen or become moot if empowered to happen much later in time...

 

My point being it's ok to advocate your interests. Afterall, you are a Bb user and those are few and far between now. Just know you are not alone.

[+Random Terrain]

When I start making even more money with my web site, I will probably become one of the people who buys some things, especially if Atari brings out a new Flashback that can use cartridges. I don't want the few Atari's I have left to be modified so I can have a clearer picture. I'd rather buy a new Atari that comes with the right connectors for modern TVs.

[+batari]

I wouldn't worry about me spending too much time on Avox support. There are more important things on the agenda, like kernels (which I am still struggling with.) It's just when I get stuck on one of the harder things or I happen to be too tired for something difficult, I might look into the Avox a bit. Like last night, I was tired and was making stupid mistakes with adapting the multisprite kernel, so instead of screwing things up more, I skimmed the Speakjet manual and created a new test binary in about the same amount of time as it has taken me to write this message.

 

So someone (like Richard H.) please test this one.

avox.bas.bin

[Richard H.]

I'll test it this afternoon

 

 

This is what it outputs (I can definitely make out 'batari basic')

BB_AV.wav

Edited December 23, 2005 by Richard H.

[mos6507]

I think programmers should be allowed to write for whatever hardware they feel like supporting regardless of the number of users out there--without being heckled.

 

Also, it's not inconceivable that Batari Basic development could be shared across more than one developer as in any open-source project. Those who are chomping at the bit for feature x y or z may want to look into ways they can volunteer their time to help enhance the language themselves. That would be more productive than trying to dictate the order of features that get added to the language.

[+Random Terrain]

I think programmers should be allowed to write for whatever hardware they feel like supporting regardless of the number of users out there--without being heckled.

989162[/snapback]

Feel free to go back through this thread and tell me exactly when batari was heckled by anyone.

 

 

That would be more productive than trying to dictate the order of features that get added to the language.

989162[/snapback]

Do you see one post in this thread where anyone was issuing commands? There are all of these threads asking people what their preferences are, but some of you consider having preferences, opinions, and wish lists as barking orders. If you are going to get upset if people post their preferences, opinions, and wish lists, you will train people that it isn't worth the hassle to reply to any of these threads, so you will end up with zero feedback. Do you really want zero feedback or people posting what they think you want to hear? That does not sound productive to me.

 

There is the George W. Bush way where you only want yes men surrounding you and the Abraham Lincoln way where you want to hear all sides of every situation (good or bad). I go with the Abraham Lincoln way. Tell me what you really want, tell me what you really think. If I am working on something and you are going to lie to me or hold back your strong opinions on the task at hand, you are useless. You are not helping the project. You are not helping me to stay sharp. You weaken me.

[mos6507]

Feel free to go back through this thread and tell me exactly when batari was heckled by anyone.

 

Do you see one post in this thread where anyone was issuing commands?

 

Fred is the final judge, but while you claim not to be ordering him, to me, the tone here speaks for itself:

 

...If you can't even sell more than a handful of homebrew games that have become semi-famous by being included in various collections, how will the AVox sell any better? If it's not built into a new Atari, it's a waste of time and a waste of the already limited space we have for our programs to support something that an insignificant number of people will ever own. If no emulator emulates the AVox, how could we test it? We have to constantly bother people who own one? As I say below, I am not ordering batari to ignore the AVox, I'm just putting my vote in that it is too early. There are so many other things, cooler things, more useful things on most bB user's wish lists.

 

I'd say that goes beyond the subjective feedback you speak of.

[+Random Terrain]

Feel free to go back through this thread and tell me exactly when batari was heckled by anyone.

 

Do you see one post in this thread where anyone was issuing commands?

Fred is the final judge, but while you claim not to be ordering him, to me, the tone here speaks for itself:

 

...If you can't even sell more than a handful of homebrew games that have become semi-famous by being included in various collections, how will the AVox sell any better? If it's not built into a new Atari, it's a waste of time and a waste of the already limited space we have for our programs to support something that an insignificant number of people will ever own. If no emulator emulates the AVox, how could we test it? We have to constantly bother people who own one? As I say below, I am not ordering batari to ignore the AVox, I'm just putting my vote in that it is too early. There are so many other things, cooler things, more useful things on most bB user's wish lists.

I'd say that goes beyond the subjective feedback you speak of.

989302[/snapback]

Where is the 'order' in that quote? In what way does it go beyond? It's an opinion. The final decision belongs to batari as always. I appreciate everything batari has done and everything he will do whether it's in the exact order I would like or not.

 

As brittle as some of you are acting about two people's opinions in this thread, I'm surprised you get anything done. Instead of arguing about things that are only in your minds and not on the page, how about agreeing to disagree and move on? I'm not going to hold your hands and powder your bottoms every time I post something you may not agree with. I'm not going to start every post with the lame "in my humble opinion." That should be a given. Here's is my opinion, take it or leave it, but don't tell me I can't share it. If my posts are too upsetting for you, put me on ignore or ask Albert to ban me.

[mos6507]

Where is the 'order' in that quote? In what way does it go beyond? It's an opinion. The final decision belongs to batari as always.

 

It's one of those things where if you can't see it already there is no sense trying to point it out any plainer.

 

I think you've subsequently clarified things so the original quote really doesn't matter that much anymore.

 

I appreciate everything batari has done and everything he will do whether it's in the exact order I would like or not.

 

As for making money on your website, I also appreciate your BB tutorial website and you may recall that I made a generous PayPal donation to it.

Edited December 26, 2005 by mos6507

[+Random Terrain]

I also appreciate your BB tutorial website.  You may recall that I made a generous PayPal donation to it.

989315[/snapback]

Yep, and it was appreciated. Thanks again. (And to be clear, it is 99.5 percent batari's info on just one page that might expand into more pages as time goes on. SeaGtGruff is creating a real tutorial.)

[vdub_bobby]

I'm not going to start every post with the lame "in my humble opinion." That should be a given.

Well, plus it would be a flat-out lie. Maybe if you started off every post with, "In my egotistical opinion."

 

Seriously, your tone is that of a jerk, and being nitpicky with folks who get pissed about it ("Feel free to go back through this thread and tell me exactly when batari was heckled by anyone.") and telling them they are overly sensitive ("As brittle as some of you are acting...") are two completely common, absolutely classic annoying web board behaviors. The type of things you would never (or at least rarely, I hope ) say to someone to his face but feel free to type at anyone.

 

You made some reasonable points - why did you feel the need to load up your post with inflammatory language? It just weakened your point, distracted everybody from the content of your post, and sidetracked this thread.

 

When you tell someone that something he has done is a waste of time, a waste of space, and use the somewhat-loaded word "insignificant" to describe the number of people that you think would be positively affected by his work, how can you expect people to ignore the tone?

[+Random Terrain]

I'm not going to start every post with the lame "in my humble opinion." That should be a given.

Well, plus it would be a flat-out lie. Maybe if you started off every post with, "In my egotistical opinion."

 

Seriously, your tone is that of a jerk, and being nitpicky with folks who get pissed about it ("Feel free to go back through this thread and tell me exactly when batari was heckled by anyone.") and telling them they are overly sensitive ("As brittle as some of you are acting...") are two completely common, absolutely classic annoying web board behaviors. The type of things you would never (or at least rarely, I hope ) say to someone to his face but feel free to type at anyone.

989319[/snapback]

I'm not any different. I'm actually more offensive in person. And it seems to me that most people who say "in my humble opinion" are lying. Everyone thinks his version of the truth is correct. They think everyone else is mistaken. They think they and their families are the chosen people and that God has a special place for them in his heart. They hide all of that behind shallow niceties. This is way off topic though.

 

 

You made some reasonable points - why did you feel the need to load up your post with inflammatory language?  It just weakened your point, distracted everybody from the content of your post, and sidetracked this thread.

989319[/snapback]

The truth is often inflammatory. Most people are better at disguising it than I am. I don't have a secretary who can convert my words into something that is more palatable, so you get the full dose. And my posts would have been a lot less inflammatory if Richard H. didn't act like he is some kind of movie star that I should know about. If you want people to know that you 'are somebody' then put your claim to fame in your signature so that we will know when to roll out the red carpet.

 

 

When you tell someone that something he has done is a waste of time, a waste of space. . .

989319[/snapback]

You see, that's more stuff that is in your mind. It's a misrepresentation. I did not say that Richard H.'s creation was a waste of time or a waste of space. I said that supporting it in bB right now was a waste of time and that it would waste space in our programs (if we chose to program for it). Do most of the Avox users even visit this forum? We're lucky if we can even get bB users to come back to this forum more than once every 5,000 years since bB is so new and still in beta.

 

 

. . . and use the somewhat-loaded word "insignificant" to describe the number of people that you think would be positively affected by his work, how can you expect people to ignore the tone?

989319[/snapback]

Talk about ego. A program that uses the built-in sound of the Atari 2600 potentially has access to millions of people. At this time, 50 people can benefit from a program that supports the Avox. Each Avox owner might be a legend in his own mind or even an actual legend, but the fact is that it's still an insignificant number. Forget about insignificant numbers of people, we're all insignificant if you think about it. Each one of us is a speck on a speck of a planet swirling around a bunch of other specks. Your feelings and personal drama mean nothing to the universe. It's too bad that I hurt the feelings of any Avox users who visit this forum who have also read this thread, but it is a fact that an insignificant number of people own an Avox at this time.

 

Besides all of that, I already said this:

There's something of a chicken-egg problem.  No point in many people buying an Atarivox if no software supports it, and not much point in developers supporting it if nobody has one.

986994[/snapback]

Oh, it's an if we build it, they will come kind of thing. Has an emulator emulated it yet? That might help sell it.

986999[/snapback]

Supercat convinced me to jump on your bandwagon many posts back, but the posts still keep coming as if I told Richard H. to shove the Avox up his bum while he rapes his mother and blows his grandfather.

Edited December 26, 2005 by Random Terrain

[mos6507]

A program that uses the built-in sound of the Atari 2600 potentially has access to millions of people.

 

For some people, the "reach" of their work is not the main goal.

 

What is the reach of a project like this?

Edited December 27, 2005 by mos6507

[SeaGtGruff]

I'm wondering what we all think batari should call the next version of bB-- version 0.4, or version 1.0?

 

Of course, the decision is his to make. But it sounds like this is going to be a major upgrade of bB, so maybe a jump to 1.0 would be more fitting?

 

Michael Rideout

[~llama]

The truth is often inflammatory. Most people are better at disguising it than I am. I don't have a secretary who can convert my words into something that is more palatable, so you get the full dose.

 

...so your opinion about Avox support being a waste of time is the truth?

 

There's something of a chicken-egg problem.  No point in many people buying an Atarivox if no software supports it, and not much point in developers supporting it if nobody has one.

986994[/snapback]

Oh, it's an if we build it, they will come kind of thing. Has an emulator emulated it yet? That might help sell it.

986999[/snapback]

 

This is a good point. Are either of the major A26 emulators (referring to Stella and Z26 here) working on AtariVox support? I've never heard the AtariVox in action, and don't really have any way to do so without an emulator to test games in, so I don't really know what I'm missing, so to speak.

 

The same isn't true for the memory card function, however--the benefits of being able to save a game state are self-evident.

Edited December 27, 2005 by ~llama

[+Random Terrain]

For some people, the "reach" of their work is not the main goal.

 

What is the reach of a project like this?

989731[/snapback]

That seems more like a comparison to the Avox itself than a bB programmer programming for the Avox. Programming for the Avox without an Avox or an emulated version of it is like putting on boxing gloves and a blindfold and attempting to do brain surgery.

 

 

The truth is often inflammatory. Most people are better at disguising it than I am. I don't have a secretary who can convert my words into something that is more palatable, so you get the full dose.

...so your opinion about Avox support being a waste of time is the truth?

989737[/snapback]

Yep. When did I say it wasn't? I think it is a waste of time right now, but if supporting it will help sell more of them and get it included in an emulator or two, it may not be such a waste of time in the long run. The thing I never said was that the Avox itself was a waste of time. Richard H. can play with it in his basement all he wants. If it gives him joy, it's not a waste of time.

[SeaGtGruff]

What exactly is needed to add Atarivox support to a game? What programming does it require? I'm talking about in an assembly program, not in a bB program. Because if it can be done in assembly, then it can already be done in bB right now, just not with a simple bB command or two. What I'm wondering is if we could write an Avox routine and put it in a custom include file? How does Avox work? Can you point me to some documentation about how to program for it? I found the PDF for the SpeakJet, and I found an Atari 800 driver that someone wrote and posted, is that all I need to look at, or can anyone point me to some documentation and/or examples for using the Atarivox with the 2600? Thanks in advance.

 

Michael Rideout

[Richard H.]

or can anyone point me to some documentation and/or examples for using the Atarivox with the 2600?

The AtariVox driver pack should tell you everything you need to know.

[supercat]

The AtariVox driver pack should tell you everything you need to know.

989789[/snapback]

 

But with one caveat: a branch that crosses a page boundary can cause the speech to become all garbled.

[+batari]

I'm wondering what we all think batari should call the next version of bB-- version 0.4, or version 1.0?

 

Of course, the decision is his to make. But it sounds like this is going to be a major upgrade of bB, so maybe a jump to 1.0 would be more fitting?

 

Michael Rideout

989734[/snapback]

I was thinking 1.0.

 

Regardless, I will get rid of the incorrect "alpha" designation (I don't write software for a living, so I had no idea I was doing this wrong.) I think I will correctly call the next release a "beta" since it will likely have bugs, possibly serious bugs, that will need to be fixed right away, then a week or two later I will fix the bugs and call it 1.0.

[potatohead]

I'm wondering what we all think batari should call the next version of bB-- version 0.4, or version 1.0?

 

Of course, the decision is his to make. But it sounds like this is going to be a major upgrade of bB, so maybe a jump to 1.0 would be more fitting?

 

Michael Rideout

989734[/snapback]

I was thinking 1.0.

 

Regardless, I will get rid of the incorrect "alpha" designation (I don't write software for a living, so I had no idea I was doing this wrong.) I think I will correctly call the next release a "beta" since it will likely have bugs, possibly serious bugs, that will need to be fixed right away, then a week or two later I will fix the bugs and call it 1.0.

989892[/snapback]

 

This is a solid choice, IMHO. bB (Dang, I always want to type Bb) is well past alpha stage with the 0.3* release.

[+batari]

What exactly is needed to add Atarivox support to a game? What programming does it require? I'm talking about in an assembly program, not in a bB program. Because if it can be done in assembly, then it can already be done in bB right now, just not with a simple bB command or two. What I'm wondering is if we could write an Avox routine and put it in a custom include file? How does Avox work? Can you point me to some documentation about how to program for it? I found the PDF for the SpeakJet, and I found an Atari 800 driver that someone wrote and posted, is that all I need to look at, or can anyone point me to some documentation and/or examples for using the Atarivox with the 2600? Thanks in advance.

 

Michael Rideout

989779[/snapback]

I didn't actually use the driver pack, since I had already written a serial driver for the 2600 for the cart dumper utility. Though if I support the serial EEPROM, I will need it.

 

The code that says "batari basic" was written totally in bB and could easily be adapted to say other things. The final version will probably be a little easier than this (maybe something that will translate the escape codes for you, and maybe talk automatically without needing to set up data tables and send them one char at a time.)

 

I did not, and probably won't need to spend much time on this, so people needn't worry that I will leave out "more important" features in favor of this. As you can see, there's really nothing to it.

But with one caveat: a branch that crosses a page boundary can cause the speech to become all garbled.

That's a good point - I'll need to be careful where I locate the driver code.

 

Anyway, here's the avox.bas source code:

 dim atarivox=a
 SWACNT=1
 data speak
 0, 170, 138, 192, 152, 128, 5, 170, 154, 187, 129, 7, 22, 4, 197, 255
end
talkloop
 if speak[b]=255 then b=0
 if joy0fire then b=1
 if b<>0 then atarivox=speak[b]:b=b+1:gosub talk
 drawscreen
 goto talkloop

talk asm   
       LDA #0
       STA SWCHA
  
  lda atarivox
  ldx #7
  sleep 54

OUT232b
       STA     SWCHA
       ROR                    ;  rotate  out  next  bit
; need 49 cycle delay here
 ldy #7;46 cycles
 sleep 49
       DEX                    ;  decrement  counter
       BPL     OUT232b;  loop  until  8  bits  sent
       STX     SWCHA
 
 rts
end