What was the worst 2600 arcade conversion?

[keithbk]

I voted Pac-Man because I despise the color choice and the fact that "little" things could have been improved to make it so much better. The blue/yellow looked TERRIBLE on my old CRT TV.

 

I had Defender back in the day before I ever played the arcade and I thought it was just fine. I don't get what people don't like about it. Same with Donkey Kong... I had the cartridge before I played the arcade game and found it quite fun. Yeah, the arcade game is so much better after I finally played it, but I accepted that those arcade games were light years ahead of my Atari 2600.

 

Zaxxon is TERRIBLE, but I never liked the arcade game either... I hated the "perspective" of the original and the Atari game held no interest for me. I probably picked the game up at a garage sale for $.25, but because I didn't have it or Amidar back in "the day" (only long after, when you found this stuff in garage sales for $.25 each), I didn't have my opinion "bake in" to my conscience.

 

 

[zzip]

On 6/11/2022 at 10:55 AM, keithbk said:

I had Defender back in the day before I ever played the arcade and I thought it was just fine. I don't get what people don't like about it. Same with Donkey Kong... I had the cartridge before I played the arcade game and found it quite fun. Yeah, the arcade game is so much better after I finally played it, but I accepted that those arcade games were light years ahead of my Atari 2600.

We had an expectation back then that Atari 2600 could never match an arcade machine,   so I gave ports a certain amount of leeway.   Defender was kind of at my border of acceptability.   I enjoyed the home port-  it had all the features of the arcade but it was kind of implemented weird.

 

Donkey Kong was one I never liked much.   It was a common belief back then that Coleco messed it up on purpose because they wanted to sell you a Colecovision.   But it actually shows more signs of effort than 2600 Pac-Man did.   I just think a proper DK was beyond the 2600 capabilities, especially with the rom sizes they were using at the time.

 

This was also a time (82) where developers were getting higher-resolution graphics out of the 2600.   Things were looking much better than the blocky graphics of early 2600 games.   So that was changing our expectations of what the 2600 could do.  

[BIGHMW]

I, also wrote the 2600 off for dead, after seeing the original 2600 port of Pac-Man and got myself a 5200 back in 1983.

 

Fast forward to 2016, I saw this brilliant port by Dennis @DEBRO called Pac-Man 4k, that, brought me back to the 2600, and so I got the old Flashback Portable because of its onboard SD card slot, and after downloading the complete 2600 library at that time, I started to get more and more hooked on 2600 games enough to get the VCS adapter for my 5200 to play them on.

 

Fast forward 3 years later, to 2019, I acquired a Flashback 9, the AR3050, it's still in (and has earned) a spot in my home theater while my 5200 and ColecoVision sit in another part of my apartment known as the gaming area, where they sit with their own Insignia TV, along with my dartboard in which is interchangeable with a Sklz Pro Mini Hoop and I still do play every them once in a while.

 

4 years later, here in 2023 the evolution of gaming on a 2600 with developers and programmers capable of squeezing every drop of those 128 bytes of RAM to the point where the other consoles have pretty much been left idle. If you wrote off the 2600 40 years ago due to Pac-Man, Donkey Kong or other sub-par ports from BITD, I strongly suggest you take a look at the incredible new ports of them, you'll be quite amazed at 2600 games today.

[vrocko]

Zaxxon was really bad, in my opinion. Worse than most. Was expecting so much more but yuck. Donkey Kong was bad as well in that you only got two levels. How the heck is that a conversion? Now-a-days you can add more memory and program a decent game. DK got all the levels in the updated version and is great. Wish they'd do that for Zaxxon but I don't know if the 2600 could handle it. 

 

[+LS650]

This is quite an old thread...  Over the years my opinion of PacMan has improved.  There were a few things they could have done even then to improve it, but it's not completely horrible.

Now Zaxxon... that is truly a fiery wreck.

[+Pat Brady]

59 minutes ago, vrocko said:

Wish they'd do that for Zaxxon but I don't know if the 2600 could handle it. 

 

Given sufficient processing power on the cart, the 2600 can do Zaxxon and a lot more.

[vrocko]

36 minutes ago, Pat Brady said:

 

Given sufficient processing power on the cart, the 2600 can do Zaxxon and a lot more.

I wish someone would. They've done justice to Mappy, Donkey Kong, Pac-Man, Ms. Pac-Man, Galaga, Qbert, Gorf, Bosconian, Star Castle, Scramble, I could go on and on but not a Zaxxon to be found. 

[zzip]

1 hour ago, Pat Brady said:

 

Given sufficient processing power on the cart, the 2600 can do Zaxxon and a lot more.

Can it do a proper isometric game that isn't a mirrored image (like the 2600 Crystal Castles)?    I thought that was one of the things that was very difficult on the 2600

[Keatah]

Too bad nothing came of that ZaxxonHD demo from years ago.

[BIGHMW]

30 minutes ago, Keatah said:

Too bad nothing came of that ZaxxonHD demo from years ago.

Thanks for the reference, Prior to your post I never knew there was a ZaxxonHD but for all of you I guess it is my obligation to refresh your memories and post the ROMS and the Zip files of this great classic that FINALLY got some justice.

 

Here also, is the thread that I googled up right here on AA about this incredible port of Zaxxon. Maybe it'll inspire the one who put out this great port in which I'll be testing on my Flashback 9 and Harmony Encore to get back on it and finish it.

 

 

ZaxxonHDDemo_150927.zip ZaxxonHDDemo_150927_NTSC.bin ZaxxonHDDemo_150927_PAL60.bin

Edited February 1, 2023 by BIGHMW

[Lauren Tyler]

Pac-Man is always the worst people think of, but that was due to being rushed and a lack of resources, so I'm going to give that one a pass.

 

To be honest, my top three are:

 

1. Donkey Kong Jr. - OK, seriously what happened here? I know Donkey Kong wasn't the best either, and that's understandable given how they only had 4k of memory at the time and the Atari 2600 had its limitations.  At least you could tell that the player character was Mario, even if he looked a little chunky when he climbed a ladder.  You could tell that you were supposed to be climbing up the girders on the construction site, and even though the second screen was symmetrical and the fireballs didn't have animation, at least they resembled the enemies somewhat.  Not to mention the barrels had decent animation too.  But Donkey Kong Jr.? The levels barely even resemble their original counterparts, Donkey Kong Jr. looks like a small mud man, and the enemies... ugh.  The Snapjaws look only like mouths that are rapidly opening and closing.  Sure they included three levels, but they're way out of order and the playability is just awful.  Seriously, Coleco, why even bother?

2. Double Dragon - The colors could have been done a LOT better for the enemy sprites.  Also, the fact you don't earn extra lives really hurts.  They could have at least offered a continue feature! Honestly, it just shouldn't have been done.

 

3. Zaxxon - The perspective being changed is a huge annoyance.  Even with the height meter, it's still difficult to gauge where you are flying.  I can't tell you how many times I crashed into a force field or wall because I didn't know where I truly was.  Also, the fact the spaceship looks more like an airplane never sat well with me.  Then again, the ship in the arcade version looked like a jet fighter too, so maybe it's a jet-shaped space fighter? Who knows?

[+Pat Brady]

10 hours ago, zzip said:

Can it do a proper isometric game that isn't a mirrored image (like the 2600 Crystal Castles)?    I thought that was one of the things that was very difficult on the 2600

DPC+, CDF, CDFJ, MovieCart, and ACE have really obliterated all of the old rules about what is possible on the 2600.

Even without any on-cart processing, we have Space Raid (4K and 8K versions, both ROM-only, both outstanding achievements IMO) and Atari's own Desert Falcon (16K with 128 bytes of RAM). I expect the above cartridge types could put more objects on the screen.

 

EDIT: @Andrew Davie's MovieCart reproduction of Zaxxon arcade gameplay is also worth seeing. It's not a 2600 game, but it demonstrates what the 2600 is capable of displaying.

 

[Mr SQL]

10 hours ago, Lauren Tyler said:

2. Double Dragon - The colors could have been done a LOT better for the enemy sprites.  Also, the fact you don't earn extra lives really hurts.  They could have at least offered a continue feature! Honestly, it just shouldn't have been done.

 

3. Zaxxon - The perspective being changed is a huge annoyance.  Even with the height meter, it's still difficult to gauge where you are flying.  I can't tell you how many times I crashed into a force field or wall because I didn't know where I truly was.  Also, the fact the spaceship looks more like an airplane never sat well with me.  Then again, the ship in the arcade version looked like a jet fighter too, so maybe it's a jet-shaped space fighter? Who knows?

X2 with Double Dragon I can't make it through the first screen.

But Zaxxon is awesome, the perspective change is well adapted and has the elements. 

 

[NE146]

I've said this a bunch, but Zaxxon would probably be considered a relatively decent (and definitely unique) 2600 game in its day had it never had the "Zaxxon" name... ok and maybe if the ship didn't look like an airplane  But still, it has very unique gameplay as a shmup for the VCS, stages, and.. it has a boss!  Can't knock that really.  But alas, when viewed as an arcade port of what was a state of the art arcade game at the time, it obviously falls short. 

 

 

 

 

[+cvga]

On 2/1/2023 at 2:32 PM, vrocko said:

 I could go on and on but not a Zaxxon to be found. 

Check out Space Raid for the Atari 2600. It's an improved port of Zaxxon.

 

 

[jhd]

That is a impressive version of Zaxxon! It captures all of the core elements of the original, and it even includes a few things lacking in some other versions (e.g. the satellites in the outer space portion).  

 

Was this an overhaul of the Coleco version, or a completely from-scratch creation?  

Edited February 3, 2023 by jhd

[Mike Honcho]

Donkey Kong Jnr

[Mockduck]

Double Dragon, probably, since it is basically unplayable. For earlier era, my vote is for Donkey Kong Jr., boy is that bad...

[almightytodd]

The thing about Pac-man is that it seems like Atari felt like they had to do a port, simply because the arcade game was so iconic. It was like when they came out with Video Chess just because there was a chess piece on the original VCS box. The Space Invaders port was just so good, and it came out almost two years earlier. Tod Frye asked for the extra ROM space to do Pac-man right, and he was turned down. The Amidar port may be technically worse, but Amidar was not a huge arcade hit (compared to Pac-man anyway), so it doesn't seem deserve the number one worst port spot, in my opinion. 

 

It just adds insult to injury that they hyped Pac-man so much, and then made it the pack-in game. I'm sure the "pack-in" status must have been the most significant factor to it ending up as the 2600's best-selling game. When Ms. Pac-man came out later and demonstrated what Pac-man should have been, and then Jr. Pac-man followed after that; it just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

 

Anyway, I must be the only one who feels that none of the 2600 driving games ever connected with the groove that was established by the coin-op Night Driver. There was just a smoothness to the way the road reflectors wind towards you that I've never seen anywhere else. Activision's "Enduro" comes close, but I don't know; maybe the additional features in that game are a distraction from the simplicity that Night Driver represented. Even in later coin-op games like Pole Position and Cruisin' USA, they didn't seem to flow the way Night Driver did. It may be that the view from behind the car you're driving makes it harder to feel like you're "in the car".

 

I would love to see a night-time road racing game set on a two-way mountain road with cars coming towards you in the other lane and having to pass slower cars in your lane without getting into a head-on collision (I'm thinking of the descent into Santa Barbara California, heading south on San Marcos Pass, if you've ever seen that stretch of road). It would be cool if it could be done on a retro platform, but it could have real potential even on a modern platform if done right.

[zzip]

16 hours ago, almightytodd said:

Tod Frye asked for the extra ROM space to do Pac-man right, and he was turned down. The Amidar port may be technically worse, but Amidar was not a huge arcade hit (compared to Pac-man anyway), so it doesn't seem deserve the number one worst port spot, in my opinion.

I don't think this is a good excuse.    Yes Atari should have given Pac-Man extra ROM since it should have been a major selling point for the 2600. But others have proved that the 2600 can do a respectable PacMan in only 4K.   

 

I think if they made a bunch of small fixes to the 2600 version, it would have been better received:

 

- fix the colors to be more arcade like-  no extra rom needed, should be able to fix this in minutes.

- fix the pacman, get rid of the eye, make it rounder-  should consume the same amount of bytes, maybe even save some since you could mirror top and bottom.

- fix the sound,  "boing boing boing" is just wrong, should be able to do something closer to the arcade in the same amount of code or less

- put tunnels on the side-  no idea what coding challenges/code size this presents

- music:  the 2600 music is 4 notes.  I think the arcade is 19 notes if you did it in a single channel.    So this will cost a few bytes for sure, but not a huge a mount

 

I think the changes above would have vastly reduced the complaints.

 

stretch goals:   reduce flicker, add fruits,  add Pac-man up and down animation,  make the maze more arcade-like - Ms PacMan had all these things, but it might require an 8K ROM to get them all.

 

[Crazy Climber]

1 hour ago, zzip said:

I don't think this is a good excuse.    Yes Atari should have given Pac-Man extra ROM since it should have been a major selling point for the 2600. But others have proved that the 2600 can do a respectable PacMan in only 4K.   

 

Gotta remember, these "others" got a collective 30+ years of time and experience to bring a respectable 4k pac man.

 

Todd Frye got what, a few months maybe and at that time everything was still new

 

Just saying, not really fair to compare what people can do TODAY with the system to what they could do back then.

 

I actually liked Pac man but I was pretty young and liked just about anything I could play in my living room that wasn't a total train wreck.

Zaxxon seemed like an easy choice BUT the arcade version wasn't really fun for me either...

 

I picked Congo Bongo since I loved the arcade version and didn't get a chance to play the 2600 version until much later. I don't have any nostalgia with it and I don't like it haha.

[zzip]

5 minutes ago, Crazy Climber said:

Gotta remember, these "others" got a collective 30+ years of time and experience to bring a respectable 4k pac man.

 

Todd Frye got what, a few months maybe and at that time everything was still new

 

Just saying, not really fair to compare what people can do TODAY with the system to what they could do back then.

But the changes I'm talking about are not advanced, most aren't particularly time consuming and all were present in the Ms Pac-man Atari released the following year.

 

Yes Todd had a time limit, but was giving him an extra few days to get it right really going to kill them?   One version of the story was that the version that got released was a prototype but an executive said "good enough, ship it!"

 

Atari proved multiple times they were capable of producing reasonable arcade ports on the 2600 giving the hw limits.   Berzerk was a decent port, Phoenix was.  Space Invaders was.   But on the most important port they somehow decide to completely blow it.   Doesn't make sense

[Crazy Climber]

49 minutes ago, zzip said:

But the changes I'm talking about are not advanced, most aren't particularly time consuming and all were present in the Ms Pac-man Atari released the following year.

 

Yes Todd had a time limit, but was giving him an extra few days to get it right really going to kill them?   One version of the story was that the version that got released was a prototype but an executive said "good enough, ship it!"

 

Atari proved multiple times they were capable of producing reasonable arcade ports on the 2600 giving the hw limits.   Berzerk was a decent port, Phoenix was.  Space Invaders was.   But on the most important port they somehow decide to completely blow it.   Doesn't make sense

I thought Ms pac was 8k?

 

I'm no programmer and I'm not saying Atari 2600 pac man didn't ultimately "suck" compared to other ports, and sure it "could have" been way better!

 

All I'm saying, comparing it to 4k versions made 25+ years later (with no time restrictions and a lot of collective/shared knowledge available) isn't very fair haha.

[NE146]

2 hours ago, zzip said:

I think if they made a bunch of small fixes to the 2600 version, it would have been better received:

 

- fix the colors to be more arcade like-  no extra rom needed, should be able to fix this in minutes.

- fix the pacman, get rid of the eye, make it rounder-  should consume the same amount of bytes, maybe even save some since you could mirror top and bottom.

- fix the sound,  "boing boing boing" is just wrong, should be able to do something closer to the arcade in the same amount of code or less

- put tunnels on the side-  no idea what coding challenges/code size this presents

- music:  the 2600 music is 4 notes.  I think the arcade is 19 notes if you did it in a single channel.    So this will cost a few bytes for sure, but not a huge a mount

 

I think the changes above would have vastly reduced the complaints.

 

stretch goals:   reduce flicker, add fruits,  add Pac-man up and down animation,  make the maze more arcade-like - Ms PacMan had all these things, but it might require an 8K ROM to get them all.

 

Nukey did a lot of those in his hack to Atari pacman.  Sure he made it 8k (for intermissions, etc.), but it at least gives you an idea of what you're talking about IF we're talking only about improving the original VCS Pac-man we all know and love.

 

 

Aside from that of course at this point there's Dintar816's amazing port of the arcade game to the VCS

 

[zzip]

13 minutes ago, Crazy Climber said:

I thought Ms pac was 8k?

It is, but it also had intermissions and extra mazes and things that probably could be cut to squeeze it into 4K.    It also got the basics reasonably correct: sounds/music/colors/sprite shapes/animations/fruits   Also Pac Man was one of the last 4K carts-  Atari switched to 8K shortly after so Atari probably could have made it 8K if they wanted to.   But they seemed to act like it would sell on name alone (and it did) they didn't have to worry about quality too much.

 

19 minutes ago, NE146 said:

Nukey did a lot of those in his hack to Atari pacman.  Sure he made it 8k (for intermissions, etc.), but it at least gives you an idea of what you're talking about IF we're talking only about improving the original VCS Pac-man we all know and love.

Exactly,  I think the original could have been tweaked with relatively small tweaks into something that most fans of the arcade would accept.    We all knew the 2600 can't do arcade-perfect,  but with Pac-man it was like they didn't even try because everything was all wrong!  the colors, the sounds, the 'square vitamins', the maze, the tunnel location, the eye.