What was the worst 2600 arcade conversion?

[AtariLeaf]

I chose pacman but honestly I personally think pooyan and Mr do are the worst ports. Maybe it's because I really like both games which have good ports on other platforms that it heightens my disappointment in the 2600 ports.

 

These are actually two games I'd love someone like Champ Games to tackle

[+SpiceWare]

4 hours ago, Crazy Climber said:

Gotta remember, these "others" got a collective 30+ years of time and experience to bring a respectable 4k pac man.

 

Additionally the newer 4K versions are all single player games - not having to keep track of 2 sets of scores, lives, dots, etc. frees up quite a bit of RAM that can be used to implement things like sprite flicker logic.

[+Pat Brady]

2 hours ago, Crazy Climber said:

All I'm saying, comparing it to 4k versions made 25+ years later (with no time restrictions and a lot of collective/shared knowledge available) isn't very fair haha.

 

By 1981, Atari's in-house developers were extremely familiar with the 2600, and had come up with lots of clever tricks. I'm not sure that a decent Pac-Man needs many tricks besides flickering and 6-digit score, and Atari's original 2600 Pac-Man uses both of those (though the flicker could be improved). From what I've read, Tod Frye's knowledge of the 2600 was definitely not the problem. I think the fundamental problem was that Atari management at that time just did not care whether their customers liked their games. They understood (correctly) that Pac-Man would sell well even if it stunk, and they either didn't anticipate or didn't care how that would play out in 1983.

 

2 hours ago, NE146 said:

Nukey did a lot of those in his hack to Atari pacman.  Sure he made it 8k (for intermissions, etc.), but it at least gives you an idea of what you're talking about IF we're talking only about improving the original VCS Pac-man we all know and love.

 

Aside from that of course at this point there's Dintar816's amazing port of the arcade game to the VCS

 

Also DEBRO's port, which is excellent and only 4K.

 

2 hours ago, zzip said:

Also Pac Man was one of the last 4K carts-  Atari switched to 8K shortly after so Atari probably could have made it 8K if they wanted to.

 

Asteroids was 8K and came out before Pac-Man, but was an outlier. 8K had a real cost at the time and was not absolutely necessary for Pac-Man. The decision to keep Pac-Man 4K was at least defensible, unlike some of the other decisions.

 

1 minute ago, SpiceWare said:

Additionally the newer 4K versions are all single player games - not having to keep track of 2 sets of scores, lives, dots, etc. frees up quite a bit of RAM that can be used to implement things like sprite flicker logic.

 

Undoubtedly true, but Atari chose to spend RAM and ROM on the 2-player variant instead of making the 1-player game better, and that's one decision (among many) that made it a bad port. I'd say the same for attract mode color cycling.

 

The colors and the shape of Pac-Man's mouth were bad decisions that had no benefits at all. I hacked it so the colors are correct and Pac-Man's mouth opens as a wedge. It's not great, but feels more like Pac-Man. Took about 30 minutes, and most of that was finding the sprite tables and color-changing code.

 

To be clear, I don't blame Frye specifically. I think he gave Atari what they asked for.

 

[zzip]

14 hours ago, Pat Brady said:

8K had a real cost at the time and was not absolutely necessary for Pac-Man. The decision to keep Pac-Man 4K was at least defensible, unlike some of the other decisions.

IDK, it was the hottest game around at the time, if that isn't worth spending extra money on to get right, what is?   They could charge extra for the game and still sell a ton.  Also we were seeing 8K standard within months after Pac-man, how much extra cost was it really at that point in time?

[+Pat Brady]

2 minutes ago, zzip said:

IDK, it was the hottest game around at the time, if that isn't worth spending extra money on to get right, what is?   They could charge extra for the game and still sell a ton.  Also we were seeing 8K standard within months after Pac-man, how much extra cost was it really at that point in time?

 

My semi-educated guess is that the cost would have been in the millions.

 

My point was that if they cared about getting it right, they could have done much better in 4K (e.g. by giving Frye better guidance, more time, and/or more help). And if they did not care about getting it right — which I believe is the case — then going to 8K might have made it only slightly less awful.

[+sramirez2008]

Does anyone have a problem with Battlezone, Centipede, Defender or Missile Command?  I think all four look and play really well.

 

 

[Keatah]

25 minutes ago, sramirez2008 said:

Does anyone have a problem with Battlezone, Centipede, Defender or Missile Command?  I think all four look and play really well.

Battlezone and Missile Command are excellent. I would even prefer them over their arcade cousins. Centipede I have no opinion on, not a top favorite of mine.

 

At the time I was into Defender I was all over the 400/800 version. So the 2600 looked pale in comparison. However it is what it is and I don't dislike it.

[+sramirez2008]

58 minutes ago, Keatah said:

Battlezone and Missile Command are excellent. I would even prefer them over their arcade cousins. Centipede I have no opinion on, not a top favorite of mine.

 

At the time I was into Defender I was all over the 400/800 version. So the 2600 looked pale in comparison. However it is what it is and I don't dislike it.

If I had to rank them, I'd go with Battlezone, Missile Command, Defender and Centipede. I really like Battlezone and Missile Command too. 

[TrekMD]

3 hours ago, sramirez2008 said:

Does anyone have a problem with Battlezone, Centipede, Defender or Missile Command?  I think all four look and play really well.

 

 

Of those, only Defender.  After playing Stargate, I can't go back.  Millipede is another well done port. 

[+sramirez2008]

10 minutes ago, TrekMD said:

Of those, only Defender.  After playing Stargate, I can't go back.  Millipede is another well done port. 

Stargate is better, but Defender is no slouch. Sure your ship disappears when you shoot, but they managed to include the scanner and I like how they incorporated the smart bombs and hyperspace. Not bad for a one button joystick. I will say that my favorite Atari version of Defender is the 5200 and it plays extremely well with the CX52.

 

Millipede is well done.

[zzip]

14 hours ago, Pat Brady said:

My semi-educated guess is that the cost would have been in the millions.

 

My point was that if they cared about getting it right, they could have done much better in 4K (e.g. by giving Frye better guidance, more time, and/or more help). And if they did not care about getting it right — which I believe is the case — then going to 8K might have made it only slightly less awful.

I definitely agree it could have been much better in 4K.  And it does seem like Atari + Frye did not care about getting it right, which is bizarre because you don't see that level of disregard for quality or the source material in Atari's other arcade ports. 

 

But I keep getting objections "they only had 4K to work with!"  so my other question is when Atari was deciding which games were worthy of 8K, why would they cheap out on Pac Man when it was the hottest game around at the time.   People would pay more for the name and they'd be able to cover the costs of the bigger rom.

 

Overall yeah it does seem like the attitude was "we don't have to get it right, people are going to buy it anyway".   Or maybe they were hoping people would buy 5200s for the much better version later that year?

[zzip]

14 hours ago, sramirez2008 said:

Does anyone have a problem with Battlezone, Centipede, Defender or Missile Command?  I think all four look and play really well.

Defender is off for sure.

 

However since 2600 only has a single fire button,  they couldn't have buttons for smart bomb and hyperspace so they did what they did  and made you go off the screen to use them.   That's the biggest gameplay change.   The rest is visual-  your ship disappears when firing,  city instead of mountains some of the enemy sprites are different

 

I was a huge fan of the arcade game, and never that big on the 2600 version.   But at the same time knew the 2600 had it's limits and couldn't produce an arcade perfect port.  so I didn't get angry about it the way I did with Pac Man were it seemed like they didn't even try.

 

Centipede - I was initially disappointed that all the mushrooms and shooters were simple blocks,  but it played well, so I learned to excuse that.

[Zoyous]

I remember Tod Frye in an interview (some time in this millennium) saying something to the effect that, at that time, they didn't know that arcade accuracy in terms of colors and maze design were very important to consumers. I find that hard to believe, by 1982-83. There was solid competition from Coleco who were really marketing their platform on arcade accuracy, and Intellivision had certainly chosen that tactic in promoting their sports games as more accurately resembling real life sports. Likening a home game to a cover song, would you be surprised if people were taken aback by your cover if you'd gone in and changed chord progressions? We know you don't have the same fancy recording studio as the famous album version of the song, but you can still strum the same chords... i.e., you could still make the maze have the same design as the arcade version. Having said all that, as a young kid I already had some understanding that the 2600 wasn't as powerful as the coin-ops, and I did enjoy and play a lot of 2600 Pac-Man.

[Crazy Climber]

13 hours ago, sramirez2008 said:

Does anyone have a problem with Battlezone, Centipede, Defender or Missile Command?  I think all four look and play really well.

 

 

 

11 hours ago, TrekMD said:

Of those, only Defender.  After playing Stargate, I can't go back. 

 

10 hours ago, sramirez2008 said:

Stargate is better, but Defender is no slouch.

 

22 minutes ago, zzip said:

Defender is off for sure.

 

 

 

I actually preferred the 2600 version of Defender over the arcade game.

 

I know I'm in the minority, and I don't feel the same way about the other games you mentioned BUT as a younger kid defender was so HARD for me to play...I totally sucked!! The 2600 version game at least gave me a fighting chance haha.

 

Now that I'm older (old) I still suck at the arcade Defender and still prefer the 2600 port!!

 

Being a big sci fi book nerd back in the 80's the 2600 Defender cartridge art really stuck with me. I remember many mornings before my parents woke up I would play defender (and ultimately lose) and just stare at the screen afterwards, imagining my city with no people/etc...

 

I know it was just a game but that empty blocky 2600 village really creeped me out when I let my mind wander...

 

 

[+sramirez2008]

10 minutes ago, Crazy Climber said:

Being a big sci fi book nerd back in the 80's the 2600 Defender cartridge art really stuck with me.

The artwork reminded me of a scene in the pilot episode of Battlestar Galactica (original series) when the Cylons attack the colonies.

[zzip]

1 hour ago, Crazy Climber said:

I actually preferred the 2600 version of Defender over the arcade game.

 

I know I'm in the minority, and I don't feel the same way about the other games you mentioned BUT as a younger kid defender was so HARD for me to play...I totally sucked!! The 2600 version game at least gave me a fighting chance haha.

 

Now that I'm older (old) I still suck at the arcade Defender and still prefer the 2600 port!!

There was a Defender arcade machine at a nearby convenience store and it was my obsession for awhile and I had gotten pretty good at it. 

 

But now when I try to play it,  I suck at it,  haha

[rennervision]

My vote is for Zaxxon.  I'd actually be pretty forgiving about the perspective they used for the home game.  OK, so you had to get a little creative due to the limitations of the system.  I understand.  But I don't even think they did THAT right.  Below are a couple screenshots showing how the game looks now (which seriously bugs my OCD nature) and how it SHOULD look.  The change is subtle but I think it makes a world of difference.  I don't understand why no one thought of how odd the original image looks.

[+GoldLeader]

3 games sprang instantly to mind.

 

Pac-Man, Zaxxon, and Amidar.

 

Pac-Man:  I bought into the hype and felt I had to have it, and overpaid after finally finding a store that still had a copy.  But...It did not get my vote if only because I was happy with my purchase (at the time) and I thought it brought something new into the world.  It was better not to think of it as Pac-Man,  and (in hindsight) I Do think it may have been a turning point W/ regards to events that triggered The Crash.  (I agree with all of the comments above about how it should have been better;  But in its own right,  it was a fun and playable game).

 

Zaxxon:  I was always curious what they did with this one and how they went about it,  but wouldn't find out until years later,  because I already had the ColecoVision version...I was never curious enough to shell out the money, ya might say...

 

Amidar:  Got my vote, ... (Let's see, attempting to explain...)  This one was personal.  I got it for Christmas,  and maybe even played it beforehand,  but kept thinking I'd missed something and that it had to be fun if I'd give it a chance.  I think the reason I wanted to like it so much was because I liked the idea of it.  (Unlike Pac-Man,  the quirky, subtly intriguing icon that became a global phenomenon);  Amidar was an obscure Arcade Game.  One I never saw even in the farthest corner of the darkest arcade,  and I wanted all kinds of Obscure arcade games to be at my disposal!  If I didn't support the effort it would never happen.  And surely some of these games would be hidden gems right?  (Coleco taught us so well)...Except this one wasn't.  The main thing I remember was that it Might have been fun if the controls were tight,  but they were so far off, half the time you couldn't take a corner!    No control ruined what might have been.   **Sigh**

[Cynicaster]

Double Dragon, Kung Fu Master, Rampage... I loved all of these games at the arcade when I was a kid and thought the 2600 versions were hopeless.  

[davyK]

Pacman was OK. I remember playing it at the time thinking it was OK if a bit ugly and I didn't care for the sounds either. A different colour palette would have helped it a great deal. But I was never that fussed on Pacman as a game back then so a Pacman port didn't really thrill me that much. Ms. Pacman and Jr. Pacman are among the best ports on the system however. I played quite a bit of Ms. Pacman in later years when I returned to the 2600.

 

I'm in two minds about Defender. When I first got it I was pretty disappointed with it, but I played a hell of a lot of it. Rolled over the score and the wave counter at diff A. Put in a pile of hours on it. The 2nd game is far superior re its accuracy but I haven't played it anywhere near as much.

 

Centipede is very basic looking but it plays well and like the better ports it feels like the original game, if slightly simplified. The feel of the gameplay is what's really important after all.

 

As good as they were in the day I wouldn't go back to Asteroids and Defender now for more than a few minutes as I feel they haven't aged as well - even though I played them both a lot and got hundreds of hours out of them and are among my fondest gaming memories.

 

When it comes to the worst port, I'd look 3rd party - jobs like Donkey Kong, Congo Bongo et al are probably the worst. I remember Amidar being painfully slow and the look of it was just totally disengaging.

 

The very late misguided ports like Double Dragon etc really shouldn't have happened.

Edited February 10, 2023 by davyK

[Zoyous]

42 minutes ago, davyK said:

When it comes to the worst port, I'd look 3rd party - jobs like Donkey Kong, Congo Bongo et al are probably the worst. I remember Amidar being painfully slow and the look of it was just totally disengaging.

Really? I thought Donkey Kong was quite good at the time, and it still is very playable now. Having an asymmetrical background like that wasn't something you'd typically see in that era IIRC.

[davyK]

1 hour ago, Zoyous said:

Really? I thought Donkey Kong was quite good at the time, and it still is very playable now. Having an asymmetrical background like that wasn't something you'd typically see in that era IIRC.

I remember reading an article about that - it does deserve a certain amount of credit. Probably a great tech achievement than anything though.     Maybe I should go back to it again but I don't think I'll be a convert!!    A brave attempt is the best I could say about it. 

[+LS650]

I think Donkey Kong is actually pretty decent.   Sure there are only two screens but what is there is good.  I still play DK 2600 occasionally. 

[doctorclu]

For those ripping on 2600 games, have you seen the Atari 2600?   I mean, certainly you have, but let's remember...

 

It was powerful for it's time, but not arcade level powerful.  It was mostly about interpretation into a lesser powerful system and gameplay.

 

Sure, we now have hacked these very games with better sprites, but it seems the programmers were not often graphics artists, or were just rushing to meet deadlines to get games out.   And a lot of us who have hacked or programmed better versions in many cases were done over a more generous amount of time.

 

Anyway, a lot of these I thought were pretty impressive for the time.

 

The first two had VERY iconic video game sounds that were not like the games they were porting, but man SOOO many times those game sounds were used in TV shows when people were playing video games.   I seem to remember those sounds being used clear into the Playstation 2 days.

 

Pacman

 

Actually a fun game.   I had more fun playing the 2600 game than I have the arcade game.

 

They could have tried to make the board look a little more like the arcade though.

 

Donkey Kong

At least the platforms and level design are basically here.  

 

Battlezone

Huh yeh that one is unneccessarily changed.  And yet 2600 Battlezone if you didn't know the source material was fairly fun and cool looking.

Atari probably should have named this like "Battlezone '83" as it was different than the arcade game released in 1980.

Amidar\

 

Not a big fan of Amidar but looks like the elements were there.

Congo Bongo

 

In comparison, pretty bad, but was still fun and they at least attempted very ambitiously to make it isometric.

I actually had fun playing this one.

 

Centipede

The 2600 game screen...

 

The 2600 title screen...

 

(Edited) Seems like it is basically a Centipede game though very basic.   When I saw the intro screen I thought it was the 5200 intro screen or something.   Such a stark difference.  But the gameplay is still closer to the arcade than the last game on this list.

Defender

 

Basically a Defender like game.   Thought the gameplay was a lot of fun and still do.

Missile Command

Not three missile banks, but the translation I thought worked for the setup with a joystick and one button.

Fun game.  Had a friend new to Atari I got a Atari portable for and she was hooked on the game for weeks.  Has stood the test of time in my book.

Gyruss

Yeh that looks basic in the graphics but in the 2600 it is a lot about gameplay and I remember this having that, the feel, the music.

A fun game on the 2600.

 

No, I think we all know who the clear "winner" is in all this...

Zaxxon

 

I was lucky enough to have a repaired Zaxxon standup arcade game in my house growing up, and I played the crap out of that game.

 

Where Congo Bongo was not great, it was at least an attempt at isometric.

Where Battlezone was not vector graphics looking (even Asteriods wasn't) or similar view, it was least interesting looking and fun.

 

I don't remember Zaxxon for the 2600 being any of that.   Not isometic.  Not fun.   Or maybe it was to others, but not me.

 

So the verdict: Zaxxon.

 

[+LS650]

That pic of Centipede is definitely not the 2600 version....