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Coleco gets a bad rap?


Lord Helmet

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Cool, a moldie oldie. Let's see . . .

Tac-Scan 2600 may have only one level, but one level in the arcade is simply the same as the first with a 3D effect and the third level is very brief (though I think it should have been attempted).

Pac-Man 2600 may have only one ghost color, but one ghost in the arcade is simply the same as the others and while the maze is entirely different, its still a maze (though I think a better one should have been attempted).

 

The issues of "fun game" or "accurate translation" do not overlap. I love 2600 Solar Fox and Tac-Scan, but they're not even close to being accurate translations. I firmly believe that more people would have noticed this if they'd ever played these games in the arcade.

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They may not be close to accurate translations, but I still think it's a bit unfair to lump them with Pac-Man. Also, I feel that accurate and good translations are different things. I feel that Tac-Scan and Solar Fox are good translations. Also, my issues with Pac-Man have nothing to due with the ghost color (and there is actually more than one ghost color in the 2600 Pac-Man if you look closely). The maze design is terrible and the game feels nothing like Pac-Man. Tac-Scan and Solar Fox may be missing elements from the originals, but they still feel like Tac-Scan and Solar Fox.

 

Actually, I was probably harsh on Donkey Kong. It's missing quite a bit from the original, but it still feels like Donkey Kong and actually looks pretty decent. I don't like the lack of difficulty progression, though. Now, Donkey Kong Jr., that's a whole different story. IMO, it's one of the worst if not THE worst 2600 arcade translation.

Edited by BrianC
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Any game can be good or bad. A translation is defined by its accuracy.

 

If no one had ever seen the original Donkey Kong or Defender, they would have loved them as well.

 

I have seen the original Defender, Mario Bros, Popeye, Tac-Scan, Q*Bert, Jungle Hunt, Crystal Castles, and Frogger in arcades and I still love the 2600 translations of them. Donkey Kong was also one I played quite a bit in arcades, but the 2600 one is only ok (good thing I have the Atari 800 version. That one rocks). I only tried Solar Fox in MAME, though. A translation isn't ONLY defined by it's accuracy for me. Fun factor, game design, and how the game stands on its own are important for me too.

Edited by BrianC
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Again, those are the merits of a "good game." It has nothing to do with being a "good translation." I'm sorry if you can't understand that.

 

Tac-Scan: Good game/Bad translation

Steeplechase: Bad game/Good translation

Millipede: Good game/Good translation

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Again, those are the merits of a "good game." It has nothing to do with being a "good translation." I'm sorry if you can't understand that.

 

Tac-Scan: Good game/Bad translation

Steeplechase: Bad game/Good translation

Millipede: Good game/Good translation

 

No, we just disagree on what a good translation is. I feel that accurate and good translations are two different things. I'm sorry if you can't accept that. Anyway, this is getting silly. It's getting to be like a tomato/tomoato argument with posts trying to correct each other, even when someone isn't wrong.

 

However, there is one thing we can agree on. Hack 'em is one fine translation of Pac-Man. :)

Edited by BrianC
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What exactly is missing from Solar Fox that makes it such a bad translation?

 

I played the hell outta the arcade game as a kid and did the same with the 2600 version.

 

It retained enough of the arcade elements to make it good IMO

 

At least that's how I remember it.

 

I may have to play the MAME version and then do a comparison

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The 2600 version is missing a lot of elements from the arcade like being able to shoot the things shooting at you, bonus point items, moving on a grid, obstacles, etc. Much of the missing stuff was probably done due to the 2600 hardware. My opinion of it still stands, though.

Edited by BrianC
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Pac-Man 2600 may have only one ghost color, but one ghost in the arcade is simply the same as the others and while the maze is entirely different, its still a maze (though I think a better one should have been attempted).

 

I took a picture of Pacman and you can tell that they're not the same color.

 

Nukey Shay hacked it and changed the color values so it's more noticable.

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OK so there are no enemies on the left or right sides, you can't shoot, there are no whirlpools or those moving bonus point black hole things. Still, for a 2600 version it's not unplayable and retains the essential game mechanics of the arcade version.

 

In hindsight almost EVERY game could have been done better but for the time it was a fine translation. At least for me.

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Actually, I was probably harsh on Donkey Kong. It's missing quite a bit from the original, but it still feels like Donkey Kong and actually looks pretty decent.

 

I think Gary Kitchen really did an amazing job at getting Donkey Kong into a 4K cartridge. I don't think it should have been a 4K cartridge, but I don't think Coleco had the means to produce cheap 8K cartridges at the time. A 2764 and two 7400's would suffice (using something similar to 3F banking, but different) but I don't think any cheap small methods were known back then.

 

Were I in charge of Donkey Kong, I would have elimated the hammer and allowed 30Hz flicker. Doing those two things would have allowed twice as many barrels on the first screen and would also have allowed the fireballs to have some vertical motion on the second. Getting the hammer in was an impressive technical accomplishment (a missile and a ball, sharing a 1lk with two sprites, one of which is color-striped at single-line resolution), but it required lots of RAM and ROM that could IMHO have been better used for other things.

 

I wonder if anyone would like an 8K Superchip version of Donkey Kong with the above features added?

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Again, those are the merits of a "good game." It has nothing to do with being a "good translation." I'm sorry if you can't understand that.

 

Tac-Scan: Good game/Bad translation

Steeplechase: Bad game/Good translation

Millipede: Good game/Good translation

 

 

IMHO, Millipede is an awful translation. The arcade is a great game. The 2600 version is good, but I seldom give it a second look. It has blocky graphics, and lacks bona fide track ball control.

To do justice, Millipede needs more hardware power than the 2600 can provide.

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Still, for a 2600 version it's not unplayable and retains the essential game mechanics of the arcade version.

The same can be said for Pac-Man! It doesn't matter which games you like, the fact is that both Solar Fox and Tac-Scan had the majority of their play elements removed.

 

So that's apparently fine, but everyone gets into a snit about Pac-Man just because the sounds and colors are wrong.

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To do justice, Millipede needs more hardware power than the 2600 can provide.

 

Millipede would be better with a Trak-Ball, and it may not look like much visually, but it is amazingly playable. I had a girlfriend who fell in love with that game in 1998 and went on to marry me. :)

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I've always liked the fact that the 2600 ports are different then the arcade. Sure, some of them are not the best, but others (solar fox for example) are more fun IMHO. If all of the games for the classic systems were mirror images of the coin-ops, where would be the fun of playing and collecting them?

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Wow, you guys are tough. Millipede is brilliant for a 2600 version

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on what makes a "good" translation

 

Maybe we can start a new thread that ranks the arcade ports listing what is missing and what the pros and cons are for each game. I wonder what would come out on top.

 

Pong?

 

I'm sure someone will find something wrong with that one too! :)

Edited by godzillajoe
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I honestly don't think Coleco purposely makes games bad for the Intellivision either. Mouse Trap, Venture, and Donkey Kong Jr. (not Donkey Kong) are actually pretty darn good. I also enjoy the 2600 ports of Carnival and Venture. I like Mouse Trap 2600, though I wish it had more intact. The darkness mode is nice, though.

Edited by BrianC
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Donkey Kong was the first independent (as in non-Mattel) game ever made for the Intellivision. Give the programmer some credit for breaking new ground. And for 1982, Donky Kong was pretty damn sweet. This was before Pitfall and Mario Bros and all the other games that latecomers compare it to. The 2600 programmer went on to make Keystone Kapers a year later. He learned a few things while making with Donkey Kong, the first climbing game for the 2600.

 

Even Activision could only achieve carbon copies of 2600 Pitfall and Stampede for their first Intellivision attempts. You have to look at the timeline when evaluating if these games were "as good as they should be."

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Donkey Kong was the first independent (as in non-Mattel) game ever made for the Intellivision. Give the programmer some credit for breaking new ground. And for 1982, Donky Kong was pretty damn sweet. This was before Pitfall and Mario Bros and all the other games that latecomers compare it to. The 2600 programmer went on to make Keystone Kapers a year later. He learned a few things while making with Donkey Kong, the first climbing game for the 2600.

 

Even Activision could only achieve carbon copies of 2600 Pitfall and Stampede for their first Intellivision attempts. You have to look at the timeline when evaluating if these games were "as good as they should be."

 

I know the timeline. Venture and Mouse Trap were also released in 1982 and turned out much better than Donkey Kong. Imagic's first games for the Intellivsion also came out in 1982 and their games turned out very well, despite how they were new to the hardware. Activision ported games to a bunch of different systems and quite a few of them only have minor differences from the 2600 ones (though some like Pitfall 2 5200/800 and River Raid 5200/800/C64 have some major ones). BTW, I try to evaulate games on their own merits, not based on if they are "as good as they should be".

 

I understand that you feel that Pac-Man is a fine translation of the 2600 game, but I don't. I even played the 8k version that looks closer to the arcade game and I still don't care for it much. It's not the color scheme or the fact it's different from the arcade I don't like. The maze design is lacking and I feel the gameplay of the 2600 Pac-Man is lacking.

Edited by BrianC
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I understand that you feel that Pac-Man is a fine translation of the 2600 game, but I don't.

2600 Pac-Man is a pathetic and miserable translation. Almost as bad as Tac-Scan. The difference is that the 2600's pathetic version of Tac-Scan still was fun, if ridiculously simple for a late-82 release.

 

YOUR OPINIONS ARE NOT FACTS! Solar Fox isn't a good translation just because you like the game. The majority of play elements were removed. It's no big deal that you no longer can fire lasers? I guess Stargate would be just as accurate if you couldn't shoot either, just pick up humanoids. Tac-Scan is unreal. Everything has been taken out! It's like releasing Space Jockey but calling it Defender because your ship kind of moves in the same way.

 

My point is that almost none of you can look objectively on this. The only translations that bother you are of the games you liked. And at this point you see the 2600 library as one big glob. For those who lived through it month by month, cart by cart, the perspective is entirely different.

 

Imagic's first games for the Intellivsion also came out in 1982 and their games turned out very well, despite how they were new to the hardware. Activision ported games to a bunch of different systems and quite a few of them only have minor differences from the 2600 ones
Imagic hired away some of Mattel's programmers. That made things easier, didn't it? Those great efforts from Activision and Atarisoft? Former Mattel programmers as well.
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YOUR OPINIONS ARE NOT FACTS! Solar Fox isn't a good translation just because you like the game. The majority of play elements were removed. It's no big deal that you no longer can fire lasers? I guess Stargate would be just as accurate if you couldn't shoot either, just pick up humanoids. Tac-Scan is unreal. Everything has been taken out! It's like releasing Space Jockey but calling it Defender because your ship kind of moves in the same way.

 

Your opinions aren't facts either. I'm not trying to state my opinions as facts, I'm trying to get you to respect them! You also keep assuming that I dont know stuff that I actually know. I know that Activision, Atarisoft, and Imagic hired some former Mattel programmers, but some of the Imagic games weren't handled by former Mattel programmers. If I read correctly, the programmer of Demon Attack had to find a way to figure out how to get the game working on the hardware by scratch.

 

BTW, I like quite a few arcade translations that are different from the originals and I find the assumption that I find the 2600 library to be one big glob to be insulting. I also like the arcade Tac-Scan quite a bit. As you said, Solar Fox isn't a good translation just becuase I like it. I find it to be good translation becuase it manages to translate the game in a way that works on the 2600 while still keeping the fast pace and fun of the original. Honestly, I don't know how to explain why I think Solar Fox and Tac-Scan are good translations from the originals in a way that you won't scoff at, but it's not just because I think they are good games like you keep assuming. In fact, the way you keep assuming things and making generalizations is the reason I keep replying to you. It's annoying when someone keeps coming in and assuming incorrect things just becuase of a difference of opinion.

Edited by BrianC
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You look at the color red and see blue. I can't help you.

 

Ah hell . . .

some of the Imagic games weren't handled by former Mattel programmers. If I read correctly, the programmer of Demon Attack had to find a way to figure out how to get the game working on the hardware by scratch.
Mattel's rebel programmers weren't allowed to use their "propreitary knowledge" of the EXEC, so they had to come up with new techniques, like every other third party programmer for Intellivision. The job is a bit easier when you've been working for Mattel and/or APH, the designer of the system.

 

I don't know how to explain why I think Solar Fox and Tac-Scan are good translations from the originals in a way that you won't scoff at, but it's not just because I think they are good games like you keep assuming
It's obvious to a child that the arcade games are vastly different from the 2600 versions. It's simply not arguable, which is why you keep repeating the same bland generalizations. Edited by NovaXpress
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