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To All Non-Programmer Idea Peddlers


vdub_bobby

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On 2/25/2021 at 5:49 AM, batari said:

In around 2005ish, before this thread went up, I actually found those old design documents from 20 years before and was working to adapt the game idea to the 2600. Then something very surprising happened. You were wondering how these bad ideas can be deterimental? Well, a non-programmer idea peddler made a post on AtariAge. He described a vaguely similar game to mine, with the same title! The fact that his idea was very poorly executed with horrid MS Paint graphics that would never be possible on a 2600 mattered a lot less than the fact that if I created my own game with a similar concept and the same title I had come up with years before, this peddler would assume I stole his idea and I could never prove otherwise. I felt I had little choice but to abandon my own game idea on the spot and never looked back. My game would never be created because of this idea peddler.

 

What I came to realize is that many ideas actually are quite similar. It would be ignorant to think that I am the only one who thought of a Paperboy video game, or that my poorly-thought-out and ignorant drawings of the game concept that I was going to send to Atari were of any value whatsoever, to anyone.

Yes the other researcher had similar ideas and was thus a parallel researcher having developed them independently  -

 

I've developed technology ideas in parallel and found the parallel researcher very gracious and informative discussing and confirming parallel development.

 

Parallel development is cool because both researchers get credit for their ideas - I'd love to see you finish the game and share the design documents! :) 

 

On 2/27/2021 at 9:05 PM, batari said:

Lots of people seem to want to know how to program video games, and that's fine. However, I've had many approach me about it. Usually they ask me, "How do you program a video game?" I am not sure the question is really answerable at all when it's always asked by someone who's never typed a line of code in their entire lives.

 

The first time someone asked me this, I couldn't really answer at all. By the second time I responded by saying that programming video games isn't that much different than programming in general, so if they want to learn how, they should start by taking a programming class. Naturally they don't like the answer, as it seems they assumed programming a video game was about as difficult as, say, programming a VCR. As if you press a few buttons, type in a few "codes" and a fully-formed video game appears on the screen

 

But imagine if they could?

 

I found your ASCII art designers and batari BASIC to be very inspiring for creating SuperCharger BASIC - in the 80's I wrote an ASCII art designer for Microsoft Extended BASIC in BASIC and shared the technique in a beginners column in a Computer Magazine but your ideas inspired me further with the idea to create ASCII art designers and a Sequencer that could function separately on their own like the stand-alone programming environments LiteBrite and BigTrak:

 

LiteBrite.thumb.jpg.de6a21f883c26fd545870f3fea55bbee.jpg  BigTrak.jpg.7ec69ed0cdf46e882fbf308184f5198e.jpg

 

These toys were educational in a way where players learned applicable programming techniques.

 

People with ideas could use their hidden programming skills to create audio visuals on the Atari 2600 with no code:

virtualworld
............................................................................................
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...xxxx......xxxx...........................................................................
..xXXXXx....xXXXXx..........................................................................
.XX.xx.XX..XX.xx.XX.........................................................................
.XxxxxxXX..XxxxxxXX.........................................................................
.x.XXXX.x..x.XXXX.x.........................................................................
.XX....XX..XX....XX.........................................................................
..xxxxxx....xxxxxx..........................................................................
...xxxx......xxxx...........................................................................
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sprites
..xxxx..
.xXXXXx.
XX.xx.XX
XxxxxxXX
x.XXXX.x
XX....XX
.xxxxxx.
..xxxx..

chiptunes
8, 24, 8, 20, 8
10,24, 10, 20, 8
6, 5, 4, 12, 5
12, 9, 12, 7, 4
8, 24, 8, 20, 8
10,24, 10, 20, 15
8, 24, 8, 20, 8
10,24, 10, 20, 8
0,0,0,0,0

7, 5, 4, 12, 15
7, 17, 4, 19, 15
7, 5, 4, 12, 15
7, 17, 4, 15, 15
0, 0, 7, 0, 15
0,0,0,0,0

8, 24, 8, 20, 4
10,24, 10, 20, 4
8, 24, 8, 20, 4
10,24, 10, 20, 4
8, 24, 8, 20, 4
10,24, 10, 20, 4
8, 24, 8, 20, 4
10,24, 10, 20, 4
8, 24, 8, 20, 4
10,24, 10, 20, 4
8, 24, 8, 20, 4
10,24, 10, 20, 4
8, 24, 8, 20, 4
10,24, 10, 20, 4
8, 24, 8, 20, 4
10,24, 10, 20, 4
0,0,0,0,0

3,24, 13, 20,4
2, 24, 13, 20, 6
3,24, 13, 20, 4
2, 24, 3, 20, 6
3,24, 2, 20,4
2, 24, 3, 20, 6
7,24, 5, 20, 4
3, 24, 5, 20, 6
1,24, 7, 20, 4
4,24, 6, 20, 6
4, 24, 8, 20, 4
4,24, 6, 20, 6
4, 24, 6, 20, 4
0,0,0,0,0

The audio-visuals from this type of programming are limited and would not be considered a game but could help convey game ideas and inspire the researcher with those ideas to start learning BASIC to add game functionality to them.

 

Maybe another dev tools creator will be inspired to take this idea further and create an Atari Development Kit, that allows loops and comparisons with no traditional code.

 

The challenge may be to identify what other types of programmers, non-programmers are.

 

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1 hour ago, Mr SQL said:

Yes the other researcher had similar ideas and was thus a parallel researcher having developed them independently  -

 

I've developed technology ideas in parallel and found the parallel researcher very gracious and informative discussing and confirming parallel development.

 

Parallel development is cool because both researchers get credit for their ideas - I'd love to see you finish the game and share the design documents! :)

To call someone who has a half-baked idea (or should I say, someone who doesn't even have the measuring cups or the actual ingredients) a researcher is being pretty generous. I'd say that giving credit for parallel development would be like if an award-winning cake-baker had to crowd shoulder-to-shoulder on the first-place podium with someone who wrote, on a stained, torn-up piece of paper, with terrible handwriting, a "recipe" that says, "Cake in the shape of the Eiffel Tower: Add sugar, macaroni, flour and ????" Then after making sure everyone saw the "recipe" he said, "Do cakes have flour? I'm not a baker or an artist and I don't know how to make it stand up, that's all your job, I'm the idea guy" and then produced a horrid pencil sketch that looks like a drowned rat on a stick.

 

Now if someone actually had artistic skills and could definitely help decorate a cake, making it look better than the baker could, had demonstrable skill and a high-level knowledge of baking? And, had some other clear talent that added significantly, had a strong work ethic, accompanying the baker in the kitchen, fully knowing hat the baker takes the credit for a win and might mention the helper in an award acceptance speech, then we might have something. However, it seems we saw far less of this kind of person than the "idea guy" above.

 

As for the game, we will see how it goes. I have active projects that need addressing first :)

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27 minutes ago, batari said:

To call someone who has a half-baked idea (or should I say, someone who doesn't even have the measuring cups or the actual ingredients) a researcher is being pretty generous. I'd say that giving credit for parallel development would be like if an award-winning cake-baker had to crowd shoulder-to-shoulder on the first-place podium with someone who wrote, on a stained, torn-up piece of paper, with terrible handwriting, a "recipe" that says, "Cake in the shape of the Eiffel Tower: Add sugar, macaroni, flour and ????" Then after making sure everyone saw the "recipe" he said, "Do cakes have flour? I'm not a baker or an artist and I don't know how to make it stand up, that's all your job, I'm the idea guy" and then produced a horrid pencil sketch that looks like a drowned rat on a stick.

 

Now if someone actually had artistic skills and could definitely help decorate a cake, making it look better than the baker could, had demonstrable skill and a high-level knowledge of baking? And, had some other clear talent that added significantly, had a strong work ethic, accompanying the baker in the kitchen, fully knowing hat the baker takes the credit for a win and might mention the helper in an award acceptance speech, then we might have something. However, it seems we saw far less of this kind of person than the "idea guy" above.

My job is to add the sprinkles. :) 

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4 hours ago, batari said:

To call someone who has a half-baked idea (or should I say, someone who doesn't even have the measuring cups or the actual ingredients) a researcher is being pretty generous. I'd say that giving credit for parallel development would be like if an award-winning cake-baker had to crowd shoulder-to-shoulder on the first-place podium with someone who wrote, on a stained, torn-up piece of paper, with terrible handwriting, a "recipe" that says, "Cake in the shape of the Eiffel Tower: Add sugar, macaroni, flour and ????" Then after making sure everyone saw the "recipe" he said, "Do cakes have flour? I'm not a baker or an artist and I don't know how to make it stand up, that's all your job, I'm the idea guy" and then produced a horrid pencil sketch that looks like a drowned rat on a stick.

 

Now if someone actually had artistic skills and could definitely help decorate a cake, making it look better than the baker could, had demonstrable skill and a high-level knowledge of baking? And, had some other clear talent that added significantly, had a strong work ethic, accompanying the baker in the kitchen, fully knowing hat the baker takes the credit for a win and might mention the helper in an award acceptance speech, then we might have something. However, it seems we saw far less of this kind of person than the "idea guy" above.

 

As for the game, we will see how it goes. I have active projects that need addressing first :)

Very cool I'm looking forward to hearing more about this game! :) 

 

Your description of the idea-guy cracks me up but I think even when the idea is half-baked it could still be a great idea.

 

Sometimes the inverse can happen too and a finished game gets created when the idea is only half-baked, or has potential for further baking -

 

I think the developer of Frisco may have felt Pengo as an idea was not fully baked even though the implementation was polished; I felt that way after playing the Frisco port for a few rounds and comparing them. 

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  • 9 months later...

I can not help it but I have to BASH this topic of discussion.

 

To start off here

The first post discourages any ideas from cropping up at all. Afterall the most unfriendly community known as romhacking.net has a thread called idea's from non programers which is suprisingly intentionally encouraging people to work together in a forum where no one ever gets along what so ever.

 

Here at atariage we all get along really well yet the message here is do not post your idea's and if you do be sure to put more effort in then just your thoughts because you contribute less then nothing.

 

Programmers tend to have more projects then they have time which is true but programers in general look for idea's because they themselves are generally not creative which is why we get really decent arcade ports recreated for these old system's. These games are really cool but there not truly a unique all new game. New games do happen but there not as common as a arcade remake for console.

 

I am not trying to tear anyone down here I just think this whole thread is disparaging and discouraging amazing ideas from cropping up.

 

Many people have used ny udeas for romhacks that have come to fruition. Kaze Emanuar woukd have never created Mario 64 online with out my idea's nor woukd Zelda a missing link would have been made either. I have also given amazing ideas for the Super Mario Kart workshop and so far all of my ideas for it have been implumented. Sure I have helped with certain things but I am not a programmer and changing a game from PAL to NTSC was something I contributed but I found a way to do it without programming it in. Again this shiws non programers also have the abulity to think on a different level.

 

Another. example people who create really good CGI make crap story and seek out story wrighters to put their skills to use which is why we see books renvisioned into a movie.

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1 hour ago, overgrouth said:

I can not help it but I have to BASH this topic of discussion.

Watched it too? :) 

1 hour ago, overgrouth said:

 

...programers in general look for idea's because they themselves are generally not creative which is why we get really decent arcade ports recreated for these old system's. These games are really cool but there not truly a unique all new game. New games do happen but there not as common as a arcade remake for console.

That's correct in my case too.

1 hour ago, overgrouth said:

I am not trying to tear anyone down here I just think this whole thread is disparaging and discouraging amazing ideas from cropping up.

The problem are not the ideas, but how they were frequently presented when this thread was created. Way too often people came around pompous and demanding, with very rudimentary ideas. However, there were a few exceptions (@salstadt) and here developers were cooperating.

 

Well presented and thought out ideas will always be welcome.

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Jentzsch I am really glad to read that especially from you and what you did for me with your Sadoom! Joke evolving into Sadoom!+

 

I am certainly thankful. Would love to work together on other projects. I been trying to see if there is a way to make indie 500 4 player but I bet that is a LONG shot.

 

If I knew how to code I would present some ideas here but I know more about the super Nintendo and I am self tought to edit things hackers will not touch. We look up to eachother in the Super Mario Kart work shop. Several people are relying on me to do the things they can not. So when it comes to the Atari I think it is unfair I can not offer anything outside of my thought process. I need to learn.

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We are not asking for ANY technical details, only a basic understanding of the limitations of the 2600. The idea should be based on that (e.g. 50 sprites at once or a hires background won't work). The best ideas fit perfectly to the limitations of the system. Also it should be something new, not just repeating or varying existing stuff. And then the idea should be presented in a way that one can see the full picture (e.g. how should it look like (graphics!), how should it play, are there any extras or bonusses, how will the difficulty ramp up etc. 

 

Even if that's perfectly laid down, you should not expect that anyone will jump. Your idea must be more attractive to the developer than anything else on his list, and he must have enough free time. And if you are lucky and find a developer, you should be open to changes. After all the developer knows the system limitations best.

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I think a person has to be bring something remarkable to a project. Be genuinely great at something. Have a skill and a solid understanding of the entire development process. If you won't be a valuable team member, your game idea isn't worth anyone's time.

 

You'll know if you are really good at something coming in, by the way. Take something off my plate. Be a partner. I don't want promises that you'll try hard (trying isn't enough), I need someone to make the job easier.

 

You'll also need to be flexible and willing to step outside your comfort zone. Hobby projects happen in our spare time--and we're all busy people; if you love your idea, you'll go the extra mile to drag it across the finish line (long after the initial excitement wears off).

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At the time this thread was started, it seemed like there was a number of people saying things that sounded like this to a programmer...

 

I've got a great idea for a game. The player runs around the moon collecting things that help in his quest, and he needs to shoot robots that are trying to infiltrate the colony. I made a whole bunch of 9 x 9 full color players and enemies, drew a 1024 x 800 epic realistic looking background, and now all I need is for someone to program this. It should be easy, because as you can see, I've done all the hard work already. I was thinking it was a 2D game, but if it's easier to program, I'd be fine with a 3D game.

 

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A free exchange of ideas and concepts would always have been encouraged, and still would be, no matter how good or bad. Even if the ideas are not great, people can be educated about the limitations of the system and what makes for a good game.

 

The biggest problem wasn't that the ideas were poorly thought out (though poorly-thought out ideas are pretty useless).

 

The key words here to remember are "free exchange."

 

The problem was that the idea peddlers would come on here with the thought that their ideas were incredibly valuable. They expected programmers to be more than eager to jump on board and work with them, working tirelessly for absolutely nothing in return until release of the game, after which the idea peddler expected to make a lot of money and maybe would share a tiny fraction of it with the programmer. The idea peddlers not only vastly overinflated the value of their ideas, they also vastly devalued the time and skill involved in programming.

 

As suggested in this thread, some were so convinced they were sitting on a gold mine that wouldn't even share details about the game because they thought someone would steal their "valuable" ideas.

 

As could be predicted, many of the ideas were not only practically worthless, most weren't even technically feasible.

 

One reason why this thread rings true for me was when an idea peddler posted an idea for a game that was somewhat similar to one I was already working on, and that caused me to cease working on the game at all, lest the peddler assume I stole the idea. So in my case the "idea" actually stopped a game already in progress. Never mind that the peddler's "idea" was not even possible and differed in many key ways to my own idea.

 

If the peddler had instead just posted a idea without all these expectations of massive "profit$" while not thinking the idea itself was far more valuable than any programmer ever could be, then of course it would have been fine.

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  • 11 months later...
On 1/25/2006 at 9:23 PM, vdub_bobby said:

I'm going to try to definitively answer this type of post once and for all (yeah, right):

 

(Ahem)

 

To All Non-Programmer Idea Peddlers:

 

Programmers already have more ideas than they know what do do with; without any of yours. They don't need your ideas. Probably most of them don't want your ideas. Most game programmers have more ideas already than they have time to begin, let alone complete.

 

That said, a good, well-thought out, well-presented idea is worth looking at, always.

 

So if you want a programmer to even consider your idea for 30 seconds, here's what you need to do:

 

1. Present a concrete, good idea with lots of visual aids. Writing a game takes hours and hours of work. If you want a coder to even consider, for a minute, dedicating that kind of time, you had better put in some serious time of your own preparing your idea. Time measured in hours. Make mock screenshots. Design some sprites. Learn the capabilities of the machine you want the game written for and fit your idea to them. It isn't easy to understand the Stella guide if you aren't a coder, but if you want somebody to even glance sideways at your idea you better be willing to put in the time to at least understand a little of it. Do some legwork and demonstrate it. Spend some time working out your idea on paper; playtesting it to make sure it works.

 

2. Present a compelling reason why a coder should take on the project *other* than the fact that you think it would be really cool. Does your idea fill an underserved niche in the 2600's library? Is it a completely unique concept? Are lots of people clamoring for a game of this type? Does it present a unique, fun challenge?

 

3. Be humble. You are asking for far, far, far more than you are giving or will ever contribute. Coders already work for pennies/hour working on their own ideas, if that. You want the programmer to do something for you, essentially for free? Don't make demands.

 

4. Be flexible. Be willing to put in yet more time reworking screenshots, rethinking game mechanics, designing different sprites.

 

The gold standard here is Adam Tierney (salstadt here at AA). Find some of the threads he started to publicize his own ideas and see what he did. See especially the Prince of Persia thread, and see how much work he put into that, over a period of weeks. You don't have to be the artist he is, but you better be willing to make up the difference in sweat.

 

What's a good idea? Can't give an exact definition, but here are some starters:

 

1. It is unique. Either absolutely unique or unique to the platform.

2. It has a tested, proven game mechanic. Which is fun.

3. It uses the capabilities of the machine it is designed for well.

4. It is fun to more people than just you.

 

The most important thing is to DO SOME WORK. If your idea doesn't have some mock screenshots, then it is worthless. Period.

While I get why you did this, the sheer arrogance and actually quite a lot of ignorance here, going about calling people suggesting ideas "peddlers", is astounding.

 

I think you must think that programmers are the be-all and end-all of [good] game creation or something, but I have to tell you that most of the coder stuff I see in the homebrew scene is utter crap. You can't make magic based on pure maths and programming alone.

 

So, yeah, while designers, artists and musicians need programers to make any of that other stuff turn into an actual working game, let's not pretend those other guys aren't just as essential too, at least if you actually care one bit about creating something good. Because, I can tell you this for a fact, the amount of individual programmers churning out amazing games all on their own isn't a very high figure. There's just as many programmers churning out garbage as there are people suggesting the same old ideas, and that includes many actual released homebrew and indie titles too. But, what is a bit more of a rare thing is people who actually have genuinely good ideas, artists who are actually talented, musicians who can actually compose good music, and indeed, programmers who can actually do more than either the very basics or who actually understand what makes a good game beyond math.

 

Also, you posted this in "Homebrew Discussion", not "Programmer Snob Elitists Unite", so stop peddling this God complex that guys like you seem to have. No one is forcing anyone to do anything, so, just as everyone has to put up with the endless drivel spewed out by all the hotshot creators out there, mostly programmers imagining they are actually game designers and artist and musicians, so too can you and your ilk put up with some actual designers, artists and musicians in here talking about game creation and trying to find out ways to get stuff done, and maybe even asking people if they'd be willing to test some stuff for them sometimes.

 

Can't believe I even have to point out stuff like this.

 

PS. Before you get on that programmer high horse, I was a level designer on GTA IV and Jimmy at Rockstar North, i.e. a programmer, coded seven released iOS/Android/Amazon games using Game Maker (that have been downloaded more than 80,000 times overall), had a Steam project Greenlit, built and coded a VR fps game demo in Unity, and am currently concepting a SNES game in Game Maker 8.1 too (designing, creating the art for and programming in the GML language). And, just to add stuff that isn't about programming, I was also an artist/animator at Rare on the likes of Donkey Kong Country Color and Banjo Kazooie: Grunty's Revenge, was a lead artist and then production designer at an indie games company, a producer at a games based learning company, and have held a couple of other random positions in the industry over the years. I've also released my own VR novella on Amazon called Presence too (and a short story called Outside as well). I'm just not a SNES programmer. What a crime to be in here aking about SNES development without being a SNES programmer, and, God help us all, maybe even putting forward some ideas and stuff!

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6 minutes ago, Kirk_Johnston said:

While I get why you did this, the sheer arrogance and actually quite a lot of ignorance here is astounding. I think you think that programmers are the be-all and end-all of [good] game creation, but I have to tell you that most of the coder stuff I see in the homebrew scene is utter crap. You can't make magic based on pure maths and programming alone. So, yeah, while designers, artists and musicians need programers to make any of that other stuff turn into an actual working game, let's not pretend those other guys aren't just as essential too, at least if you actually care one bit about creating something good. Because, I can tell you this for a fact, the amount of individual programmers churning out amazing games all on their own isn't a very high figure. There's just as many programmers churning out garbage as there are people suggesting the same old ideas, but what is a bit more of a rare thing is people who actually have genuinely good ideas, artists who are actually talented, musicians who can actually compose good music, and indeed, programmers who can actually do more than either the basics or who actually understand what makes a good game beyond math. Also, you posted this in "Homebrew Discussion", not "Programmer Snob Elitists Unite", so stop peddling this God complex guys like you seem to have. No one is forcing anyone to do anything, so, just as everyone has to put up with the endless drivel spewed out by all the hotshot creators out there, mostly programmers, so to can you and your ilk put up with some designers, artists and musicians in here talking about game creation and trying to find out ways to get stuff done.

 

PS. Before you get on that programmer high horse, I was a level designer on GTA IV and Jimmy at Rockstar North, i.e. a programmer, coded seven released iOS/Android/Amazon games using Game Maker (that have been downloaded more than 80,000 times overall), had a Steam project Greenlit,  built a VR fps game demo in Unity, and am currently concepting a SNES game in Game Maker 8.1 too (designing, creating the art for and programming in the GML language). I'm just not a SNES programmer. What a crime to be here aking about SNES development without being a SNES programmer, and, God help us all, putting forward some ideas and stuff!

All good points, not sure he will even bother to respond as you are to a 16 year old post? 🤔He probably got the message from most of the replies in this thread already. 🤷🏼‍♂️🤣

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38 minutes ago, OldSchoolRetroGamer said:

All good points, not sure he will even bother to respond as you are to a 16 year old post? 🤔He probably got the message from most of the replies in this thread already. 🤷🏼‍♂️🤣

Yeah, I'm relatively new here, so just saw this. But this is something I've noticed a lot over the last couple of years in various SNES development forums as I've been learning about this stuff, where so many programmers have this real snobby elitist "program or get out" or "program or it doesn't count" attitude, and I really don't like it one bit. They're not helping the SNES dev scene grow and mature, which is maybe part of the reason why it's lagging so far behind the Genesis dev scene as I type. Everyone is welcome in the game development community as far as I'm concerned.

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36 minutes ago, Kirk_Johnston said:

While I get why you did this, the sheer arrogance and actually quite a lot of ignorance here, going about calling people suggesting ideas "peddlers", is astounding.

 

I think you must think that programmers are the be-all and end-all of [good] game creation or something, but I have to tell you that most of the coder stuff I see in the homebrew scene is utter crap. You can't make magic based on pure maths and programming alone.

 

So, yeah, while designers, artists and musicians need programers to make any of that other stuff turn into an actual working game, let's not pretend those other guys aren't just as essential too, at least if you actually care one bit about creating something good. Because, I can tell you this for a fact, the amount of individual programmers churning out amazing games all on their own isn't a very high figure. There's just as many programmers churning out garbage as there are people suggesting the same old ideas, and that included many actual released homebrew and indie titles too. But what is a bit more of a rare thing is people who actually have genuinely good ideas, artists who are actually talented, musicians who can actually compose good music, and indeed, programmers who can actually do more than either the very basics or who actually understand what makes a good game beyond math.

 

Also, you posted this in "Homebrew Discussion", not "Programmer Snob Elitists Unite", so stop peddling this God complex that guys like you seem to have. No one is forcing anyone to do anything, so, just as everyone has to put up with the endless drivel spewed out by all the hotshot creators out there, mostly programmers imagining they are actually game designers and artist and musicians, so too can you and your ilk put up with some actual designers, artists and musicians in here talking about game creation and trying to find out ways to get stuff done, and maybe even asking people if they'd be willing to test some stuff for them sometimes.

 

Can't believe I even have to point out stuff like this.

 

PS. Before you get on that programmer high horse, I was a level designer on GTA IV and Jimmy at Rockstar North, i.e. a programmer, coded seven released iOS/Android/Amazon games using Game Maker (that have been downloaded more than 80,000 times overall), had a Steam project Greenlit,  built a VR fps game demo in Unity, and am currently concepting a SNES game in Game Maker 8.1 too (designing, creating the art for and programming in the GML language). I'm just not a SNES programmer. What a crime to be here aking about SNES development without being a SNES programmer, and, God help us all, putting forward some ideas and stuff!

 

Before my actual reply, I have learning disabilities, so I try to make games for the Atari 2600 using batari Basic. I can't learn Assembly since I can't remember what all the abbreviations mean and other things you need to remember. When it comes to BASIC, I learn something for 5 minutes, then put it on my web site and copy and paste when I need it in the future since that knowledge will leave my head soon after "learning" it. I'm extremely bad at math, but I plan to make a pinball game one of these days with help I can get from the forums if I don't run out of time and die before then.

 

Here's my reply:

 

Your post has probably been answered 20 times already in this thread. Over the years, people will pop up who have a sense of entitlement. They'll have unexceptional ideas that they think are super duper extra special that aren't even completely formed. They'll often not put any work into it, and basically demand that some programmer make an earth-shattering game based on their amorphous, lazy ideas. A lot of them have delusions of grandeur and think their ideas are much better than they actually are. Some of them are like those people who seemed to be tone deaf and talentless that they used to make fun of on "American Idol."

 

youtu.be/7_Ybl0Qvves

 

As others have said in this thread, people who know how to program have a boatload of ideas, they're just usually too busy to make them all as they try to feed their families and keep a roof over their heads. Many "idea peddlers" are comfortably living at home with mommy and daddy, have very few responsibilities, and have an overabundance of free time.

 

Someone who doesn't have learning disabilities or brain damage could spend all of that free time learning how to program instead of demanding that others do all of the hard work for them for free.

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9 minutes ago, Random Terrain said:

Someone who doesn't have learning disabilities or brain damage could spend all of that free time learning how to program instead of demanding that others do all of the hard work for them for free.

Very true. 

 

Similarly, I think a lot of programmers could probably admit to themselves that that's all they're actually good at and should maybe leave the rest of the game development to the people with the talent in those other areas, which means maybe not just wasting time with self-indulgent amateur-hour game projects that very few people but they and some other programmers truly care about, accepting their place in the grand scheme of things, maybe having a little modesty and humility, and actually putting in more effort to work with those other people that are part of the complete game development process to create something of actual worth, unless, of course, they're totally happy just doing their own thing.

 

But, what those programmers shouldn't do is act all high and mighty if they haven't created and released a great game themselves, because, imo, a crap finished game made by some genius programmer is no better than some same-old idea by some wanna-be game designer, artist, musician. And, to be honest, we've too much of all of those things and nowhere near enough good games or even genuinely cool demos to enjoy on the SNES. Sure, there's a million Super Mario World ROM hacks, and some of them are even pretty good, but there's more to the SNES than that.

 

I'll tell you this though, if people wanna exist in a vacuum and sit atop their pedestals creating just for their own egos, the SNES development community is going to continue going nowhere.

 

PS. Programming is literally no more hard work than game design, game art, game music, or whatever--everyone puts in the hours they put in, and that's the amount of work that should be measure here--so let's not paint a false picture that is otherwise. There's just people who are good at one thing and people who are good at something else, and each person is free to choose which part they want to work on. And all are worthy, and all need the others at some point in 99% of cases, if the intention is to create something actually good.

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8 minutes ago, Kirk_Johnston said:

Very true. 

 

Similarly, I think a lot of programmers could probably admit to themselves that that's all they're actually good at and should maybe leave the rest of the game development to the people with the talent in those other areas, which means maybe not just wasting time with self-indulgent amateur-hour game projects that very few people but they and some other programmers truly care about, accepting their place in the grand scheme of things, maybe having a little modesty and humility, and actually putting in more effort to work with those other people that are part of the complete game development process to create something of actual worth, unless, of course, they're totally happy just doing their own thing.

 

But, what those programmers shouldn't do is act all high and mighty if they haven't created and released a great game themselves, because, imo, a crap finished game made by some genius programmer is no better than some same-old idea by some wanna-be game designer, artist, musician. And, to be honest, we've too much of all of those things and nowhere near enough good games or even genuinely cool demos to enjoy on the SNES. Sure, there's a million Super Mario World ROM hacks, and some of them are even pretty good, but there's more to the SNES than that.

 

I'll tell you this though, if people wanna exist in a vacuum and sit atop their pedestals creating just for their own egos, the SNES development community is going to continue going nowhere.

 

PS. Programming is literally no more hard work than game design, game art, game music, or whatever--everyone puts in the hours they put in, and that's the amount of work that should be measure here--so let's not paint a false picture that is otherwise. There's just people who are good at one thing and people who are good at something else, and each person is free to choose which part they want to work on. And all are worthy, and all need the others at some point in 99% of cases, if the intention is to create something actually good.

 

Didn't all of the original SNES games have teams that worked on them? Professional artists, musicians, programmers, and so on? Some of the best looking Atari 2600 games used artists to draw the sprites. Talented people getting together to create something special is a good thing, but those "American Idol" style weirdos I mentioned who are delusional and demand that someone bring their half-formed generic ideas to life for free should probably find something else to do.

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6 hours ago, Kirk_Johnston said:

Very true. 

 

Similarly, I think a lot of programmers could probably admit to themselves that that's all they're actually good at and should maybe leave the rest of the game development to the people with the talent in those other areas, which means maybe not just wasting time with self-indulgent amateur-hour game projects that very few people but they and some other programmers truly care about, accepting their place in the grand scheme of things, maybe having a little modesty and humility, and actually putting in more effort to work with those other people that are part of the complete game development process to create something of actual worth, unless, of course, they're totally happy just doing their own thing.

 

But, what those programmers shouldn't do is act all high and mighty if they haven't created and released a great game themselves, because, imo, a crap finished game made by some genius programmer is no better than some same-old idea by some wanna-be game designer, artist, musician. And, to be honest, we've too much of all of those things and nowhere near enough good games or even genuinely cool demos to enjoy on the SNES. Sure, there's a million Super Mario World ROM hacks, and some of them are even pretty good, but there's more to the SNES than that.

 

I'll tell you this though, if people wanna exist in a vacuum and sit atop their pedestals creating just for their own egos, the SNES development community is going to continue going nowhere.

 

PS. Programming is literally no more hard work than game design, game art, game music, or whatever--everyone puts in the hours they put in, and that's the amount of work that should be measure here--so let's not paint a false picture that is otherwise. There's just people who are good at one thing and people who are good at something else, and each person is free to choose which part they want to work on. And all are worthy, and all need the others at some point in 99% of cases, if the intention is to create something actually good.

I get the impression that you are a bit biased by your experience in the SNES community. As a programmer, I can assure you that I know the difference between good and bad programming. Also I have learned quite a bit about game design etc. over the years. I know where my strengths are and where not. And as far as I can tell, this is no different for most of the better developers here a AtariAge. Probably that's one of the reason why we are doing that many ports. Note: I am only closely watching the Atari 2600 development scene, so my overview is a bit limited. 

 

Anyway, by far the most games released on cart here at AtariAge are the result of people cooperating and using their personal strengths. Only very few (close to zero) are talented enough to do everything on their own. But the bottleneck is almost always the programmer. Maybe because the 2600 is so special to program for, not sure. This is quite different for artists, especially if they can design further away from the console's limitations (e.g. packaging). Artists who know these limitations quite well, so that they can work a lot on their own, are extremely rare. And the same is true for game designers. And here comes a problem, because if you know too little about the hardware limitations, you cannot design well for it. 

 

In the end, you have lot more people with ideas than people who can implement them. Even if you only consider the feasible ideas. Does that make a developer something special? Yes, because he is the bottleneck. But it doesn't make him any better than artists etc.

 

The root cause for this topic is, that the ratio of good and bad developers seems identical to good and bad e.g. game designers. But since good developers are scare, the demands of people who only thought they are good designers, became quite annoying. E.g. we had people who invested maybe an hour or two of their talent into a game idea, but were already talking about a profit split. Or who were not even willing to share their ideas in detail, because someone might steal them. In general these people massively underestimated the time required for implementing their ideas (even a small 4K Atari 2600 game easily requires more than 100h development time if you are doing it right), and thus greatly overestimated their often very limited input.   

 

So while there is a risk that developers may become snobbish or seem to be like that, this is rarely the case. Actually in the cases I described above, they are mostly frustrated or annoyed that so many people have no clue about their work. And therefore value it very little. A thing which I am facing in my daily work quite frequently too, especially from people who think they are something better and who have never coded a single line in their whole life. I don't need this kind of people in my hobby too.   

Edited by Thomas Jentzsch
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Game ideas can come from experienced and high quality thinking people, but the old 70s and 80s game console mentality absolutely escapes younger folks. The limited arcade ports on the 2600 and 5200 weren't because of laziness but due to the technical limitations. I appreciate artists and designers who understand the primitive Atari hardware. 

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7 hours ago, Kirk_Johnston said:

While I get why you did this, the sheer arrogance and actually quite a lot of ignorance here, going about calling people suggesting ideas "peddlers", is astounding.

 

I think you must think that programmers are the be-all and end-all of [good] game creation or something, but I have to tell you that most of the coder stuff I see in the homebrew scene is utter crap. You can't make magic based on pure maths and programming alone.

 

So, yeah, while designers, artists and musicians need programers to make any of that other stuff turn into an actual working game, let's not pretend those other guys aren't just as essential too, at least if you actually care one bit about creating something good. Because, I can tell you this for a fact, the amount of individual programmers churning out amazing games all on their own isn't a very high figure. There's just as many programmers churning out garbage as there are people suggesting the same old ideas, and that includes many actual released homebrew and indie titles too. But, what is a bit more of a rare thing is people who actually have genuinely good ideas, artists who are actually talented, musicians who can actually compose good music, and indeed, programmers who can actually do more than either the very basics or who actually understand what makes a good game beyond math.

 

Also, you posted this in "Homebrew Discussion", not "Programmer Snob Elitists Unite", so stop peddling this God complex that guys like you seem to have. No one is forcing anyone to do anything, so, just as everyone has to put up with the endless drivel spewed out by all the hotshot creators out there, mostly programmers imagining they are actually game designers and artist and musicians, so too can you and your ilk put up with some actual designers, artists and musicians in here talking about game creation and trying to find out ways to get stuff done, and maybe even asking people if they'd be willing to test some stuff for them sometimes.

 

Can't believe I even have to point out stuff like this.

 

PS. Before you get on that programmer high horse, I was a level designer on GTA IV and Jimmy at Rockstar North, i.e. a programmer, coded seven released iOS/Android/Amazon games using Game Maker (that have been downloaded more than 80,000 times overall), had a Steam project Greenlit, built and coded a VR fps game demo in Unity, and am currently concepting a SNES game in Game Maker 8.1 too (designing, creating the art for and programming in the GML language). And, just to add stuff that isn't about programming, I was also an artist/animator at Rare on the likes of Donkey Kong Country Color and Banjo Kazooie: Grunty's Revenge, was a lead artist and then production designer at an indie games company, a producer at a games based learning company, and have held a couple of other random positions in the industry over the years. I've also released my own VR novella on Amazon called Presence too (and a short story called Outside as well). I'm just not a SNES programmer. What a crime to be in here aking about SNES development without being a SNES programmer, and, God help us all, maybe even putting forward some ideas and stuff!

Every few years this thread seems to piss off someone new, and it is always someone who doesn't understand the 2600 scene as it was at the time, or even today. Basically zero of what you said has relevance to the Atari 2600 scene. The Atari 2600 is not Steam. It is not the SNES. Not even close.

 

Also, as pointed out in several threads, the original post missed the mark a little, and further posts do clarify it - and I may even have said myself that I think this thread should be updated to reflect that.

 

Obviously, you don't have the benefit of having been in this forum to see what actually happened in the 2600 scene. As said, Steam and SNES are not even remotely similar game designing experiences. We were talking about the Atari 2600 here. The games are not complicated (or as you eloquently called them, "utter crap") because the system is so vastly limited it would make your head spin if you took some time to learn about these vast limitations. The graphics don't require a team of artists; there just isn't that much to them. I am sure that no homebrew game ever for the 2600 has had 80,000 downloads. The best ones might have 1000.

 

Now that being said, many of these people were indeed "peddlers." Many were trying to recruit programmers to work for nothing. They believed that their ideas were fantastic, original, valuable and more important than any other part of the game design process. In reality most of these ideas were not only terrible, they were not even technically feasible on the Atari 2600.

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3 hours ago, CapitanClassic said:

There is one significant difference. The latter actually exists.

Well, whatever the platform people are working on, it's the end results that speak for themselves, and all I personally care about is seeing and playing great games and/or genuinely exciting tech demos coming out at the other end of all. So, as someone personally interested in SNES development, if I'm not seeing and playing a bunch of amazing SNES tech demos and/or actual fully-complete high quality games on a regular basis, it all ultimately means nothing to me. And 99% of the programmers in all the forums I visit aren't doing that and simply don't have the talent to create something genuinely good all themselves, despite their egos telling them otherwise, so I think it's time to all start working together in proper development teams to make something of actual worth again, unless, like I said, each individual programmer's aim is just to be kinda aimless and program for the sake of programming or whatever. I give nowt for these coding geniuses sitting in their vacuums creating a bunch of turds though. Like I said "a crap finished game made by some genius programmer is no better than some same-old idea by some wanna-be game designer, artist, musician." Something just existing isn't of any inherent value in and of itself as far as I'm concerned, especially if it's crap. It's all a bunch of nothing to me. And I'm bored of jerking off people like that and seeing people giving them unwarranted praise for stuff that bores me and leaves me completely unimpressed and uninspired. Anyone can create crap, be it code, art, music, whatever--that's not a talent. It's not helping me or anyone like me who wants to see more awesome stuff on SNES. So, there's designers, artists, musicians and programmers out there, and I think they/we should be working together to make something that everyone outside of a tiny forum full of mostly programmers can actually give a crap about. Or else, like I said, the SNES development scene is going to go basically nowhere, which is just sad. That's just my hot take on things though. I'm sure others have their take too.

 

Note: None of that is to say there aren't any good tech demos or games coming out of these development scenes at all, but just that there's not a lot happening in the SNES development scene, I think for various reasons, and I'm just giving my two cents on that.

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14 hours ago, CapitanClassic said:

There is one significant difference. The latter actually exists.

Don't you mean the former?

10 hours ago, Kirk_Johnston said:

And 99% of the programmers in all the forums I visit aren't doing that and simply don't have the talent to create something genuinely good all themselves, despite their egos telling them otherwise, so I think it's time to all start working together in proper development teams to make something of actual worth again, unless, like I said, each individual programmer's aim is just to be kinda aimless and program for the sake of programming or whatever. I give nowt for these coding geniuses sitting in their vacuums creating a bunch of turds though.

That's pretty rich considering you yourself are looking for someone else to program your SNES game because you don't know how to. Insulting the same community you're also begging for help from probably won't help you much.

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