To All Non-Programmer Idea Peddlers

[+5-11under]

Where is the game designer in that list? A game is not the art, it is not the music, and it is not even the code. The GAME is a abstract mathemetical construct. The programmer (for the most part) implements that construct, and the artist and musician decorate it. On rare occasions audio and graphic properties of the product are fundametal to gameplay (i.e. the sonar sound in Dolphin). Usually audio and graphics provide a emotional framework to help the player wrap their mind around the mathematical construct underneath and find it more enjoyable.

That was beautiful!

5-11under

[candiru]

RegalSin, if you're gonna come in here and talk smack to the programmers you'd better at the VERY least be warm to BASIC and have a hook-up at Kinkos.

[Quadhorn]

Where is the game designer in that list? [...]

That was beautiful!

5-11under

Indeed it was; far shorter and more coherent than the software engineering rant I was tempted to go off on.

 

On the other hand, with that in mind, would this be of any use:

 

http://yourdon.com/strucanalysis/

 

It's only the Analysis part of the Analysis / Design / Implementation chain, but I thought it might give people more of an idea of what a proper / semi-formal specification is like. Not perfect, nor the only structured method out there, but it's been useful for stuff I've done.

[+Nathan Strum]

Good sprite designs definitely help give a game a 'professional' look, but they're nothing without a good game engine to back them up. And with some rare exceptions, the game engine is by far the bigger project. Toyshop Trouble had far more different graphics than would be typical for a 2600 game (16 toy shapes and 27 walking frames) but the graphics still represent a small amount of the total effort.

I agree completely. I've been privileged to create graphics for several different programmers, and while it's challenging to make 8-bit wide graphics that look good, it's only a tiny fraction of the overall development process. I'd hardly consider it to be on a par with having to hash out all of the intricacies of designing, programming, debugging and working out all of the details of a game.

 

I'm the first one to champion better-looking graphics in games, but the game has to be good in the first place.

[A Sprite]

What's with this "You owe me." attitude? I came in here, like you did, with ideas for games I wanted to make, but couldn't.

 

But we couldn't be further apart. My game ideas were always designed with the programmer in mind, because if it's not fun for them, what's the point?

 

What makes your game different than any other? You make it sound almost masturbatory.

 

Ironically, my first idea was picked up, and it's my art I've struggled to give away when I try to help...

 

I'm currently making a fool of myself, begging Mausboy for tips on what I can do to make myself useful. Maybe I'll succeed, maybe I'll go down as a punchline -

 

But if I succeed, I'll have made the team, on my own merits, and nobody owes anybody a thing. We all do what we can, to elevate each other, and to strengthen the community.

 

And to have fun.

 

That's the important part.

 

Btw: Many Japanese artists are also game designers/programmers. Miyamoto comes to mind. And if Americans can't make good looking games, then how do you explain Metroid Prime, Paper Mario, Doom 3 or Fight Night round 3?

[Snider-man]

Guys, before you get worked up over what RegalSin has to say, do yourselves a favor and follow these steps:

 

1. Go to Google.

2. Search for "RegalSin" or "RugalSin" or "RoyalShin" or "Reguluse" or "Rugal Sizzler" or "Rugalsizzler".

3. Realize that you have one of THE classic trolls loose on AA.

4. Enjoy the headaches about to ensue.

 

We've booted him from DP twice already. Apparently he found AA and new playmates to toy with.

 

Have fun.

Edited July 26, 2007 by Snider-man

[+Random Terrain]

Guys, before you get worked up over what RegalSin has to say, do yourselves a favor and follow these steps:

 

1. Go to Google.

2. Search for "RegalSin" or "RugalSin" or "RoyalShin" or "Reguluse" or "Rugal Sizzler" or "Rugalsizzler".

3. Realize that you have one of THE classic trolls loose on AA.

4. Enjoy the headaches about to ensue.

 

We've booted him from DP twice already. Apparently he found AA and new playmates to toy with.

 

Have fun.

So he's not really insane? It's just an act? It's hard to tell the fakers from the actual nuts.

[Bakasama]

Guys, before you get worked up over what RegalSin has to say, do yourselves a favor and follow these steps:

 

1. Go to Google.

2. Search for "RegalSin" or "RugalSin" or "RoyalShin" or "Reguluse" or "Rugal Sizzler" or "Rugalsizzler".

3. Realize that you have one of THE classic trolls loose on AA.

4. Enjoy the headaches about to ensue.

 

We've booted him from DP twice already. Apparently he found AA and new playmates to toy with.

 

Have fun.

 

Wait a minute, you're saying this guy is annoying as the Steel Sisters aka Orochi Tigresa and Orochi Panthera?! Just search the neo-geo.com boards for more info. I think banning with extreme prejudice is the answer before he becomes a major headache for the mods. If what you're saying is true, then we're not dealing with mere garden variety troll but something far worse.

 

As to insanity, it's difficult to tell sometimes. Sometimes they are really truly messed up in the head. It's some weird and sad call for attention.

Edited July 26, 2007 by Bakasama

[A Sprite]

You know what to hell with you all. I am too tired and too hot to have this redundant convi. Zero is Forte and Zero was to be Rockman. Case closed and if you want to bring the Gay KK to me at my door with there fire sticks and MegaMan is the White man savior then by all means do so.

 

-Regalsin

 

Sometimes they are really truly messed up in the head. It's some weird and sad call for attention.

 

Hentai will be porno of tuning looney, is which bunny it did not intend to be shown with dildo upward on its fudd ass and elmer pissing on I eat with porky with fastening pig and gagged

 

-Regalsin

Edited July 26, 2007 by A Sprite

[Snider-man]

Wait a minute, you're saying this guy is annoying as the Steel Sisters aka Orochi Tigresa and Orochi Panthera?! Just search the neo-geo.com boards for more info. I think banning with extreme prejudice is the answer before he becomes a major headache for the mods.

 

Ah, but the mods must wait until he does something ban-worthy. If he's banned just on the say-so of a few folks, well then that's a Nazi-Mod manuver. Or, perhaps, Regalsin has actually changed stripes and will be a productive member of AA - like others who are now here. You can't just ban him without giving him a chance to prove himself. That would be a Nazi-Mod manuver.

 

Nope, you just have to wait until he crosses a line and after he's been warned a few times to cut it out. Until then (and it will eventually happen), you're kind of stuck with his random, nonsensical, and borderline incoherant rants and diatribes.

 

I suggest putting him on your Ignore list now.

[Bakasama]

That's true, however my personal experience with such people tells me that giving them any kind of attention whether by flaming or arguing with them makes them more determined to post more of the same crap that annoys people. Anyway, I'll just look at what he's saying, it's not everyday AtariAge has a legendary 'net pest gracing it's board.

[Albert]

Ah, but the mods must wait until he does something ban-worthy. If he's banned just on the say-so of a few folks, well then that's a Nazi-Mod manuver. Or, perhaps, Regalsin has actually changed stripes and will be a productive member of AA - like others who are now here. You can't just ban him without giving him a chance to prove himself. That would be a Nazi-Mod manuver.

 

..Al

[Snider-man]

..Al

[CV Gus]

Still, the worst thing that can happen to homebrewers is people not purchasing their games. It takes considerable effort to make just one of them- programming (not always easy on an emulator!), circuit boards, etc...."flamers" can be disregarded, but going through all of that effort and not making any money- or even losing money!- is much worse.

 

This year I resolved to purchase at least 3 homebrew games.

 

This includes you, Opcode! Will Pac-man Collection be ready this year? If so- count me in!

[Robert M]

I have found an example of a real game design document in a link in a another thread in this forum. It was decompiled from a copy of the game M.U.L.E. This document is an excellent example of a clear and precise video game design. Any programmer could take this wonderful design and write the game M.U.L.E. from it. If a would be designer could come up with a detailed description of their game idea using a format and mathematical techniques as they are used in this example, then I believe it would not difficult to find a programmer. (Assuming the game looks fun of course )

 

Incredible Game Design Document Example!

 

Read and learn!

 

Cheers!

[+Random Terrain]

I have found an example of a real game design document in a link in a another thread in this forum. It was decompiled from a copy of the game M.U.L.E. This document is an excellent example of a clear and precise video game design. Any programmer could take this wonderful design and write the game M.U.L.E. from it. If a would be designer could come up with a detailed description of their game idea using a format and mathematical techniques as they are used in this example, then I believe it would not difficult to find a programmer. (Assuming the game looks fun of course )

 

Incredible Game Design Document Example!

 

Read and learn!

 

Cheers!

Holy anal retentive future serial killer Batman! If there was a document for sex in the same style that everyone had to read, there would be no more babies.

[AtariLeaf]

A game I used to love on the Tandy Coco was called "Outhouse". Kind of hard to describe but here's the only link I can find to it on the net:

 

http://nitros9.lcurtisboyle.com/outhouse.html

 

I'd love to see a 2600 version of this and put on a cart. I'd buy it, its a great game.

[+Random Terrain]

A game I used to love on the Tandy Coco was called "Outhouse". Kind of hard to describe but here's the only link I can find to it on the net:

 

http://nitros9.lcurtisboyle.com/outhouse.html

 

I'd love to see a 2600 version of this and put on a cart. I'd buy it, its a great game.

Now wait a minute. I'm advanced enough to have a spaceship, but I still have to crap in an outhouse? Can't I just hang my butt out of a porthole?

[jeremysart]

Whoops. My reply was a bit angry, so I guess what I was trying to say is, if someone works on a nice sprite set, especially if someone paints a nice piece of box art for you, then give credit where credit is due.

 

This can work the other way around too, for example, an artist has a website made for them, so the artist then gives credit to the web designer, who must know java/ html.

 

I totally understand when people cant get a cut of the money, producing carts is more about the fun and passion than the money made off them. But anyone who helped on it should get credit.

 

Thats the same with any gaming company, ie, the guy who did the box art for Diablo got credit, and has become a successful artist.

 

I would gladly contribute box art or sprites, and for free too.

Edited August 25, 2009 by jeremysart

[+Random Terrain]

So what you are saying is that someone who puts in hard time to create a nice set of sprites and pixel art should expect no credit? What about a game that actually gets put through production? Does the artist that worked on the box art and manual art get no credit as well?

 

Sorry, but that is bull-shit. Sounds like a few of the programmers around here are just arrogant pricks, if their mentality is "Oh, I did most of the work, so no one else deserves any credit; not for their ideas, or art".

 

The artist has to eat too, and if he cant be fed, he should at least get some credit.

Nope, artists must be punished. They deserve no money and no credit. That's what they get for wasting time drawing little pictures instead of doing real work.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Random Terrain

[Thomas Jentzsch]

So what you are saying, is that someone who puts in hard time to create a nice set of sprites and pixel art should expect no credit?

That's not what he is saying. Read again, please.

 

And usually artists get credited too.

[salstadt]

Whoops. My reply was a bit angry, so I guess what I was trying to say is, if someone works on a nice sprite set, especially if someone paints a nice piece of box art for you, then give credit where credit is due.

 

This can work the other way around too, for example, an artist has a website made for them, so the artist then gives credit to the web designer, who must know java/ html.

 

I totally understand when people cant get a cut of the money, producing carts is more about the fun and passion than the money made off them. But anyone who helped on it should get credit.

 

Thats the same with any gaming company, ie, the guy who did the box art for Diablo got credit, and has become a successful artist.

 

I would gladly contribute box art or sprites, and for free too.

Something you need to keep in mind is that on Atari, artists are not needed. I don't see the original post you guys are referring to, but a lot of artists come to these forums with a sort of "What? You don't want my ideas and art? Pshhh, fine then!" attitude. The people on this forum can do everything that's needed, and do it well, on these homebrew games. The only reason to get involved in Atari hobbydev is because of a consuming passion for the specific platform, and even then it probably won't be enough because, again, the people here don't need artists. Or ideas. They're swimming in them, and it takes time and passion to make these games. If you're just interested in collaborating on some homebrew games, you'd have a much easier time in something like the NDS scene. Only try to find work on these boards if the Atari platforms are very important to you, and in that sense just getting the opportunity to contribute to a game should be far more important than any credit, cash, or anything else that could come from the experience.

[espire8]

Something you need to keep in mind is that on Atari, artists are not needed. I don't see the original post you guys are referring to, but a lot of artists come to these forums with a sort of "What? You don't want my ideas and art? Pshhh, fine then!" attitude. The people on this forum can do everything that's needed, and do it well, on these homebrew games. The only reason to get involved in Atari hobbydev is because of a consuming passion for the specific platform, and even then it probably won't be enough because, again, the people here don't need artists. Or ideas. They're swimming in them, and it takes time and passion to make these games. If you're just interested in collaborating on some homebrew games, you'd have a much easier time in something like the NDS scene. Only try to find work on these boards if the Atari platforms are very important to you, and in that sense just getting the opportunity to contribute to a game should be far more important than any credit, cash, or anything else that could come from the experience.

 

The atari platform can never be more important to an artist as it is to a programmer, so it's very easy to push artist's away by lording all over it.

Atari back in the day never hired artists to work with programmers anyway because they were too cheap. Now you say artists tend to have attitudes for not being wanted? Too many out there, eh? Must be the economy.

[+Allan]

Something you need to keep in mind is that on Atari, artists are not needed. I don't see the original post you guys are referring to, but a lot of artists come to these forums with a sort of "What? You don't want my ideas and art? Pshhh, fine then!" attitude. The people on this forum can do everything that's needed, and do it well, on these homebrew games. The only reason to get involved in Atari hobbydev is because of a consuming passion for the specific platform, and even then it probably won't be enough because, again, the people here don't need artists. Or ideas. They're swimming in them, and it takes time and passion to make these games. If you're just interested in collaborating on some homebrew games, you'd have a much easier time in something like the NDS scene. Only try to find work on these boards if the Atari platforms are very important to you, and in that sense just getting the opportunity to contribute to a game should be far more important than any credit, cash, or anything else that could come from the experience.

 

The atari platform can never be more important to an artist as it is to a programmer, so it's very easy to push artist's away by lording all over it.

Atari back in the day never hired artists to work with programmers anyway because they were too cheap. Now you say artists tend to have attitudes for not being wanted? Too many out there, eh? Must be the economy.

Actually that is not correct at all. Atari hired a whole bunch of artist to work with the programmers. Go look at the pages for each game here on AA and many of them have the artist next to them. There are even more but some of the games just don't have the artist listed.

 

Allan

Edited September 22, 2009 by Allan

[+Cafeman]

I love working with a good artist. There is a certain amount of selfish pride to overcome with a homebrewer if he wants to "do it all himself", but frankly, a real artist will get much better results even on Atari 2600 than a non-artist homebrewer will. I know this from experience.

 

Artists who contribute a large bulk of the games visuals should of course get credit and a free copy of the game, at the very least.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Cafeman