To All Non-Programmer Idea Peddlers

[+DZ-Jay]

I just finished reading this thread. Wow. Just... Wow. o.O

 

[akator]

Would you rather have 50 bucks or a cart, box, and manual that's worth $100?

 

$50 bucks. With $50 bucks I can go out on a date and get some. With a cart, box, and manual that's worth $100 I'm sitting at home by myself with an Atari 2600.

 

"But you can sell the $100 game." By the time eBay, PayPal, and USPS get their cut I probably have $75 remaining. Just give me my $50 now so I can do what I want with it.

[+Gemintronic]

I just finished reading this thread. Wow. Just... Wow. o.O

 

I'd like you hear your thoughts since I know you can program.

 

I think the main gist of the money issue is non-programmers see dollar signs but would NEVER pay the billable labor needed for a software project. Friends and family assume you either have a big money making scheme or are being suckered by one.

[+DZ-Jay]

 

I'd like you hear your thoughts since I know you can program.

 

I think the main gist of the money issue is non-programmers see dollar signs but would NEVER pay the billable labor needed for a software project. Friends and family assume you either have a big money making scheme or are being suckered by one.

 

I agree with some of the comments and the overall sentiment of the thread, as you summarized.

 

However, my personal opinion is... Well... It's all been overblown! I say, live and let live.

 

Ideas are good things to have. Great ideas are awesome.

 

Programmers and home-brewers are hard working and passionate. Great programmers are a rare gift to the community.

 

That said, there seems to be a sense of entitlement from both sides that I just find distasteful.

 

We're in a free and open forum. It is as wrong to demand (yes demand!) that "idea peddlers" submit fully formed concepts, complete with technical and collateral asset specifications; as it is to demand from a programmer that they make the game you want and pay you lots of money for it.

 

As others have said, there's no money here, so that is obviously not what brought us together--and that goes for both sides.

 

We all need to chill out and listen to each other, and empathize with our possibly different goals.

 

So let's get something out of the way...

 

Programmers: idea peddlers are not there to give you free consultations on what is a good game, nor to provide documentation and artwork for your benefit.

 

Idea peddlers (for lack of a better term): programmers are not self-interested prima-donnas or your personal slave to make your own dream game, and give you a free copy or cash in return for a vague and ambiguous concept.

 

There, that's what this thread boils down to: the perception that the other camp is in it for themselves, and damn our own concerns and feelings.

 

However, this is plainly and absolutely wrong. We're all here to enjoy the community, to make or to play games, and to have a good time. Some express themselves better than others, and levels of maturity are wide and variable; but overall we're here for the same thing: passion for games.

 

And if you read a comment that rubs you the wrong way, or if someone posted an idea that happens to be stupid, stale, or vague; lighten up and just ignore it and move on.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

dZ.

 

[akator]

Programmers: idea peddlers are not there to give you free consultations on what is a good game, nor to provide documentation and artwork for your benefit.

 

Idea peddlers (for lack of a better term): programmers are not self-interested prima-donnas or your personal slave to make your own dream game, and give you a free copy or cash in return for a vague and ambiguous concept.

 

There, that's what this thread boils down to: the perception that the other camp is in it for themselves, and damn our own concerns and feelings.

 

This problem is as old as the human race. There has always been a lack of empathy and understanding for the effort, work, and expertise provided by others. Empathy and understanding require respecting something else enough to think about it, and respect for others is something else the human race massively lacks. That's why it always boils down to money, because that's how modern society processes effort, work, and expertise.

[+Gemintronic]

I respect and agree with most opinions here. However, as a developer I need zero from Idea peddlers. It's not my dream to make - that makes it a service. When you ask for a service there are certain things the customer needs to detail and certain payment expectations.

 

I may work for free. I may work for barter. What it takes to engage me is respect and concrete information. Also, a good deal of creative freedom.

[+SpiceWare]

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but I am not aware of any ideas by non-programmers that have been turned into actual homebrew games?

 

Fade Out was close, but never completed.

 

Stay Frosty

[+Gemintronic]

Stay Frosty

 

M.M.S.B.C. was a request by Ricky Henry.

http://www.atariage....incinnati-done/

[+Random Terrain]

Programmers: idea peddlers are not there to give you free consultations on what is a good game, nor to provide documentation and artwork for your benefit.

 

i can haz game?

[+DZ-Jay]

I respect and agree with most opinions here. However, as a developer I need zero from Idea peddlers. It's not my dream to make - that makes it a service. When you ask for a service there are certain things the customer needs to detail and certain payment expectations.

 

I may work for free. I may work for barter. What it takes to engage me is respect and concrete information. Also, a good deal of creative freedom.

 

Respect is imperative, I agree.

 

Moreover, if someone uninvitedly and gratuitously offers you some idea, it is your prerogative to ignore it, of course. However, I don't think it's warranted to think of them any less just because they failed your standards. Ignore them. They probably meant well.

 

If what you are referring to is someone constantly and rudely badgering you with unsolicited ideas that are annoying or unsavory, in a way that makes you uncomfortable, well that's not an "idea peddler," that's just a dick. Nobody likes those.

 

My main point was not to take it personally. Some may be as passionate about their concepts and seeing them come to life as you are with your projects, and just exhibit it in an over-excited way.

 

When a forum is replete of dicks and other annoying people, then it's time to leave and move on, not to write manifestos.

 

dZ.

[+Gemintronic]

Agreed, this topic should be less about writing maniflatus and more about advice. I suspect whoever made this topic knows that idea people either get the silent treatment or some overeact instead of giving suggestions.

[+stephena]

I guess the thing that bothers me about some idea peddlers is that they think the idea is paramount, and that the work required to bring it to fruition is gruntwork, which can be accomplished by any code monkey that can be suckered into working on the project, often for sub-standard wages. I realize that sounds harsh, and that it isn't always the case, but many times it is the case. I guess I'm jaded from working in industry, which is why I'm now in academia (which sometimes is the same, as you have some pie-in-the-sky academics that have the same idea).

 

I think the real problem comes down to truly understanding what the other side does, and realizing it's not all rainbows and buttercups. You don't just hit a few keys on the keyboard and have the project pop out, fully formed. Bringing an idea to fruition is damn hard work, and I hate it when the other side simply brushes that effort aside or belittles it. There's a reason for the saying that completing a task is "1% inspiration and 99% perspiration".

 

I've been involved with both sides of the process. I prefer the development side to the idea side, and agree that both are required. I guess my main issue is that many of the idea peddlers I've dealt with are dicks, as described above. That doesn't mean all of them are, of course. But when the overlap is so large, it's easy to get jaded when you can't separate the wheat from the chaff

 

Overall, a good idea person is invaluable, just as a good developer is. It's best to have people who are good at both, or have experience at both, but that is rare. Barring that, the idea person, if they are serious and persist in offering their ideas, IMO absolutely should bring more to the table than just the idea.

 

Or maybe I just need a vacation

[+DZ-Jay]

I guess I just haven't been exposed to this problem as you guys have. I'm very new at this, having made only one game so far, and typically work on my own.

 

For my own project, I created a private mailing list and invited anybody who wanted to join the effort. Only there did I distribute progress reports and solicited ideas and testing; and I could control the feedback, which was not overwhelming.

 

Then again, it was an Intellivision game, which has a very small audience.

 

I can imagine that posting the same publicly on a board like AA, I would probably get tons of posers and "idea peddlers" bugging me. Especially if the target was a popular home-brew platform like the Atari VCS.

 

I respect all your points and understand your frustration. However, from personal opinion I can suggest that posting manifestos and publicly lashing at the "dicks" won't solve the problem. It may feel good to let it out, but it just fans the fire, and may do a disservice to your image.

 

I know this is much pontificating from my part as an outsider, so please take it as a humble suggestion.

 

Cheers!

dZ.

 

 

[enthusi]

I think only friendship can be the basis of a team designer+coder working together.

There are many technically well made but quite dull games out there. The solution, however, wont be good ideas coming from coding-laymen.

A good coder may not come up with good game-concepts and maybe he/she never will, but someone with good ideas and no clue about coding sure will never create a game.

The question who-needs-whom is doomed to rise conflicts. Who do we need more? Garbage-men or artists?

It can only be friendship, enthusiasm or things like that bringing both 'sides' together sucessfully (in my experience)

[+DZ-Jay]

It can only be friendship, enthusiasm or things like that bringing both 'sides' together sucessfully (in my experience)

 

Amen! Especially if it is a labour of love--someone is bound to get hurt if the aims and desires do not align adequately.

 

dZ.

[+stephena]

I guess I just haven't been exposed to this problem as you guys have. I'm very new at this, having made only one game so far, and typically work on my own.

 

It's true that (bad) experiences often colour your opinion. I'd like to think that I'm not that way in this community, and that I answer every request I get with either nay or yay, describing in detail my reasoning. Heck, many times I go ahead and add a new feature to Stella specifically for one person, because it seems like a cool thing that many people would like

 

My experiences are more from real-life, and there, the end users aren't nearly as friendly or respectful as the people here. So I can definitely understand the frustration expressed here. It may be coming from the outside, but, as I say, it still colours you judgment in dealing with certain people on certain topics.

 

I actually come here to get away from all that

[CyberKFox]

other 7800 ports i would like to see

- Pang!/Buster Bros (with elements from Pang 3 and Mighty Pang!)

- Kangaroo

- Road Warrior

- Pooyan

- Qix

 

plus i would love to see someone make a 7800 remake of the Swordquest games

[snicklin]

I've been programming from the age of 6 and I have a million ideas of what to implement, but not enough time to do them all.

 

My (in-head but not reality) projects for the A8 are:

1) An isometric game which tells the story of a man who has to run around getting things for his ill wife (yes, a bit odd, but it makes a good storyline)

2) A massive 2D game, with the maps created from algorithms.

3) A yogi bear like 2D left to right scroller.

4) A machine code follow up to my football management game in the 90's, using modern player data.

 

Now I don't mind someone giving me an idea of something that would make any of these a bit better, but if I feel that I don't want to follow that idea up, that is my right - these are my dreams.

 

Imagine winning the lottery and then being told what to do with the money?

[wiseguyusa]

What about money? Your FAQ (or whatever you would call it) say's programmers are working for "pennies an hour" wouldn't that get a "idea peddler" who is willing to pay (for discussion sake) minimum wage on the short list? What if you are not asking for it to be done for free, you are willing to pay?

 

No, I don't have $20K to throw at it as one programmer suggested in another thread, but I can damn sure pay more than "penny's an hour" to someone who is willing to collaborate with another fan, to make something unique.

 

Someone said that the ones that do it, do it for the "(sic)love of the hobby" so why do you think programmers have a love of the 2600 that a non-programmer does not? Were you a programmer in 1977 when there was a brand new VCS under the Christmas tree? Seems to me that a couple of nostalgic Gen Xers could see things the same and work together respectfully and god willing break even.

[+Gemintronic]

Count on not breaking even. Expect that the very vertical retro market will have decidedly different tastes than you. Do it to give the everyday a huge middle finger. Do it because as a kid you thought making your own games was the next logical step. Ain't no money on these streets - only hopes and dreams.

[wiseguyusa]

See Loon, we think a lot alike, whether you are willing to admit it or not! those are the very reasons that I have for wanting to create, or "commission" a homebrew.

 

The very fact that there is a company that makes homebrews proves that there is a larger "vertical retro market" then I ever imagined.

 

I may have come blasting into the forum like a bull in a china shop, but I did learn a lot in just the few hours I have been on here. (not the least of which was how not to step on a programmers ego LOL)

 

Hopefully in the next few days, I'll either learn some of the finer points of AA Forum "netticate" , or another newbie will come into the forum greener than me and deflect the wrath of the regulars

 

To be honest, I expected my post to sit unanswered for a few weeks before someone even bothered to read it the fact that it got so much traction so fast was actually encouraging, even if it was other users telling me that I was going about it all wrong.

[wiseguyusa]

I am sure that this has occurred to others, so I won't take any credit for the idea, but when the "Y Box" debuted at the Yahoo Hackers Conference it was described as "an Atari 2600-era Konfabulator" by Endgadget.

 

Why not go a step further, and make a YBox FOR the Atari 2600?

 

Something that works similar to how the Gameline boxes did.

 

The Atari could interface with the user (with the controllers) and directly to the television.

 

In theory this would take some of the heavy lifting chores off of the YBox and give it more interactivity with the user (menus etc)

 

I wouldn't even call this a "Idea Peddle" because, again, I am sure that this idea has already occurred to someone with the skills to make it a reality. Anyone done any R&D in this area?

Edited January 3, 2014 by wiseguyusa

[Thomas Jentzsch]

What about money?

At least in my case, completely non-interesting.

 

If I would work for the money, I wouldn't work for pennies. But I also wouldn't work for, lets say $10 or $20 per hour. So the gap you would have to close is HUGE.

 

I only do this, because of the fun and love for the hobby. And an important part of this hobby is, that no one can tell me, what to do and when to do. As soon as serious money gets involved, those who pay me will request those rights and this important part is gone.

[+DZ-Jay]

What about money? Your FAQ (or whatever you would call it) say's programmers are working for "pennies an hour" wouldn't that get a "idea peddler" who is willing to pay (for discussion sake) minimum wage on the short list? What if you are not asking for it to be done for free, you are willing to pay? No, I don't have $20K to throw at it as one programmer suggested in another thread, but I can damn sure pay more than "penny's an hour" to someone who is willing to collaborate with another fan, to make something unique.Someone said that the ones that do it, do it for the "(sic)love of the hobby" so why do you think programmers have a love of the 2600 that a non-programmer does not? Were you a programmer in 1977 when there was a brand new VCS under the Christmas tree? Seems to me that a couple of nostalgic Gen Xers could see things the same and work together respectfully and god willing break even.

You don't seem to grasp the amount of work and effort required for a home-brewed retro game.

 

As an example, I spent 18 months of personal time on Christmas Carol, mostly on the weekends. There were stretches of times when I'd spend 3 to 4 hours a weekday and 16 to 20 hours on week-ends, debugging and polishing, for a couple of months at a time. This on top of real work and family.

 

Even at minimum wage, you'd be hard pressed to price that at less than $20K.

 

And even $20K will NEVER give me back the lost time that I could have spend with my family or friends in other, less strenuous activities. That's a year and one half of my rapidly diminishing life--including one Christmas Season--just gone in a blink.

 

This is why we say that it is purely a labour of love.

 

Programming retro games is very hard and takes a lot of time. It takes a huge amount of effort to get up to speed with the arcane hardware requirements and work around its limitations. Because of this, you don't get many 2-bit programmers making quick-and-dirty cheesy clones for a buck, like it were 1983.

 

Thus, the Homebrew community is populated mostly by very passionate people who "paid their dues," as it were, to get to a point that lets them pursue their hobby, and they most likely wont do it for money.

 

dZ.

[adamchevy]

I think everyone who pitches an idea would be better informed by first learning to program for the console they have an idea for. So Wozniak would be the perfect idea pitcher .