Beginner's MIDI setup for 520STfm

[NightSprinter]

Does anyone have any suggstions on hardware and software to start out with making MIDI music on a 520STfm? I found one for under $50 on eBay after shipping (unless someone has one they're wanting to sell for less), and have been trying to find a decent hardware/software setup for learning how to create MIDI music. I've been looking at the Yamaha stuff (like a DX-7 if I could snag one up cheap, or a modern synth keyboard that supports the PLG150-DX board). I'm just a little lost since I do need to learn how to use this stuff before a presentation in April (at least learn the basics).

[crash]

I would highly recommend that you dig up a used copy of C-Lab Notator 3.21, just don't try to learn all the features all at once or you may be overwhelmed. Be sure that it includes the manual and the cartridge key / dongle.

 

I might recommend that you try to get a 1040ST for the extra memory, and perhaps a hard disk drive so you don't have to trust your work to floppy disks.

 

You can read about Notator here:

 

http://www.tweakheadz.com/history_of_notator_and_logic.html

http://tamw.atari-users.net/notator.htm

 

This is a great place to start when looking into Atari MIDI:

 

http://tamw.atari-users.net/index.htm

 

There is lots of freeware software and information about everything for Atari MIDI.

 

You don't specifically need additional MIDI hardware if you will be using a handful of instruments. If you want to expand greatly, devices like the UnitorII, Log3, and Export can add more MIDI ins and outs.

 

DX keyboards and modules are generally considered difficult to master with regards to sound programming so if you plan to make your own sounds this may be a hard place to start. TX modules (at least) can be multi-timbral (play more than one kind of sound at once on different MIDI channels) and can be gotten quite cheap if you get another keyboard that can be used for control.

 

Be sure to get a keyboard that has velocity sensitivity, MIDI IN and OUT, OMNI Off capability, and preferably the ability to disable LOCAL MIDI. Aftertouch (pressure) can be useful too.

 

The ability to disable LOCAL MIDI allows you to send your MIDI information through the computer which will decide which instrument you hear/play. This will allow you to use the sounds in the keyboard as well as the sounds in other instruments - while only hearing the one(s) that you want to be hearing. That means that you can play in the drum parts and not hear the musical notes unintentionaly doubling the drum notes.

 

OMNI Off means that you can assign the instrument to a specific MIDI channel 1-16, instead of having it play everything sent on all MIDI channels. If you want drums on 10, and Piano on 1, etc... OMNI Off is needed.

 

You'll need a few audio and MIDI cables, and some way to listen to the output - such as amplified speakers, an amplifier/speakers, and/or a mixer, headphones, etc...

 

I personally started out with a keyboard as a controller (Kawai K1) and a multi-timbral module (Emu Proteus), since this can generate a few sounds plus drums.

 

You can set it up however you want, for example, one song might use:

 

MIDI Channel

1 Piano

2 Strings

3 Bass

4 Sound effects

5 Guitar

6 Synth sweep

7 Bells

...

10 Drums/Percussion

 

There are lots of similar multi-instrument modules such as the Roland JV-1080, Korg Trinity, etc... It all depends on how much money you have and what kind of sounds you want.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Have fun!

[NightSprinter]

Wow.. just.. wow.. I'm going to be reading that post a few times to make sure I understand everything (as I did state I'm JUST getting into music for a hobby).

 

Now, I found a 1040ST on eBay with a boxed copy of C-Lab Notator, but it's missing one of the keys (from what I've seen in a pic on old-computers.com it seems to be the one that has the UK Pound sign). Should I skip over the 520 STfm and get the 1040 with Notator instead?

Edited February 28, 2006 by NightSprinter

[crash]

Wow.. just.. wow.. I'm going to be reading that post a few times to make sure I understand everything (as I did state I'm JUST getting into music for a hobby).

1025631[/snapback]

 

Well, it's a fun hobby, and there is lots to learn, but a little at a time and as needed is the best way. One of the reasons that I like Notator is that it is not difficult to get started making music, but then it has tons and tons of powerful features for when you get to the point that you need them.

 

-

 

Getting a 1040ST would be preferable to a 520ST, if you can get a good deal, of course you might want to see if someone here can offer you a replacement key or keyboard for the 1040ST

 

Is the key missing (fallen off) or broken off? If it broke, you would probably have to replace the whole keyboard.

 

One thing I should clarify, is that you will need the right monitor. Color monitors are not suitable for use with Notator, Cubase, or most of the better MIDI sequencing programs. A monochrome monitor such as SM124 or SM147 is needed for the higher resolution mode used by these programs.

 

Please plan accordingly.

[NightSprinter]

I intend to do so. The auction I was looking at is here: 1040 ST with Notator software. The key looks like it's just missing, but I'll go and post something in the Marketplace too. I do remember that the MIDI programs required a monochrome monitor just in order to run. I may take your suggestion of a seperate keyboard and synthesizer module instead.

[Womble76]

Re that broken key - is quite easy to replace. Just post a comment on here and on www.atari-forum.com asking for the keycap and the key post.

 

I assume the cross profile key post has broken on your keyboard?

 

All you need to do to replace it is take the lid off the ST, disconnect the keyboard and take out the 30 or so small silver screws holding the PCB into the keyboard assembly. Lift the PCB out and you will see loads of small rubber caps - make a note of how many you have and which contacts on the PCB dont have one - I think there is one point on the board that looks like it should have one but actually doesnt - they need to go back in the same pattern as you found them. Some rubber caps will be stuck to the PCB and some will be lying free on the keyboard, just collect them all up and put to one side.

 

Now you have the keyboard in bits its very easy to see what you need to replace - just retrieve the broken key post and drop the replacement in. Hold it in place while you attach the keycap from the other side - make sure you push the two together firmly.

 

No grap a couple of matchboxes or similar and support the keyboard at each end, so the keycaps are hanging below by gravity. This makes it a piece of cake to drop the rubber caps back into the upward facing positions. Once all the caps are in their places you can plop the PCB back on top and replace all the little screws, and connect it back to the ST.

 

It sounds complicated when written out but its very easy to see what you need to do.

 

Am sure someone will respond to your plea for the spares - alas i have no spare keyboards or I could send you the bits.

 

As for what type of ST to go for...

 

I would say the sweetspot for ram would be 1Mb - STFMs will be fine for midi, it not like the midi software would use any of the funky features on an STE anyway. The only benefit of the STE is the ability to take SIMM memory - upgrading an FM is not easy so you are wise to get a 1040 from the outset. Also bear in mind that midi does not use samples so the memory usage will be much lower than you may think. 4Mb may be nice to have but unless you are composing an entire symphony you are unlikely to really need it.

Edited February 28, 2006 by Womble76

[crash]

I may take your suggestion of a seperate keyboard and synthesizer module instead.

You can always look for a Multi-timbral keyboard to start with, and then expand from there if needed. Something like the Emu Proteus MPS Keyboard or Alesis QS series, there are many kinds to consider. It all depends on what kind of music that you like, or would like to make. Some instruments try to simulate acoustic sounds, while some just make electronic sounds - and others do both. Each different model sounds different.

 

A multi-timbral keyboard or module is good to start out with, as it will allow multiple instrument sounds from the same device.

 

The original DX7 keyboard, as I recall, is not multi-timbral - so one kind of sound at a time is possible. If you want to add drums, bass, etc... you need other instruments. Some of the later DX7 (TX) models were multi-timbral. The DX7 mark II, I think could make two sounds, while the big expensive TX-816 could make eight. Some of the models in the DX/TX line used fewer operators, four instead of six, (like oscillators) so they sounded thinner. They were really not the same as the original DX7. I personally don't care for the 4 operator instruments, which include the FB-01, DX100, DX-21, DX-27, etc...

 

Here is some information about specifications that you may find for different keyboards:

 

Polyphony - how many notes can be played at once

Multi-timbral - how many different sounds can be played at once

Oscillators per Voice - how many sound generators are used to make each voice (this usually can vary based on which sound you choose). Some instruments may claim to be 32 voice polyphonic, but since the good sounds may use four oscillators each, this quickly turns into 8 voice polyphonic, and it is always good to have more than you need since you may hear sounds getting cut off otherwise.

Effects - some instruments have built-in effects like reverb, delay, flanger, etc... Keep in mind that for instruments that don't have dedicated effects sections, they may simulate effects by doubling up on voices slightly detuned or delayed - cutting your polyphony in half.

Drum Section - are drums included?

 

Here are some places to look for information about instruments:

 

http://www.vintagesynth.com/

http://machines.hyperreal.org/

http://www.synthzone.com/

 

The Yamaha TX-802 seems to be the multi-timbral, rack module version of the DX7 synthesizer, and may be a good option if you like the DX7 sounds. I don't think it has drums though, so you may need to add a drum machine or module if you want percussion. It is 8-part multi-timbral and 16-voice polyphonic, so you can't write a symphony, but you'll be able to get a few parts out of it at a time.

 

Believe it or not, I wrote my first song on an Atari ST with Music Studio 88 and a Casio CZ-1000, which was 4 voices polyphonic, and 4 part multi-timbral. I synth drums on one voice, and everything else on the other three, one note per channel.

 

Originally I started out with a color monitor and Music Studio (from Activision) and would drag notes around the screen until they sounded like they were in the right place. This style of composition yields very different results than playing on a keyboard, and has a lot of limitations, but it can be fun. More complicated song and song structures are difficult with this basic style of sequencer.

 

So here is basically what I do in Notator, from planning on to composing:

 

1. Assign a MIDI channel (or group of them) to an actual electronic instrument

 

Such as, if you are just starting out with one or two instruments, your setup could look like this:

 

1 Yamaha DX-7

2 - 16 Unused

 

If you have multi-timbral instruments, or more than one, you might have something like this:

 

1 - 4 Emu Proteus

5 - 8 Roland JV-1080

9 Yamaha DX-7

10 Alesis Drum Module

11-15 Korg Trinity

 

Basically, whereever you want to put things - make a plan that matches your instruments capabilities. You don't need to give a non-multitimbral instrument more than one channel. Drums conventionally go on channel 10.

 

From there, you may want to setup a template song in your sequencer (like Notator) so that these channels and their corresponding instruments are shown on the computer screen. Some more advanced sequencers even allow you to put the names of the sounds for each instrument into the computer (like Emagic Logic) although a basic ST is not quite powerful enough to use Logic comfortably.

 

So you save the template song, probably as AUTOLOAD, or something, so that you can start from there each time you begin a new song. Then you will choose a track in the MIDI sequencer, tell the track which MIDI channel you will be using (and the corresponding instrument) and you can play around until you come up with something to record. You can choose the sound patch you want to use from the instrument or from the sequencer, but initially you'll probably want to just scroll through the sounds on the instrument itself until you find the right one.

 

The notes that you play on the MIDI keyboard will be sent to the MIDI In on the computer, where the computer decides what channel/instrument to send the notes to. If you have Local Off set on your keyboard, you won't hear any sound unless the channel/track selected in the sequencer match that of a connected instrument or the keyboard itself. In this case, the notes are sent out of the keyboard and the computer sends them back to the keyboard to play them. This allows you to use one keyboard to control all of the different instruments, channels, or sounds that may be used in a song. If you just want to play on the keyboard without turning on the computer, you would have to set the Local MIDI back to On.

 

Keep in mind that if you are using a multi-timbral keyboard, switching the sound on Channel 1 which is probably what the keyboard display shows most of the time, will not change the sound on any of the other channels. In this case, you may have to choose on the keyboard which multi-timbral instrument/channel you are looking at, or choose the sound using the sequencer. You can insert a message at the beginning of each track to set thing like which sound to use, known as Patch, also Volume, Panning, etc... This is the kind of thing that you'll want to save into your AUTOLOAD so it is ready to use for each new song.

 

Back to the sequencer, you'll want to check the tempo and time signature in the sequencer to make sure they are set according to the music that you want to record, then save the song as a new file with a new name.

 

From there, you can start recording on a track, wait for the metronome to play it's lead in, and play in your part. This can be a whole song, or more commonly, just a few measures. Let's say you play in four measures of a bass line. That went on channel 1 track 1, but it sounds good so you decided to keep it. In most sequencers you can quantize your performance to make sure the notes land where they should, and you can edit them individually if you hit a key to soft, too hard, or a little early or late.

 

Now move to another track, another MIDI channel, another sound, and try playing along with the bass line. Maybe now you are working on some strings to complement the bass line. Once you have a sound and chords that you like, start recording on that new track, and play the string part in, four measures worth. Fix everything up, if it sounds good, then you can move onto the next part.

 

Let's say you want to start with something very simple for drums just to get things going. You can always mute or delete this later. Change to a drum channel/track, and play around until you find a good drum beat for this song. You can set the tracks that you have already recorded to loop, so you can play along until you find something you like. From there, let's say you record a 1 measure drum part. This would normally end before everything else, but you can loop this two, so it will play four times for every one time that the other tracks play.

 

From here you have a PART, which is a group of TRACKS, and may generally last 1-4 measures. You can add tracks according to what you are inspired to, and space permitting of course. Sometimes I'll add a bunch of tracks, and use some during one part of a song, and otherse elsewhere. Remember you can always mute, transpose, move a track to a different sound, or whatever. Once you have what sounds like a good set of TRACKS for this PART of the song, you can move onto the next PART.

 

From here, you do the same thing, start with one track and build until the part sounds the way you like it. Move onto the next part - how many depends on how you decided to structure the song. I have found a good way to learn about song structure is to copy the design of other songs.

 

Once you have PARTs that you think can be arranged into a song, there is the ARRANGE section, where you specify which PART to play, and for how long. Here too you can specify which tracks are muted and which are heard, so if you want to start the song with just the bassline, then add the other instruments, you can do that from the ARRANGE section.

 

The ARRANGE section will allow up to four PARTS at once to be layered, and the muting for each part that is arranged is remembered by the ARRANGE section. So you arrange the song from the parts that you have created, and presto - you have a whole song!

 

If you are the type to play in a whole song at once, you can do that too - for example, as a single take piano piece. You could then add other instruments on other tracks or other parts, and put it all together when you arrange the song. A good sequencer should be able to accomodate your preferred style.

 

Other sequencers work in different ways. Some like Cubase are more graphical in terms of how you arrange the song, where you can drag the parts into a timeline - although I must confess I never quite got the hang of Cubase. Logic uses a timeline system too, although since it is the evolution of Notator, much of Notator's features are still in there and it all just makes better sense to me.

 

You may want to get some input from a Cubase user and/or read about it, in case you think that it may be better suited to your imagination. Both Notator and Cubase have a variety of styles of editing available, from piano roll, to notation, to types that are better suited for percussion, etc...

 

Anyway, I hope this will help.

 

Cheers!

Edited March 1, 2006 by crash

[crash]

Also bear in mind that midi does not use samples so the memory usage will be much lower than you may think. 4Mb may be nice to have but unless you are composing an entire symphony you are unlikely to really need it.

I eventually moved to Emagic Logic, which wants more speed and memory in order to function well, and file sizes grew accordingly. Logic really struggles even on a 16mhz MegaSTE. A TT or Falcon is better suited speed and memory wise, but the copy protection becomes a problem on the TT, and the Falcon doesn't generally offer higher resolutions which become very nice with graphical arrangement.

 

I would imagine that 1meg should be fine for Cubase or Notator - they will work with 512, but you might have problems sometimes. Any more than 1meg is probably not needed, and it would be better to put your money towards a hard drive. I can't really think of any reason that an STE would be of benefit for MIDI, aside from the aforementioned easy to upgrade/replace ram.

 

Cheers!

[+Zeptari]

I allways wanted to mess around with a midi keyboard on my ST.

 

Will any midi keyboard work on the ST?

 

I new to this too. Time to look around the local flea markets for an old Casio.

 

 

-Rick

[NightSprinter]

Well, from my knowledge any MIDI-capable device will work. Just remember, always connect the "OUT" port of one device to the "IN" port of the next.

[+Guitarman]

I can't comment on the software needed on the ST as I am just starting to figget with mine now. I have been doing MIDI for years on the PC though and, in easy terms, would suggest the following:

 

Computer:

Atari 1040ST or a Mega2

Your choice of MIDI software (Band in a Box is a fun one to play with)

MegaFile 20-30, etc. Hardrive for storage.

 

Keyboard:

Any keyboard that is designated as "General MIDI" (GM).

General MIDI means the keyboard follows a MIDI standard for instrument patches and percussion. It will have 128 instruments and 5 drum sets available to use. It was mainly created to allow MIDI files from different user and hardware to play fairly close to the same as it was originally sequenced, as long as the sequence was created with GM in mind.

 

If you get a "GM" keyboard, you do not need to worry about polyphonic or how many notes it will play at once. Part of the GM standard is that it play at least 24 note at the same time. Most newer boards do a lot more.

 

You can pick up a Yamaha board with GM for a couple hundred dollars at a Costco and they work great for entry to mid level MIDI use. Just plug up the MIDI ports between the computer and the board and set the board to GM mode (some do this automatically).

 

In my system, I use seperate sound modules for different things. I use a Korg X5DR sound module for all the instrument sounds, An Alesis D4 for all the drum and percussion sounds, and control it all with a Roland A8 88 key piano action keyboard and a home build triggered drum pad set.

 

Once you get the hang of it, you will be unstoppable!!

[NightSprinter]

Guitarman, what about people who need to store patches for programmable synths?

[Paolo]

It's another type of program.

there are progs for several synthetizers out there. Just check Tim's MIDI world as stated in one of the first posts.

[jens]

I'd recommend at least two megs of ram for midi programming.

With a hard disk driver, mouse speeder and an older copy of Nvdi just to speed the graphics there's hardly enough ram left to start Cubase.

I think Notator will need a bit less, but if you come to more complex songs you will really need at least two megs, better four megs of ram.

 

I once downloaded Camels' 'The Snow Goose' as midi file. Hard work for an Atari.

 

In my opinion an Atari Mega/STe with four megs, Nvdi, Maccel and Letemfly is the ideal machine for midi sequencing with Cubase.

[+Guitarman]

Guitarman, what about people who need to store patches for programmable synths?

 

 

Most sequecing software has a MIDI System Exclusive utility that will allow you to send patch data to the computer to store. If it doesn't, the other way is to create a sequence, start recording and then dump the data to the computer from the device. The sequencer will record the dump. You can then save the sequence. If you want to restore it, just play the sequence out to the MIDI device (keyboard, etc.). Since it is system exclusive data, the device will recognize it and load it back in.

[NightSprinter]

Not to dredge up an old topic, but something intrigued me in regards to the MIDI setup. I don't have a hard drive for it yet, but I have a Yamaha PSS-680 keyboard (heard some amazing stuff done with this simple 2-op synth), a Yamaha FB-01 fm sound generator, and a Roland MT-32 LA Synthesizer. If I was to use the Caged Artists editors, how would it work if I was to set up the equipment as follows:

 

Atari 1040STf (out to PSS-680)

Yamaha PSS-680 (out to FB-01)

Yamaha FB-01 (out to MT-32)

Roland MT-32 (out to 1040STf)

 

Would any of the Caged Artists editors work?

[tjlazer]

Not to dredge up an old topic, but something intrigued me in regards to the MIDI setup. I don't have a hard drive for it yet, but I have a Yamaha PSS-680 keyboard (heard some amazing stuff done with this simple 2-op synth), a Yamaha FB-01 fm sound generator, and a Roland MT-32 LA Synthesizer. If I was to use the Caged Artists editors, how would it work if I was to set up the equipment as follows:

 

Atari 1040STf (out to PSS-680)

Yamaha PSS-680 (out to FB-01)

Yamaha FB-01 (out to MT-32)

Roland MT-32 (out to 1040STf)

 

Would any of the Caged Artists editors work?

 

Damn two years later... LOL So I take it you got a 1040?

[NightSprinter]

Took a while, but yeah I finally got one. Also got the cable to connect it to my 1084S monitor.

[Math You]

There's a lot of useful information about using the Atari ST for midi on the Sound on Sound forum.

 

There are many people who consider it a better midi computer than a PC or Mac. It's something to do with the ST's low/zero latency that improves the rhythm and timing of electronic drums and instruments.

 

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/postlist...amp;sb=5&o=

[Kripto]

There's a lot of useful information about using the Atari ST for midi on the Sound on Sound forum.

 

There are many people who consider it a better midi computer than a PC or Mac. It's something to do with the ST's low/zero latency that improves the rhythm and timing of electronic drums and instruments.

 

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/postlist...amp;sb=5&o=

 

 

It was true for a long time that the timing was better (I was a Mega ST/Creator user once upon a time). A modern machine with a pro-level interface (i.e. Emagic Unitor, etc) will match and/or beat the ST, due to MIDI time stamping) As far as internal synths, forget it. Even the most high-end hardware synths from the '80s hard significant delay on note triggering, getting worse with each additional voice needed simultaneously. Current software synths are sample-accurate on playback. No more timing smear!

 

I will say that Creator was great in that it really helped you focus on the song as that there weren't a gazillion options to tweak, etc. Full recall of all settings and zero noise make it so i could never go back though...

[krupkaj]

Not to dredge up an old topic, but something intrigued me in regards to the MIDI setup. I don't have a hard drive for it yet, but I have a Yamaha PSS-680 keyboard (heard some amazing stuff done with this simple 2-op synth), a Yamaha FB-01 fm sound generator, and a Roland MT-32 LA Synthesizer. If I was to use the Caged Artists editors, how would it work if I was to set up the equipment as follows:

 

Atari 1040STf (out to PSS-680)

Yamaha PSS-680 (out to FB-01)

Yamaha FB-01 (out to MT-32)

Roland MT-32 (out to 1040STf)

 

Would any of the Caged Artists editors work?

 

Tim (http://tamw.atari-users.net) has Cage Artist editor at least for FB-01 and MT-32 on his web site. You can also use Explorer 32 for your Roland, which is shareware now.