Curt Vendel Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 quoteAll video games use electronics. Unless you mean to say Higinbotham's display was not a CRT based display, which seems to be Ralph's definition of what is and is not a "video" game. Thats one of the issues I don't stand by with regards to Ralph Baer assestment of a video game.... if the device produces an interactive display (of any kind) whether it is an image on a TV or images on an Oscilliscope they are images nontheless and the images are interactive with the use of controls of any kind. His definition would in fact preclude the use of LCD's and LED's and therefor would mean that handhelds' from Coleco & Mattel in the 80's are not videogames and in turn the Gameboy, Lynx, and all other LCD games that followed are not videogames since your not lugging a 19" Magnavox around with you Curt The Atari History Museum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahfish Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 wow, it gets more and more interesting here .... after confusing a PDP-8 with the DPD-11, i should better shut up and listen to you guys .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubersaurus Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 The only copy of Spacewar's ROM image I can find on the web is the one on classicgaming which doesn't seem to work in MESS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Rhindle The Red: Wrong. From "Who Did It First" by Ralph Baer: Yep, that's the website quote I was referring to. Baer also seems to think that, since Higinbotham didn't patent his invention, or pursue development on it and make it into a commercial product, that somehow he loses his claim of being the first to create a video game. It wasn't enough that the demo was open to the public, and was used for 2 years, or that he thoroughly documented his work on it. How he ever sold his 'definition' to the court (in the Nintendo v. Sanders lawsuit) I'll never understand... The article about Higinbotham on that same site first appeared in an issue of Creative Computing Video & Arcade Games magazine, and is actually 3 pages long (if anybody wants, I can scan it in). I also heard his tennis game referred to as "Tennis for Two". I've met and talked with Baer in person, and he's one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. But the bottom line is, Higinbotham was the first to do it, with Steve Russell following him. Whether or not Baer (or anyone else) accepts that is their problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhindle The Red Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Scott Stilphen: How he ever sold his 'definition' to the court (in the Nintendo v. Sanders lawsuit) I'll never understand... As I understand it, at issue was whether Nintendo was infringing on Baer's patents in their video game technology. Nintendo used Higginbotham to try and show that video game technology was not new, so Baer had no right to patent it. Baer showed that by his definition of "video game" (as pertains to his patent), Higginbotham's game was not a "video game", so failed to support Nintendo's position. So, the court found in his favor. But a court decision, using a definition of "video game" that petains only to this specific patent doesn't make the definition universal. Baer's definition only has bearing on his patent and games related to his patent. So Baer is responsible for the first "Baer-type" video game, but not the first video game. And on another note, what of Sandy Douglas’s Noughts & Crosses programmed in 1949 on the EDSAC? Simulated screenshot of Noughts & Crosses A cumbersome input, no doubt, and very primitive "graphics", but a game played using a "video" display, nonetheless. Read about it here. (It's about three quarters of the page down.) You can download the simuator here. It has taken you centuries to even grasp what we developed eons of your years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro Rogue Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 quote: Originally posted by ubersaurus: The only copy of Spacewar's ROM image I can find on the web is the one on classicgaming which doesn't seem to work in MESS. We don't have a Spacewar rom image as far as I know, unless you're refering to the Spacewars (note the s) rom in the Arcade roms section. That would be the 1977 Cinemetronics game, which is yet another version of Spacewar to appear in the arcades (although one that tried to include a lot of the different hacked variations that appeared on the original PDP version over the years). You'd run that in Mame. As for the real PDP-1 version, while doing research for the Spacewar installment of my History of Computer Gaming series, I ran across one of the original sources here. The PDP's instructions and bit length are specific to it, so you'd have to be willing to sit down and write a compiler to actually compile this code, as well as a linker for any other needs. Likewise, if you found a binary version of the game I don't believe you could just expect to drop the image in to MESS and expect it to run. Perhaps you're not familiar with the "good old days" before real OS development, but in those days you'd have to write/run a program to actually load the program first. Some of the first rudimentary OS's were what's known as "batch processors" where they'd load "batches" of programs similar in nature and run them one after the other. Specific to the PDP-1, you have to remember this code was not stored in binary format in some media. The PDP-1 used paper tape for storage, which meant programs had to be loaded from the punched tape and stored on the punch tape. The code mentioned above is converted from a punched paper tape. What was unique about the PDP-1 days was that much of the support software was written by the students (at MIT) themseleves. Everything was in assembly. That Java emulated version of the game on the web, is simply a limited pdp-1 emu that's been made to automatically and specifically load the binary code of Spacewar (which they created themselves by writing a compiler to create the binary), and uses a custom screen routine for output. A true general purpose pdp-1 emu would need to have a mock CRT display, and mock flexowriter/papertape reader or at least a program that could take converted text code and simulate the process. Then you could actually load in the loader, than a compiler, then the actual Spacewar code and compile it, store it, then load that. And do the same for much of the other software out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahfish Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 yes, the edsac was what i was thinking of .... incredible to see a such small monitor next to this huge "computer" ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 Rhindle: Thanks for clearing that court case up. Wow, I can't believe Nintendo was trying to prove that video games weren't new...in the 60s! Talk about trying to stretch a chiclet to the moon... quoteAnd on another note, what of Sandy Douglas’s Noughts & Crosses programmed in 1949 on the EDSAC? Good question. Looks like a very primitive dot-matrix display (35x16, from the picture). Guess it depends on your definition of what constitutes a video display. How many "dots" (light bulbs/LEDs/LCD pixels/TV pixels, etc) can you matrix together before it can no longer be considered a dot-matrix or "electronic" display? I don't consider the old LED or LCD hand-held games video games, but rather electronic games. Certainly Gameboy qualifies as such. What about Adventurevision or Microvision? DP lists AV in their guide, and its display resolution appears comparable to the EDSAC's, whereas MV isn't listed but can certainly be viewed as the forerunner to Gameboy (same principle of LCD display, only with lower resolution). I think this is where the real definition of video game lies. [ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: Scott Stilphen ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Curt Vendel: Higinbotham created what could be considered the first video game using electronics... he did not market the product. Its the first commercial arcade game we're talking about, not the first video game or first home video game. Did the Brookhaven National Lab charged people to for their tours? If not, what if they did? If I have to pay a cover charge to get into an arcade full of games set on free play, I'm still paying to play the games quoteYou forget Steve Russell who sparked Bushnell and Pitts to make their video games in the first place, he never sold or patented his design either and made nothing from it. He (and countless other who contributed to it) wrote a program, whereas the others designed hardware to run their game "programs". Spacewar was certainly groundbreaking, but I don't think he's on equal footing, as far as being considered the sole "Father of". If you consider the first to do it the Father, then as it stands it's Higinbotham; if you count greatest contributions to, then it's both Baer and Bushnell. (Btw, here's a site with some information Spacewar) As for Pitts, didn't he develop his game about the same time Nolan did CS? He did about as much with his game as Higinbotham (and if he really made any serious money with it, then he was a fool not to follow it up). He's an important footnote, but not much more. This is one of those subjects that may never have a general consensus [ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: Scott Stilphen ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 Marty: you can emulate non-processor based games! You just have to emulate the entire circuit... Technically, you might be able to do that with SPICE (can't remember all of the acronym, but the CE is Circuit Emulator IIRC). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slapdash Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 Here's a response I sent to Scott who asked a bunch of people the question "what is a 'video' game?" via email... Might as well let you all see it: The problem is, there are too many ways to define anything, and most are perfectly logical. In a way, Baer is absolutely right in what he calls a videogame. Think of it this way; "video" refers very specfically to the TV industry. So, anything that operates on a TV is a videogame, and anything that does not isn't. Could you watch The Simpsons on a Tempest monitor? No? Not a "video" game. Gameboy? No? Not a "video" game. Actually, perhaps I should clarify... Where I think Baer gets it right is that a "video" game would be one that co-opts/produces a "video" signal. In this case Gameboy definitely doesn't fit because it uses a matrix/bitmap scheme, and vector doesn't apply because you control it differently. In another sense, you could use the name "TV games", although you then are forced to use less interactive pursuits such as videocassette games. But computer monitors come up both ways, as do some portables, because you can FUDGE a video signal to it (NTSC->VGA, Game Gear TV Tuner, etc). If you choose to draw the line in a different place, well... I'm also with Leonard in that I usually separate computer games from videogames. But this is a different hierarchy: electronic games, portables, pongs/dedicateds, (programmable) consoles, computer games, arcade games... There's another question that's remained unresolved over the years... What is correct, "video games" or "videogames". Perhaps it's time to solidify this. I propose that if you apply Baer's definition, it's "video games", and you basically end up only with pongs, programmable consoles/TV games, and CRT-based arcade games. But "videogames" is the true overarching definition that includes any arcade games, computer games and TV games. I still leave out LED and non-matrix LCD games and call them eletronic games, but if you want, hell, include them too. Also, regarding Noughts & Crosses on EDSAC, Higginbothan's Tennis and Space War, these should be more properly regarded as progenitors, or "proto" computer/video games. They paved the way in a sense, but weren't the "real deal" yet. (Of course, N&C and SW are probably not mere progenitors of COMPUTER games, but Tennis still seems too demo-ish to me -- more a historical aberration than anything). This is a common-enough thing when trying to define genres. For example, who is the first metal band? For me, it's Black Sabbath. But what about Blue Cheer? Or the MC5? Proto-metal! Hell, I had someone trying to convince me that the Beatles were the first metal band. I don't buy it, but I can see why he thought so, and maybe they ARE an early progenitor. Perhaps it's time to look at Higginbothan that way... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolenta Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Russ Perry Jr: What is correct, "video games" or "videogames". I've always gone with "videogames" (as opposed to video games or video-games) for one simple reason. The common name for the other video technologies is videotape and videodisc. Why should games be any different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 Russ: According to Len, Baer didn't consider Computer Space a video game at first because he thought it used a monitor (it used an actual TV set, as did a lot of the early arcade games). By this line of thinking, all arcade (raster) games that used a monitor would not fit his definition- basically every game produced since the early 70s! After having worked on arcade machines for over 8 years now, I can tell you that aside from some additional circuitry (most TVs use an RF input - this isn't needed with arcade monitors since the video signal isn't being 'broadcast' from a remote location) it's the same principle technology. In fact, most higher-end TV sets now are TV/monitor sets, which have direct video input jacks (RCA, S-video, etc.) that bypass the standard RF circuitry and help give you a better picture. I've run arcade games like Pac-Man on a TV (on my test rig). In fact, a few people have found that a regular 19" color TV tube can be used to replace Atari's arcade color vector tubes! Games run on an emulator such as Z26 are still video games, even though you're seeing them on a monitor. Nintendo had Gameboy store kiosks that used 13" TVs. There's a company that designed and sells(still ?) a device that allows you to use a TV with a Lynx. There's even a few old LED hand-helds that have been emulated. NEC's handheld had an optional TV Tuner device. What about Ben's VCSp? It doesn't take long to realize that Baer's definition quickly falls apart. Does the definition then change, depending on the type of screen used to view it? To be technically correct, it should. The term 'video game' (who came up with this term - was it Baer?) probably was created for the reasons you stated, but to me, "video games" encompasses many times, not just 'TV games' or 'raster games' (which would be more accurate IMHO). If you use it this way, then specific LED games (Virtual Boy = Adventurevision = EDSAC games) and LCD games (Lynx = Gameboy = Microvision) would fall under that. Something like Mattel's Football handheld wouldn't fit, since it's matrix 'resolution' so low that you couldn't even display an alphanumeric character with it. Same with those cheap LCD games that use specific character "images". This is why I was leaning more towards a definition that took into account the resolution of a given matrix (Btw, Microvision is being included in DP Guide #7, and no, I didn't lobby for it ). Video game or videogame debate I've always used video (adjective) game (noun). You don't see boardgame, electronicgame, puzzlegames, etc. Len: I've never seen videotape (one word) used as much. Why would it be specific to 'video'? I've seen microcassette, but not 8-tracktape or cassettetape [ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: Scott Stilphen ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolenta Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Scott Stilphen: [QB]Len: I've never seen videotape (one word) used as much. Why would it be specific to 'video'? I've seen microcassette, but not 8-tracktape or cassettetape{/QB] From Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary: videocassette videoconferencing videodisc video game videoland videophone videotape videotex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolenta Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Scott Stilphen: The term 'video game' (who came up with this term - was it Baer?) I don't think so. I think Magnavox began using the term 'video game' with the Odyssey 200. Whether this is the first instance of the word, I don't know. Sears called the original Pong a 'video skill game'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liquid_sky Posted March 12, 2002 Share Posted March 12, 2002 quoteThe only copy of Spacewar's ROM image I can find on the web is the one on classicgaming which doesn't seem to work in MESS What else is new?? I cant get it to run either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Android Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 quote: Originally posted by rolenta: From Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary: videocassette videoconferencing videodisc video game videoland videophone videotape videotex I know this is how the dictionary currently spells the word, but I think that this will change over time. Our magazine(s), and most magazines out there, use the term "videogame." I know the arguments both for and against combining the two words (I don't understand why no one writes "audiocassette" since the term "videocassette" is well-accepted. Still, my reason for using "videogame" is simple: it looks better, and it takes up less space in an article's word count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolenta Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Mark Androvich: Our magazine(s), and most magazines out there, use the term "videogame." The last thing I want to do is say that my Denny's partner is wrong, but I'll have to say it. EGM, Gamepro, and Game Informer, all call it "Video Games". I was shocked today when I read about Grand Theft Auto 3 in the current Newsweek and they called it a "videogame". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro Rogue Posted March 13, 2002 Share Posted March 13, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Russ Perry Jr: Marty: you can emulate non-processor based games! You just have to emulate the entire circuit... Technically, you might be able to do that with SPICE (can't remember all of the acronym, but the CE is Circuit Emulator IIRC). Heya Russ, Unfortunately, that would be a simulator then. You're simulating circuits, etc. However, you're not actually running something from the original setup on your computer (which is what emulation would involve). There's a fine line between what emulation and simulation is (hence a lot of the confusion). Since an emulator is also partialy a simulator (you are simulating the hardware involved to run - or emulate the actual program code of the game). Unless that non-processor based system has some form of actual code or other image that can be directly run on the computer, it's a simulation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 Jed Margolin (former Atari coin-op engineer) just posted this in the newsgroups: " Ralph Baer was predated by T.T. Goldsmith, Jr. working at Allen B. Du Mont Laboratories, which was famous for its oscilloscopes and was an early television pioneer. (They even had their own TV network.) See U.S. Patent 2,455,992 CATHODE-RAY TUBE AMUSEMENT DEVICE issued December 14, 1948 . You can download the patent at the Patent Office Web site (www.uspto.gov) in a weird TIF format or you can download it in PDF format from: http://www.jmargolin.com/patents/2455992.pdf Amazing! This is 10 years before Higinbotham.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt Vendel Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Curt Vendel:<STRONG>Higinbotham created what could be considered the first video game using electronics... he did not market the product. Its the first commercial arcade game we're talking about, not the first video game or first home video game.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Did the Brookhaven National Lab charged people to for their tours? If not, what if they did? If I have to pay a cover charge to get into an arcade full of games set on free play, I'm still paying to play the games <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote <STRONG>You forget Steve Russell who sparked Bushnell and Pitts to make their video games in the first place, he never sold or patented his design either and made nothing from it.</STRONG> He (and countless other who contributed to it) wrote a program, whereas the others designed hardware to run their game "programs". Spacewar was certainly groundbreaking, but I don't think he's on equal footing, as far as being considered the sole "Father of". If you consider the first to do it the Father, then as it stands it's Higinbotham; if you count greatest contributions to, then it's both Baer and Bushnell. (Btw, here's a <A HREF="http://www.gamesoffame.com/space/spacewar.html">site</a> with some information Spacewar) As for Pitts, didn't he develop his game about the same time Nolan did CS? He did about as much with his game as Higinbotham (and if he really made any serious money with it, then he was a fool not to follow it up). He's an important footnote, but not much more. This is one of those subjects that may never have a general consensus [ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: Scott Stilphen ] Software or dedicated hardware, if the end result is the ability to play a game on some form of display (Scope, TV, LCD or by candle light then its still a video game nonetheless... Thats true about general consensus, everyone is going have their point of view, valid points of reference and their personal favorite, but its really fun debates like this that bring out a lot of great information and I think all involved or just reading learn a lot from it, thanks for the additional input Scott! :-) Curt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 Please, don't thank me Dr. J, thank Jed Margolin http://www.jmargolin.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubersaurus Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 So emulation is impossible for computer space....I hope someday someoen can get a simulation of it goin. That would be a fun game to play sometime ;p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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