Pixelboy Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 (edited) There's no way to have a multi-colord maze, even with lower resolution? But the castle in Mr.Do!s Castle looks better than the 5200 one- isn't that some different mode? Look closely at Mr Do's Castle's graphics on the CV, and you'll notice that there's never more than 2 colors per scanline, per tile. The programmers just coped with the graphical limitations of the CV and did a great job with it. Also, there's no such thing as "lower resolution" on the CV. All screen modes are 256x192 pixels, and all background tiles are always 8x8 pixels. EDIT: Sorry, that's not quite correct: There is another lower resolution mode available on the CV, which uses "big pixels" that equate to 4x4 pixels, and each of these "big pixels" has its own independent color. It's used by "Smurf Paint & Play Workshop" and also "Cabbage Patch Kid Picture Show". As you can guess, that mode is useless for anything else than basic paint programs, although I imagine someone could make a decent version of Tetris with it... Edited November 1, 2006 by Pixelboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV Gus Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 When you say "two colors," do you mean "screen color" (nothing) and a color? So what you mean is that, in a line in a tile, only two choices are there: A color or nothing. Does this mean all 8 dots in a line in a tile (on-on-on-on-on-on-on-on), or can it be any of the 8, like on-on-off-on-off-off-off-on. So something like this, in a 8X8 tile set-up, would look like this: RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBRR BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBRRRR BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBRRRR These are four lines in three tiles. The third one just has those dots on. R=red, B=blue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+5-11under Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 (edited) There's no way to have a multi-colord maze, even with lower resolution? But the castle in Mr.Do!s Castle looks better than the 5200 one- isn't that some different mode? Look closely at Mr Do's Castle's graphics on the CV, and you'll notice that there's never more than 2 colors per scanline, per tile. The programmers just coped with the graphical limitations of the CV and did a great job with it. Also, there's no such thing as "lower resolution" on the CV. All screen modes are 256x192 pixels, and all background tiles are always 8x8 pixels. EDIT: Sorry, that's not quite correct: There is another lower resolution mode available on the CV, which uses "big pixels" that equate to 4x4 pixels, and each of these "big pixels" has its own independent color. It's used by "Smurf Paint & Play Workshop" and also "Cabbage Patch Kid Picture Show". As you can guess, that mode is useless for anything else than basic paint programs, although I imagine someone could make a decent version of Tetris with it... Sometime between me looking at your post and hitting the reply button, you edited your post! The problem with the 4X4 mode is there's no advantage to it; you can get the same results (and better) using one of the graphics modes. There's also a 40 x 24 text mode, with 6X8 pixels. 5-11under edit: tried attaching data sheet, but it must be too large. I couldn't find it again, but did find this: http://bifi.msxnet.org/msxnet/tech/tms9918a.txt Edited November 1, 2006 by 5-11under Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV Gus Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 In other words, a multi-colored maze is impossible, no matter what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixelboy Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 When you say "two colors," do you mean "screen color" (nothing) and a color? So what you mean is that, in a line in a tile, only two choices are there: A color or nothing. Does this mean all 8 dots in a line in a tile (on-on-on-on-on-on-on-on), or can it be any of the 8, like on-on-off-on-off-off-off-on. So something like this, in a 8X8 tile set-up, would look like this: RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBRR BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBRRRR BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBRRRR These are four lines in three tiles. The third one just has those dots on. R=red, B=blue. I'm not sure I'm following your example, but allow me to try to explain it my way: In graphic mode #2, you could define an 8x8 tile like this: 00011000 --- 1=white, 0=transparent (black) 01100110 --- 1=medium blue, 0=black (non-transparent) 11110011 --- 1=dark red, 0=white 00110001 --- 1=light yellow, 0=dark red 00000000 --- 1=grey, 0=light green (this entire line is light green) 11111111 --- 1=grey, 0=light green (this entire line is grey) 10000001 --- 1=magenta, 0=black 00111100 --- 1=white, 0=black (non-transparent) So for each line inside an 8x8 tile, you can assign a color to the 1s and another color to the 0s. You've got 16 colors to choose from (color #0 is transparent, but if you use it in a tile, it comes out black, like color #1, because transparency can only be applied to sprites, AFAIK). Hope this clarifies your understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV Gus Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 I'm not sure I'm following your example, but allow me to try to explain it my way: In graphic mode #2, you could define an 8x8 tile like this: 00011000 --- 1=white, 0=transparent (black) 01100110 --- 1=medium blue, 0=black (non-transparent) 11110011 --- 1=dark red, 0=white 00110001 --- 1=light yellow, 0=dark red 00000000 --- 1=grey, 0=light green (this entire line is light green) 11111111 --- 1=grey, 0=light green (this entire line is grey) 10000001 --- 1=magenta, 0=black 00111100 --- 1=white, 0=black (non-transparent) So for each line inside an 8x8 tile, you can assign a color to the 1s and another color to the 0s. You've got 16 colors to choose from (color #0 is transparent, but if you use it in a tile, it comes out black, like color #1, because transparency can only be applied to sprites, AFAIK). ********************************** Boy, am I learning alot about CV graphics here. From what you said before, I thought that each tile could show one color in each line of 8 dots. You could use a different color for each line, so a tile with several color stripes- like the stripes on the American flag- could be done. Please remember that I don't think of screen color as a color- it just means nothing is there. So the enemy bugs in CV Ladybug are just one color things to me. But your example here tells me that I was wrong- that each line in a tile can have 2 colors, independent of the other lines (in your example, the third line has red and white, and the fifth could be grey and green). You don't even have that 2 dots=1 dot multicolor thing the Commodor computers have. So the CV can do a lot more than I thought. So the right edge of a barrier in Ms. Pac-Man could look like this (3 tiles across): RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYRR YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYRR YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYRR YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR So now I really don't get why the mazes in Ms. Pac-Man can't be multicolor, the CV seems to be better than the 5200, or even the 7800! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixelboy Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 From what you said before, I thought that each tile could show one color in each line of 8 dots. You could use a different color for each line, so a tile with several color stripes- like the stripes on the American flag- could be done. Yep, that could be done. Please remember that I don't think of screen color as a color- it just means nothing is there. So the enemy bugs in CV Ladybug are just one color things to me. As I stated before, the transparent color is only applicable to sprites, not background tiles. If you consider black (or blue for sky color) as a "screen color", that's just how your mind perceives it. In reality, there is no such thing as a "screen color" on the CV. The screen is 32x24 tiles, which equates to 256x192 pixels. There's no way to have an 8x8 space with no tile in it, the CV doesn't work that way. About sprites, you can set the CV to display 8x8 sprites or 16x16 sprites, but not both as the same time. Furthermore, you can only use two colors for the ENTIRE sprite (no "per scanline" stuff here), and one of these colors can be the transparent color (or not). So the right edge of a barrier in Ms. Pac-Man could look like this (3 tiles across): RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYRR YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYRR YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYRR YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR So now I really don't get why the mazes in Ms. Pac-Man can't be multicolor, the CV seems to be better than the 5200, or even the 7800! You're making the basic mistake that most beginners make when they start working with CV graphics: You're using more colors than you are allowed! In your example above, you're actually using three colors, namely "R", "Y" and the "invisible" color which you are not representing in your tile diagram. Again, there is no such thing as a "screen color" on the CV. You only have two colors (per scanline, per tile) to work with, and that's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV Gus Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYRR YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYRR YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYRR YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR You're making the basic mistake that most beginners make when they start working with CV graphics: You're using more colors than you are allowed! In your example above, you're actually using three colors, namely "R", "Y" and the "invisible" color which you are not representing in your tile diagram. Again, there is no such thing as a "screen color" on the CV. You only have two colors (per scanline, per tile) to work with, and that's it. ************************ Oh, yeah, I see it- the third tile. I'm using 3: black (nothing), yellow, and red- I see now. So each line in your example actually acts as a single color on a mini-screen of its own! I think the C-64 has something like that. So my example would work if it was like this: RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYRR YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYRRR YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYRRR YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR The red at the end of the barrier here is like a red cap. That tile only has two colors. Or would it work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixelboy Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Oh, yeah, I see it- the third tile. I'm using 3: black (nothing), yellow, and red- I see now. Yep, now you're getting it. So each line in your example actually acts as a single color on a mini-screen of its own! I think the C-64 has something like that. Yeah, I guess you could look at it that way... I think... It's simpler to say that each line in a tile can have two colors. And that's for graphic mode #2; don't get me started on graphic mode #1, which is far more restrictive! So my example would work if it was like this: RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYRR YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYRRR YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYRRR YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR The red at the end of the barrier here is like a red cap. That tile only has two colors. Or would it work? If I'm understanding your example correctly, it still would not work, because you're still using 'Y', "R' and transparent colors on your last tile (on rows 3,4,5 and 6). Separating the tiles shows your error: RRRRRRRR-RRRRRRRR RRRRRRRR-RRRRRRRR-R YYYYYYYY-YYYYYYYY-YYRR YYYYYYYY-YYYYYYYY-YYRRR YYYYYYYY-YYYYYYYY-YYRRR YYYYYYYY-YYYYYYYY-YYRRR RRRRRRRR-RRRRRRRR-RR RRRRRRRR-RRRRRRRR-R The proper way to do it would be: RRRRRRRR-RRRRRRRR-OOOOOOOO RRRRRRRR-RRRRRRRR-ROOOOOOO YYYYYYYY-YYYYYYYR-RROOOOOO YYYYYYYY-YYYYYYYY-RRROOOOO YYYYYYYY-YYYYYYYY-RRROOOOO YYYYYYYY-YYYYYYYR-RROOOOOO RRRRRRRR-RRRRRRRR-ROOOOOOO RRRRRRRR-RRRRRRRR-OOOOOOOO Where "O" is the "background color", as you would say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV Gus Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 Sorry, I lost count- the letters are of different sizes. What I meant was that the first two tiles were just red and yellow, and that third one- the one all the way to the right- was only black and red, because (if I got it right) you MUST define both colors, you can't just leave it out and get nothing (black, in this case). What I tried to do was a multicolor barrier, with a red cap at the end there. During the weekend, I looked at the 5200 version of Ms. Pac Man. The mazes are multicolor, but I also had a picture of the arcade version- the 5200 is wrong. If you count the dots in the maze, you see that it is not the same as the arcade version. The 7800 version is right, but not the 5200. I checked out Opcode's current version here http://www.opcodegames.com/pacman.html The mazes are not multicolor, but they are right- count the dots, and its the same as the arcade version. So I'm thinking that Opcode chose not to make multicolor mazes so he could keep the dots and shape right- maybe in the CV and 5200 you can have multicolor mazes, OR they can be shaped like the arcade, but you can't have both. Opcode went with the right shape. But you could do multicolor mazes, if like the 5200 you don't care if the shape is different. Or is that wrong? You'd sure know! Thanks in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV Gus Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 But there is something about it that says it all- you get THREE games, with Pac Man Plus, you never see that one! All for the price of one, and it probably has options, like Space Invaders. So, if you don't buy it, I don't want to know you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV Gus Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 Is there a programmer's instruction book anywhere for programming CV or MSX games? I can program Commodore and IBM computers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenfused Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 During the weekend, I looked at the 5200 version of Ms. Pac Man. The mazes are multicolor, but I also had a picture of the arcade version- the 5200 is wrong. If you count the dots in the maze, you see that it is not the same as the arcade version. The 7800 version is right, but not the 5200. The 7800 version is also lacking one row. You are out 6 dots on the first screen. Unless you play the pacman collection version which adds back the missing row (and corrects the score for the energizers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV Gus Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 The 7800 version is also lacking one row. You are out 6 dots on the first screen. Unless you play the pacman collection version which adds back the missing row (and corrects the score for the energizers.) Really? It's missing a row? I didn't see that, I'll look again. So does that mean that not even the 7800 could get it all right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV Gus Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Well, I just checked- the maze is right on the 7800, guess they just left out those six dots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacManPlus Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Well, I just checked- the maze is right on the 7800, guess they just left out those six dots. Actually, the original 7800 version *is* wrong: Screenshot showing the original 7800 Ms. Pac-Man and the one from Pac-Man Collection Look at the two boxes to the immediate left and right of the inverted 'T' just above the monsters' pen. You can clearly see a row missing from the original that was added back by Ken and myself on the '7800 Pac-Man Collection'. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Tomlin Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 The 7800 version is also lacking one row. You are out 6 dots on the first screen. Unless you play the pacman collection version which adds back the missing row (and corrects the score for the energizers.) Really? It's missing a row? I didn't see that, I'll look again. So does that mean that not even the 7800 could get it all right? And remember, the 7800 version was written by the same people who were responsible for the arcade version! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opcode Posted November 8, 2006 Author Share Posted November 8, 2006 (edited) Since this thread has been hijacked, let me just say that: no mere 7800 hack can come close to the ColecoVision version of Pac-Man Collection in terms of arcade accuracy, no matter if it was programmed by GCC itself or not, period. Maybe when Bryan finishes his 5200 version, it would rank a close 2nd. Till there, no real competition... Now you 7800 fanboy scum could please stay away from this ColecoVision thread I'm just kidding guys... When are you planning to have the 7800 PMC out? I want to know how late I will be. Eduardo Edited November 8, 2006 by opcode Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breakpack Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 I love all of my PacMan children....all of you!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacManPlus Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 (edited) Since this thread has been hijacked, let me just say that: no mere 7800 hack can come close to the ColecoVision version of Pac-Man Collection in terms of arcade accuracy, no matter if it was programmed by GCC itself or not, period. Maybe when Bryan finishes his 5200 version, it would rank a close 2nd. Till there, no real competition... Now you 7800 fanboy scum could please stay away from this ColecoVision thread I'm just kidding guys... When are you planning to have the 7800 PMC out? I want to know how late I will be. Eduardo But mine has more games j/k I actually have to thank you. Quite a few people were asking me to make a 7800 Pac-Man collection because of yours that was coming out. I didn't think I could do it. But enough people persisted, and I attempted it, and (I hope) was successful! I wasn't trying to come anywhere near your expertise (I couldn't anyway - the work you do is incredible!). Programming abilities aside, you have the advantage of having the same CPU the arcade game has! (The Colecovision uses a Z80, right?) Your game looks excellent! To answer your question, I'm shooting for December 1st. Bob Edited November 8, 2006 by PacManPlus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breakpack Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 And Coleco PMC will be out Dec.2? MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <dances a jig> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV Gus Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Yes, thanks- I do see it now. The blocks are not the same size, so fewer dots. To the 7800 guys- what games, exactly, will your cartridge have? Opcode's will have Pacman, Ms. Pacman, and Pacman Plus. It will also have all of those options, like in Space Invaders Collection. Thanks to Pixelboy and Opcode, I finally understand CV graphics- each tile (character) is 8x8, like the C-64 or Vic 20. Each row of 8 dots in each tile can be two colors, on and off, but you have to tell the CV what the on AND off will be. The C-64 had up to four colors per tile: Nothing (screen behind it), two shared colors, and a color that each one could have for itself. Problem was, when you went multicolor, each dot became two dots, so the horizontal resolution was only 160- but you could mix multi and single color tiles. There was also that weird thing where a tile could have its own screen color. The reason it is so hard to do a multicolor maze in Ms. Pacman is because you want the screen everywhere to be black. That would be the "off" thing. That would leave just one other color. You COULD do multicolor mazes, but to "fit everything" you would have to change the shape of the maze- the way Opcode has it now, you can't make it multicolor. So you have two choices- multicolor maze, or "right" maze. Guess the 5200 has the same problem. It will be cool to see the 7800 homebrew and Opcode's CV version. It will be almost impossible to beat Pacman and Pacman Plus, but maybe the mazes in Ms. Pacman will look a little better- or will they be more blocky? I AM going to buy Pacman Collection! And those other arcade games he's going to do, too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV Gus Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Huh, just looked at the pictures of both 7800 versions, and Opcode's- even without multicolor, Opcode's is better looking. Opcode's http://www.opcodegames.com/pacman.html 7800 ones http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?a...st&id=63052 http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?a...st&id=63051 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breakpack Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 Huh, just looked at the pictures of both 7800 versions, and Opcode's- even without multicolor, Opcode's is better looking. Opcode's http://www.opcodegames.com/pacman.html 7800 ones http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?a...st&id=63052 http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?a...st&id=63051 True,but you got to remember,the 7800 version is a hack of the original Ms.Pac. And a HELL of a hack at that!Opcode's is more authentic since he coded from scratch,but the 7800 is awesome in it's own right There's BOTH AWESOME ,ok???!!Im gettin them both dannit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CV Gus Posted November 9, 2006 Share Posted November 9, 2006 I have the 2600, 5200, and 7800 versions. They're all graet, but the stupid 5200 controllers ruin the 5200 version- you can't make sharp turns right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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