7800 Controller Repair

[Scumdogg]

After much searching around the apartment, i finally located all the parts to make my 7800 run when my 2600 died out on me. Only problem is, all of a sudden neither of the controllers work. They haven't been in the greatest shape since i first got them (thrift store find), but they always worked. Now neither joystick responds to anything. The buttons are okay though.

 

So, can anything be done about this short of buying replacements? I was going to just open them up right away, but i thought i should consult some experts before proceeding. Thanks in advance for any assistance.

[jaybird3rd]

The first thing I would try is using different controllers (possibly even 2600 controllers) to confirm that it's a problem with the joysticks and not with the console. If you can get other controllers to work, I'd say it's probably some loose or broken wires inside the joystick cable. Try the obvious things: open it up and make sure that the wires are firmly attached on the joystick side (I'm assuming these are ProLine joysticks), that the joystick and triggers are making proper contact with the dome buttons, and that everything inside is clean. If you still can't get it to work, chances are you'll need to replace the joystick cable. I believe that Best Electronics sells replacement cables for $6 each.

[jbanes]

The problem is most likely that the stick is misaligned with the metal domes. Fair Warning: These sticks are a real PAIN to work on. The way that the joystick is designed upside down means that it's difficult to put them back together with everything aligned correctly. Now with that out of the way...

 

Depending on the condition of the domes, there should be a slight to very noticable "click" every time you move the joystick. This is the cross under the joystick pressing up on the domes, and thus causing the domes to complete the circuit. It's a pretty simple device, so not too much can go wrong. (It's also possible that the wires are corroded through, but I think this is unlikely.) If you're not feeling the "click", then you need to realign things inside the stick.

 

All you need to do is crack these suckers open and take a look at what the cross on the bottom of the board is doing. You'll probably find that the nubs on the ends of the cross are no longer centered over the metal domes. My recommendation is to recenter the cross, then use scotch or electrical tape over each end of the the cross to hold things in place. Then put the joystick back together, making certain to tighten the screw(s) well. Once that's done, you can test the joystick.

[Paranoid]

Best Electronics sells new cables, but they've got limited stock, only 2 per customer. They also sell PCBs for the ProLine.

[Scumdogg]

It's definitely in the controllers and not the 7800 itself, i already tested the system out with a Genesis controller. Every 2600 joystick i've gotten has been broken too.

 

Sounds reasonably easy to diagnose the problem though, thanks. I'll get those opened up today and see what i can do.

[Bruce Tomlin]

If it were me, I'd take the stupid things apart (taking care to desolder and save the resistors for later), then rewire a NES pad using the cables and resistors from the stupid prolines.

[jaybird3rd]

If it were me, I'd take the stupid things apart (taking care to desolder and save the resistors for later), then rewire a NES pad using the cables and resistors from the stupid prolines.

... or just disconnect the cables and send them to me so I can install them inside a pair of nice new Radica Space Invaders arcade-quality 7800 controllers!

 

(Sorry, I couldn't resist the plug. After all, Some of the newer members might not be aware of the RSI stick modification, and Scumdogg sounds like he could use some new controllers!)

Edited October 2, 2006 by jaybird3rd

[Scumdogg]

I could use some new controllers to be sure, and those look awesome. Unfortunately, an upcoming wedding is draining the hell out of my purchasing abilities.

 

I might give this NES controller plan a shot, sounds like it could be fun...and certainly more comfortable to use.

[Paranoid]

Hmnnn... if I had the choice of playing retro 7800 games on a crappy, cheap, NES d-pad...

 

Or a high quality, micro-switch, ball joystick like the RSI stick...

 

I'd have to say the choice would be a no brainer.

 

I've never got why people would convert NES d-pads to the 7800 (or any other STICK oriented console, for that matter). I mean, as far as D-pads go, other than kind of being responsible for making d-pads go mainstream (a dubious honor at best), the NES d-pads aren't remarkable in any other way. It isn't like they're remarkably well designed or ergonomic or well engineered. They're really a pretty basic, unrefined d-pad.

[jbanes]

Hmnnn... if I had the choice of playing retro 7800 games on a crappy, cheap, NES d-pad...

 

Or a high quality, micro-switch, ball joystick like the RSI stick...

 

I'd have to say the choice would be a no brainer.

Yet one costs $$$ while the other just takes a kit-bash of equipment that most people already have.

 

I've never got why people would convert NES d-pads to the 7800 (or any other STICK oriented console, for that matter).

Stick based? You sure about that?

 

 

I mean, as far as D-pads go, other than kind of being responsible for making d-pads go mainstream (a dubious honor at best), the NES d-pads aren't remarkable in any other way. It isn't like they're remarkably well designed or ergonomic or well engineered. They're really a pretty basic, unrefined d-pad.

Which is why everyone mods them. Basic is *good* when you have limited electronics experience. You don't get much more basic than NES and Genesis pads. The Genesis pad is already compatible, sooooo, only the NES pad need modification. Of course, you do need to make a few tweaks to the Genny pad if you want full 7800 support.

 

Of course, he already is using Genny pads, so modding NES pads *is* dubious. Unless he just likes NES pads more.

[Scumdogg]

Hmnnn... if I had the choice of playing retro 7800 games on a crappy, cheap, NES d-pad...

 

Or a high quality, micro-switch, ball joystick like the RSI stick...

 

I'd have to say the choice would be a no brainer.

 

I've never got why people would convert NES d-pads to the 7800 (or any other STICK oriented console, for that matter). I mean, as far as D-pads go, other than kind of being responsible for making d-pads go mainstream (a dubious honor at best), the NES d-pads aren't remarkable in any other way. It isn't like they're remarkably well designed or ergonomic or well engineered. They're really a pretty basic, unrefined d-pad.

 

 

I agree on all points, but when you've got no money and a box full of NES controllers you're not using, that skews the decision a bit. And as for the choice in controller conversions, my guess is that the NES pads are used so often because they're easy for the amateur tinkerer to work with, cheap, and plentiful. There are far more spectacular controllers out there, to be sure, but they can get pricey.

 

EDIT: I guess all my points were already covered when i was typing. I vastly prefer the Genesis D-Pad to the NES D-Pad. BUT, my experience in modifying such things is limited at best. I'm just starting to learn, and i have more NES controllers i'd be willing to risk destroying than i do Genesis controllers.

Edited October 2, 2006 by Scumdogg

[Paranoid]

The Euro 7800 pad is HARDLY indicative of the design of the majority of games for the 7800. To wit, the games were designed with a JOYSTICK in mind. The 7800 pad was simply a concession to the quirky tastes of the European market.

 

An RSI stick, if you DIY, will cost you about $5 for the stick... and, if you splurge and buy yourself a new 7800 cable, about $5 for the cable. If you've got a 7800 Proline to give donor parts, you can remove that cost. It doesn't get much cheaper than that... and, if you can mod a NES controller, you can mod an RSI stick.

 

Again, I just don't see WHY you would modify a NES stick (unless you had a bucket FULL of them)... when there are SO MUCH better choices out there. Even if you DID have a bucket full of them, it just seems that your investment in time and additional parts would make it much more logical to go with the RSI stick. SO much better, for hardly any additional effort.

 

If you have Jay do the work for you, I think you add an additional $20 to your total... and, honestly, that is a bargain, if you go that route.

Edited October 2, 2006 by Paranoid

[jbanes]

The Euro 7800 pad is HARDLY indicative of the design of the majority of games for the 7800.

Is to. [/end childish response mode]

 

To wit, the games were designed with a JOYSTICK in mind.

Designed with possibly the WORST joystick ever conceived "in mind". The joypads aren't much better, but a lot of games post-Euro release were at least designed with the joypad in mind. In fact, I've found that most 7800 games that require two buttons work best with the joypad. With the notable exception of Centipede (which plays quite well with the joypad), the remainder of the 2600 & 7800 library works best with a plain-jane CX-40 or Flashback joystick.

 

The 7800 pad was simply a concession to the quirky tastes of the European market.

Because joypads were so common in Europe.

 

From everything I know, the joypad was an attempt to compete with Nintendo. The Proline wasn't doing it, so Atari released the joypad with their next 7800 redesign. (Which happened to be the European version.) There's no good reason why Atari didn't release the Joypad accessory in the states, but it is clear why it wasn't bundled: Trameil had a warehouse full of 7800's already packed full of Prolines.

 

An RSI stick, if you DIY, will cost you about $5 for the stick...

Not sure where you're getting the RSI sticks, but they retail for around $15-$20. If you've got a $5 source that's accessible to everyone, don't hold out, man!

 

If you have Jay do the work for you, I think you add an additional $20 to your total... and, honestly, that is a bargain, if you go that route.

A bargain or not, some people have tight finances.

 

$20 + $5 + $5 > Affordable

 

Q.E.D.

[shadow460]

Game stop liquidated their RSI games for $5 each. I've also seen that price in thrifts. I've got one NIB and one sitting there wondering why is functions as a NES controller.

 

There are tons of 9 wire controller cables out there the have the same serial port looking plug on them and actually have all 9 wires in them. Sega extension cables are $4 each around here. The Pro Line specific parts can also be had for a couple of dollars. It's been a while since I ripped one, but I think there's a couple resistors and a few contact domes inside and that's it. RSI has the microswitches, so all you need is a pair of resistors, some hookup wire and the cable and you're all set. IIRC, you don't need any arts from the Pro Line at all. That's good if you ever want to sell the system or if someone like me breaks a Pro Line and needs a replacement to buy.

[Paranoid]

FWIW...

 

I most often use my FB2 sticks or my RSI 7800 sticks for ALL my retro machines that use an Atari DA-9 connection stick (so, my Colecovision and my 800xl also).

 

I've got two rebuilt Proline sticks (using new BEST PCBs). And, while they work better rebuilt, they still basically suck.

 

Maybe I'm wrong about the euro-pad reflecting wonky European tastes... but, I'm thinking the d-pad based SMS was the dominant paridigm in europe by this point, and Europe was operating on a fairly clean slate... not having had the kind of frenzy around gaming pre-crash that had existed in the States. But I'm willing to bet that Atari had market research that showed Europeans were turning their noses up at the Proline sticks, while Americans were still embracing the joystick and uncertain about this emerging d-pad technology.

 

Yup... if you're paying more than $10 for an RSI stick, you're paying too much. Soon they'll be showing up in thrift stores left and right.

 

You can also easily convert the Jakks Ms. Pac Man stick to a 7800 stick. It also uses microswitches, and has two buttons... and actually has a more traditional form factor. (You can hold it like a CX26).

 

Those also are easy to pick up for as little as $.50 from garage sales and thrift stores.

[shadow460]

I just tightened my other Pro Line and tested it with Commando. The Pro Line isn't the best stick, but it does the job. It is probably not the stick you'd wanna beat Commando with on the hardest difficulty.

 

Tightening them is easy. You need a corrugated cardboard piece about three inches in diameter. When you open the stick, you'll see the white foam that centers the stick. Cut this design out of your cardboard and enlarge the center hole of the cardobard just a bit. Now cut out the part of your cardboard disc that goes under the bottom contact dome (the one that is pressed when you move the stick up). Tweak it as necessary and you should have a nice tight stick within minutes.

But, it's a Pro Line.

 

What's a CX-26 anyway? I thought the Pro Line was a CX-24 and the common sticks are CX-40. That leaves the CX-26 to be the wireless joystick, or am I wrong?

[Urchlay]

From everything I know, the joypad was an attempt to compete with Nintendo. The Proline wasn't doing it, so Atari released the joypad with their next 7800 redesign. (Which happened to be the European version.) There's no good reason why Atari didn't release the Joypad accessory in the states, but it is clear why it wasn't bundled: Trameil had a warehouse full of 7800's already packed full of Prolines.

 

Hm, I'm in the US and I've managed to find 3 of the 7800 joypads in local used-game stores... was it *never* released here, or just in limited quantities?

 

I agree that most 7800 games suck with the pad... but then the Proline sucks too. I use a CX-40 or a Wico 2600 stick for any of the games that don't absolutely need the 2nd fire button (I'm even pretty good at one-button Xevious). About the nicest thing I can think of to say about the Proline is, "Well, at least it ain't a 5200 stick".

 

I even play NES with a joystick, my friends think I'm a freak...

 

An RSI stick, if you DIY, will cost you about $5 for the stick...

 

Just bought the last one in stock at CompUSA for $5. Haven't modded it yet, but I'm looking forward to it.

 

For some reason, I keep finding Sega Genesis 3-button pads at the thrift store for $3. There's never an actual Genesis console or any games, though. Also picked up a Flashback 2 (minus the power supply) for $6, which was worth it for the joysticks alone.

 

I really need to mod a couple of my Wico sticks... they have 2 fire buttons, but only one is active at a time. Couple of resistors and they'd make great 7800 controllers (and still be 2600-compatible).

[jbanes]

Hm, I'm in the US and I've managed to find 3 of the 7800 joypads in local used-game stores... was it *never* released here, or just in limited quantities?

From what I've been told, they were NEVER released in the U.S.. Apparently, they were quite a popular import item, though, so there are plenty around. I have one myself, and can easily obtain more.

 

 

Just bought the last one in stock at CompUSA for $5. Haven't modded it yet, but I'm looking forward to it.

Okay, I want to know why everyone's stores have these things cheap, while mine charge full price.

 

Sometimes I hate Chicago.

 

For some reason, I keep finding Sega Genesis 3-button pads at the thrift store for $3.

That's not too surprising. People can't give away their Gennys. They're just not considered a very collectable item. *shrug*

[Paranoid]

There was a thread recently, Shawn Sr. bought himself a set of the Proline Euro sticks from Best Electronics, and almost instantly offered them up for sale here. That kind of summarizes MY opinion about the Euro thumb-pad controller. Why?!? Heh.

 

I didn't need to buy a set to figure out I'd feel that way, though.

 

I say CX-26 when I mean CX-40. I'm just not good at keeping things like that straight, and I assume most people figure out what I mean...

 

Funny you should mention playing NES with a stick. There is another user who is outspoken about joystick preferences who plays NES with the NES advantage. I have a NES advantage and, I don't like it for Super Mario Bros. It just doesn't feel right. This guy, though... is a fanatic for the 5200 stick (like me), and if he happens across this thread, you're almost CERTAINLY going to hear his opinion on this issue. But I'll summarize for you, as I'm a card carrying member of the Temple of the 5200 Stick, as well.

 

The 5200 stick is one of the most elegent and innovative controllers ever to be released, it is probably as innovative on a relative scale as the Wii stick is today. The problems with the 5200 controller surround two major causes, one... designers just didn't know how to write code for analog sticks. They wrote games with I/O routines that were suited to digital sticks, or they ported code writen for digital sticks, and never converted the I/O routines. The problem here wasn't the sticks, it was the games. The sticks get stuck with the blame because the probem manifests itself in unplayable games due to bad control. But the sticks work fine, as long as the game is designed to accomodate them. The other problem that seems to cause people to judge the 5200 sticks in a negative light is the flex circuit... which was simply a case of an early adoption of an unproven technology... a technology which is now very common in Cel phones and cordless phones.

 

Personally, the 7800 stick is actually far worse. It actually is designed to TRY and address some of the issues of the 5200 stick, and you can see the influence of the 5200 stick in its design. They were trying to kind of come up with a hybrid between the 5200 design and the 2600 stick engineering, but they really blew it again. Most of the ways the Proline sticks suck have been addressed here... but they're also actually TOO narrow, and having the two buttons on opposite sides is a bad idea, too. You have to reach around in an awkward way to reach button two. Everything about the 7800 proline actually makes it less comfortable and more awkward to use for any extended period than *any* other (actual) Atari (brand) stick. The Cx 52 and Cx 40 are both far superior sticks, despite the design flaws of both.

[shadow460]

I liked using the one 5200 controller that still had its rubber boot. Centering was not a problem for it.

 

I don't own a 5200, though. It's been a long time since I played one.

[Urchlay]

There was a thread recently, Shawn Sr. bought himself a set of the Proline Euro sticks from Best Electronics, and almost instantly offered them up for sale here. That kind of summarizes MY opinion about the Euro thumb-pad controller. Why?!? Heh.

 

I didn't need to buy a set to figure out I'd feel that way, though.

 

Well, I got one of mine for $3, and the other two were part of a huge load of stuff where the guy basically threw them in. I'd never have bought them if I hadn't run across them randomly, for cheap. I don't really use them, though (I have a friend who grew up on NES pads, so he uses the Atari pad when he comes over, and seems to like it OK).

 

I have a NES advantage and, I don't like it for Super Mario Bros. It just doesn't feel right.

 

I play SMB about equally well with a NES pad or the Advantage... but the stick really shines on Ms. Pac-Man, Tengen Pac-Man, and Marble Madness, none of which I can control at all with a D-pad.

 

I don't insist that a joystick is inherently better than a D-pad... but they're better for me, whose gaming reflexes were developed at a young age with joysticks only (I was 17 or 18 before I ever even saw a NES-type pad). If I'd grown up with the NES, I'd probably be playing Atari with a Genny pad or the Euro pad...

 

designers just didn't know how to write code for analog sticks. They wrote games with I/O routines that were suited to digital sticks, or they ported code writen for digital sticks, and never converted the I/O routines. The problem here wasn't the sticks, it was the games.

 

I'll buy that. Some of the ports from the 8-bit seem like they must have been slapped together in a hurry, and never even playtested. Not actually the controller's fault at all.

 

The other problem that seems to cause people to judge the 5200 sticks in a negative light is the flex circuit... which was simply a case of an early adoption of an unproven technology... a technology which is now very common in Cel phones and cordless phones.

 

...Atari should have known better than to adopt a technology that wasn't ready for prime-time. (Yeah, I know, I'm looking at it with 20/20 hindsight, and I'm admittedly biased...)

 

Actually, the flex circuit isn't the only annoyance for me. I hate the carbon dots (which corrode, or erode, or anyway need fixing constantly.) Yes, I know they can be replaced with aluminum or gold, but they should have had metal contacts in the first place... and I hate the major pain involved in taking them apart to fix them (which has to be done way too often, due to the carbon contacts). Also, they have to be taken apart to be calibrated (would it have killed them to include a couple of trim pots like my old Radio Shack analog sticks?), and they seem to need different calibration for different 5200s (though I only own two, so it might just be that one of mine's broken). Finally, the lack of proper self-centering drives me nuts (and it's even worse if the calibration is slightly off, so you have to consciously "center" the stick in a spot that's not actually the center).

 

I do agree that, IF they're cleaned and adjusted, IF the game I want to play is properly coded to use them, and IF the rubber centering boot is in good shape, they're very usable... but that's a lot of IF's. And after all that tweaking, if I put the controller on a shelf for 6 months, it'll need tweaking again when I get ready to use it again. I end up playing 5200 games on an emulator more than I ever do on the real 5200

 

(Heh, and my other 5200 pet peeve is the lack of end labels on the carts. I had to buy a label maker just for this purpose...)

 

Everything about the 7800 proline actually makes it less comfortable and more awkward to use for any extended period than *any* other (actual) Atari (brand) stick. The Cx 52 and Cx 40 are both far superior sticks, despite the design flaws of both.

 

At least the Prolines don't need to be taken apart and cleaned/repaired constantly. You're right, they're less comfortable than the 5200 sticks, but a comfortable stick that doesn't work is pretty pointless...

 

Actually, I think the #1 improvement Atari could have made to the Proline would have been to glue the shaft so it doesn't rotate. The rotation makes it hard for me to keep a steady grip. In fact, I should get some superglue and try this (I apparently have 5 or 6 Prolines, no idea where I got them all).

 

As for the CX-40, well, that's what the primitive animal part of my brain thinks a joystick is, so they don't bother me at all (though my forebrain prefers a Wico).

[shadow460]

The Pro Line I tightened last year is just now beginning to show signs of minor looseness.

I guess it'll last another couple years. That is, unless I take Decathlon to it, then it might break.

 

It's even survived some mini marathons of both versions of Winter Games.

[Scumdogg]

I don't insist that a joystick is inherently better than a D-pad... but they're better for me, whose gaming reflexes were developed at a young age with joysticks only (I was 17 or 18 before I ever even saw a NES-type pad). If I'd grown up with the NES, I'd probably be playing Atari with a Genny pad or the Euro pad...

 

 

I started on the 2600, which my parents had before i was born. I only had a few years to get used to it before the NES hit and the D-Pad took over, but i still prefer joysticks for certain games. The Genesis pad is used basically because i draw all the time, and the combination of drawing + atari joysticks = horrible hand cramps.

 

Can someone point me in the direction of good instructions for modding the NES and/or Genesis pads to work with a 7800? I'm new to controller modding, so pictures would be incredibly helpful. Thanks.

[Urchlay]

I started on the 2600, which my parents had before i was born. I only had a few years to get used to it before the NES hit and the D-Pad took over, but i still prefer joysticks for certain games. The Genesis pad is used basically because i draw all the time, and the combination of drawing + atari joysticks = horrible hand cramps.

 

My hands are shot, too... 2600 sticks don't make them hurt any more or less than NES pads. I type all day long at work, 5 days a week, and play the bass guitar... but only for about an hour at a time, these days, unless I want to be unable to use my hands the next day. Playing the bass is a LOT worse on the hands than playing video games. I had to quit my last band because I couldn't even turn a doorknob or lift a cup of coffee with my left hand for about a week (and I'm left-handed).

 

I'd quit typing so much, except I don't know any other way to write code (and don't talk to me about voice recognition... "int space main left paren int ay arr gee cee comma space cee aitch ay arr space star star ay ary gee vee right paren space left curly enter"... my throat would be worn out before I could say even a "Hello world" program).

 

Can someone point me in the direction of good instructions for modding the NES and/or Genesis pads to work with a 7800? I'm new to controller modding, so pictures would be incredibly helpful. Thanks.

 

A couple of links, right here on Atariage, in the 7800 FAQ: http://www.atariage.com/7800/faq/index.htm...ID=7800#cat2_12

 

Unfortunately, neither page has pictures (one's missing the schematic entirely, and the other's drawn in ASCII art, which is useless if you can't read a schematic).

 

To be honest, if I were going to do this, I'd keep it simple: instead of an adaptor with a chip on it, I'd rewire the pad internally (basically just duplicate the resistor network in a Proline controller)... but then it wouldn't work on a Genesis any more.

 

Maybe Saturday can be controller modding day for me, instead of apartment-cleaning day.

[shadow460]

That's odd. Neither the Pro Line stick or my electric bass hurt my hands at all. I type quite a bit, too, but usually at home, and I also have several joysticks larger than the CX-40 (we're talking joysticks that are built into a base bigger than RSI).

Maybe it's just me. There are times when if I turn wrenches all day, I'll come home with some wrist pain, though.