New SpartaDOS

[Shawn Jefferson]

I was just on the ABBUC site and I saw this:

 

http://trub.atari8.info/index.php3?strona=...upgrade_en.html

 

Cool! Someone is updating and bugfixing SpartaDOS X. I've been away, and haven't seen the news.

[dinosaur]

I was just on the ABBUC site and I saw this:

 

http://trub.atari8.info/index.php3?strona=...upgrade_en.html

 

Cool! Someone is updating and bugfixing SpartaDOS X. I've been away, and haven't seen the news.

 

Yeah,great work,but I can'y afford a SpartaDosX cartridge! (retired)

[Almost Rice]

Is it going to be made by Steve Carden? I heard he was working on it.

 

BTW, I could not open the link.

Edited October 28, 2006 by Almost Rice

[Shawn Jefferson]

Is it going to be made by Steve Carden? I heard he was working on it.

 

BTW, I could not open the link.

 

Link works for me. I don't think Steve carden has anything to do with this project. They have images for the Maxflash 1mb and 8mb flash carts, so if you had one of those you could run it.

 

What I found interesting is that they have added utilities to the CAR: drive, as well as updated quite a few of the utils and drivers. I haven't had a chance to try it out on my flashcart yet though...

[drac030]

BTW, I could not open the link.

 

Does this problem persist? Or, anyone else has a problem accessing the site?

[Goochman]

Steve Carden is working on Real Dos - a new Dos that supposed to be light years ahead of anything currently available on the 8bit.

 

A year or so ago there was a very public msg campaign between Steve and Lance at Video 61 over who owns what rights to SpartaDos. I doubt Steve is doing much on anything Sparta related since Real Dos appears to be the future.

[drac030]

SpartaDOS X is, using your wording, light years ahead of any other existing DOS for 8-bit, including disk-based SpartaDOS versions. So if the Real DOS will get years ahead of Sparta X, I'll be very impressed.

 

But from what I heard so far, the Real DOS is supposed to be just a renamed and modernized version of SpartaDOS 3.3.

Edited November 1, 2006 by drac030

[Almost Rice]

BTW, I could not open the link.

 

Does this problem persist? Or, anyone else has a problem accessing the site?

 

 

I got the site to open in IE but not Firefox.

[dinosaur]

Steve Carden is working on Real Dos - a new Dos that supposed to be light years ahead of anything currently available on the 8bit.

 

A year or so ago there was a very public msg campaign between Steve and Lance at Video 61 over who owns what rights to SpartaDos. I doubt Steve is doing much on anything Sparta related since Real Dos appears to be the future.

 

I want to buy a SpartaDos 3.3a cartridge from Lance,but was turned off buy the "boot and snatch" malarky. I just don't see booting the computer and pulling the cartridge out of it while it is running.

Edited November 1, 2006 by dinosaur

[Goochman]

SpartaDOS X is, using your wording, light years ahead of any other existing DOS for 8-bit, including disk-based SpartaDOS versions. So if the Real DOS will get years ahead of Sparta X, I'll be very impressed.

 

But from what I heard so far, the Real DOS is supposed to be just a renamed and modernized version of SpartaDOS 3.3.

 

Only Steve can answer any questions on such - whatever he is doing is not based upon anything that Lance claims ownership to is the best I understood from the 'conversations' that went on in public last year.

[jaybird3rd]

But from what I heard so far, the Real DOS is supposed to be just a renamed and modernized version of SpartaDOS 3.3.

No, I've talked to Steve about it a couple of times. RealDOS is a superset of SpartaDOS X, including everything that it had plus a whole lot more.

 

As Steve has mentioned, anyone who preordered a new MIO from MEtalGuy66 got (or is getting) a copy of RealDOS. I (still) haven't had as much time to explore it as I'd like, but I've used all its major features and it's a VERY impressive operating system, clearly the best and most advanced ever made for the A8 series.

 

I can only assume that the people working on this "new SpartaDOS X" are unaware of RealDOS, because in light of what RealDOS can do, tinkering with the old SpartaDOS X seems pretty pointless. RealDOS effectively makes all versions of SpartaDOS obsolete.

Edited November 1, 2006 by jaybird3rd

[drac030]

I can only assume that the people working on this "new SpartaDOS X" are unaware of RealDOS,

 

Most probably, because it is rather difficult to be aware of something, that is not available. Any site with Real DOS download? A demo version, perhaps? A documentation, at least?

 

because in light of what RealDOS can do

 

So what it can do, please?

Edited November 1, 2006 by drac030

[ijor]

I don't know if RealDOS is better or have more features than SDX, it might. But it is hard to beat the convenience of a cartridge.

 

Now, an interesting idea might be to put RealDOS in the new MIO somehow.

[drac030]

Yes, MIO being a PBI device could supply (or "boot") an embedded DOS via the TYPE-3-POLL protocol. This is what Atari implemented it for, I believe.

[cas]

I got an Beta of RealDOS last year. Without documentation it looked and feeled like a upgraded version of SpartaDOS 3.x. I have used it for all my programming work disks for the last year for the USB and volksForth development, to do real stress beta testing, and I haven't found a bug so far.

 

I think RealDOS as being Disk based and SpartaDOS X as being Cartridge based have both their unique features, and I wouldn't like to miss either of them.

 

So I hope both, the DLT ltd. people and Steve Carden, will continue their excellent work, maybe do some communication to not re-invent the wheel and share some common code and prevent fragmentation (different but incompatible solution for the same problem).

[drac030]

So I hope both, the DLT ltd. people and Steve Carden, will continue their excellent work, maybe do some communication to not re-invent the wheel and share some common code and prevent fragmentation (different but incompatible solution for the same problem).

 

Well, SpartaDOS API and filesystem have been documented by ICD long time ago. DLT documented their changes they made to the official ICD's API and the filesystem, and this documentation is made public, as it can be easily seen on the project page. At the other hand, the Real DOS is kept in secret so strictly, that most Atari users, I suppose, didn't even heard of, not to speak about being able to find any documentation, even in a form of a rough "what's new" list. So you see...

[dinosaur]

Well, SpartaDOS API and filesystem have been documented by ICD long time ago. DLT documented their changes they made to the official ICD's API and the filesystem, and this documentation is made public, as it can be easily seen on the project page. At the other hand, the Real DOS is kept in secret so strictly, that most Atari users, I suppose, didn't even heard of, not to speak about being able to find any documentation, even in a form of a rough "what's new" list. So you see...

 

I did not think that there was any mystery about REAL-DOS.

 

AFAIK,I downloaded it from Steve's BBS REAL_dos_ver2.4.zip

 

Although.I have not gotten it to run on any emulator that I use.

 

Obviously,not enough grey cells!

Edited November 2, 2006 by dinosaur

[classics]

AFAIK,I downloaded it from Steve's BBS REAL_dos_ver2.4.zip

 

Although.I have not gotten it to run on any emulator that I use.

 

I just tried to boot this image in Atari800WinPlus 3.1 and it came up ok with the disk patch disabled.

 

Steve

[drac030]

Yes, it boots without difficulties. So, where are these features "light years ahead of" SpartaDOS X? Is this that it detects PAL? Or standard XL OS as "Unknown OS"?

 

Where is the "superset of" SpartaDOS X? Where does it conceal environment variables? Or path searching, at least? Can you run Turbo BASIC XL on this? How? And so on.

 

Sorry, but having a couple of command processor aliases, so that you can type CD instead of CWD, does not make Real DOS a superset of SpartaDOS X.

[Almost Rice]

Where is the "superset of" SpartaDOS X? Where does it conceal environment variables? Or path searching, at least? Can you run Turbo BASIC XL on this? How? And so on.

 

Did you notice that it loads a TDLINE that automaticly loads the time from the SIO2PC connnection?

[drac030]

No, I did not. Probably because I don't use Windows. Anything else?

 

Seriously, I am interested what does it can do as a DOS - so, please, something about filesystem limits (max. number of drives, max. drive capacity, max,. file length, max. number of entries per directory, max. number of files it is able to keep open at a time etc.), and services it is able to provide for user programs. And questions above - I think if it is about to be a "superset of SpartaDOS X", these should be easy to answer.

[jaybird3rd]

No, I did not. Probably because I don't use Windows. Anything else?

 

Seriously, I am interested what does it can do as a DOS - so, please, something about filesystem limits (max. number of drives, max. drive capacity, max,. file length, max. number of entries per directory, max. number of files it is able to keep open at a time etc.), and services it is able to provide for user programs. And questions above - I think if it is about to be a "superset of SpartaDOS X", these should be easy to answer.

If you're really interested in getting that kind of detailed technical information, why not just write Steve and ask him about it? He is a member of the message boards, after all, and he does have an e-mail address.

 

I'm a little hesitant to talk about all of the RealDOS utilities I've been toying with because Steve indicated that some of them may or may not be in the final version. I do like the new RAM disk handler, which automatically detects and uses all of the extended memory in the system (I've tested it with a couple different stock RAM configurations and some of the Peterson/Wooley upgrades, but according to Steve it should work with all of the popular RAM upgrades). Another nice feature is the ability to mount/unmount/create/copy/etc ATR images on the fly. You can also dynamically change drive number assignments (for example, create a RAM disk on D9, change it to D2 later for use with legacy disk utilities, and change it back to D9 later). There are also utilities for backing up hard drive partitions to a file (in much the same way that Norton Ghost does on the PC), and it's capable of interacting with APE in some interesting ways (including pulling the date/time from the APE interface, as has been pointed out). It's also got a complete set of utilities for managing the R-Time interface, which I will assume SpartaDOS X also had; I've tested these successfully with the Sunmark version of the R-Time cart. RealDOS supports the MIO and MyIDE interfaces, and I think Steve is also working on some RealDOS images for Atarimax's multicarts, which will give you the same cartridge-based operation of SpartaDOS X (granted, there's no pass-through connector on the multicarts, but if you have an ICD EXTNDR board you don't really need it.

 

As for the maximum partition/file size and other specs you mentioned ... I don't have my MIO yet and haven't had the ability to test RealDOS's hard drive support or to push the filesystem to its limits, but from my conversations with Steve, I'm certain it's capable of at least the same level of support and functionality that SpartaDOS X provided. I can only speak about the features I've had the opportunity to test, and I've only used a small portion of them. RealDOS has been a solo effort that Steve has worked on himself over a period of years, so a lot of it hasn't been fully documented yet, but that's something else he was working on the last time I talked to him about it (the only documentation I have is for SpartaDOS, but not all of it is directly applicable to RealDOS). According to Steve, RealDOS is going to be a product that obsoletes any version of SpartaDOS, and since he developed both SpartaDOS X and RealDOS, I'm sure he's in a position to know. Again, if you're interested in learning more, the best thing to do is to ask Steve directly.

Edited November 3, 2006 by jaybird3rd

[cas]

No, I did not. Probably because I don't use Windows. Anything else?

 

Seriously, I am interested what does it can do as a DOS - so, please, something about filesystem limits (max. number of drives, max. drive capacity, max,. file length, max. number of entries per directory, max. number of files it is able to keep open at a time etc.), and services it is able to provide for user programs. And questions above - I think if it is about to be a "superset of SpartaDOS X", these should be easy to answer.

 

As I wrote above, I think RealDOS and SpartaDOS X are two different things, and you cannot really compare them both (Apple and Oranges). RealDOS of being "superset of SpartaDOS X" is a little far fetched, as SpartaDOS X is far more than just a "SpartaDOS in Cartridge".

 

Both are valid, both are needed (by me at least), both have their uses.

 

Another nice feature is the ability to mount/unmount/create/copy/etc ATR images on the fly.

 

I would really see these additions documented and available for testing for other developers. We have build the same functions in the new SIO2USB Device, but probably with other SIO commands than RealDOS is using, so the SIO2USB tools are nnow incompatible with the RealDOS additions. We have reverse engineered the APE date/time feature for SIO2USB, but I it would be easier if these new additions are just documented somewhere.

 

The SpartaDOS X team is doing a great job in documenting their additions.

 

Best regards

 

Carsten

[drac030]

If you're really interested in getting that kind of detailed technical information, why not just write Steve and ask him about it? He is a member of the message boards, after all, and he does have an e-mail address.

 

I asked you, because it seemed to me from your post, that you are pretty sure about the matter you're talking about. Telling in public somehow contemptuously, that (your own words) "RealDOS is a superset of SpartaDOS X, including everything that it had plus a whole lot more" and "I can only assume that the people working on this "new SpartaDOS X" are unaware of RealDOS, because in light of what RealDOS can do, tinkering with the old SpartaDOS X seems pretty pointless. RealDOS effectively makes all versions of SpartaDOS obsolete." implies, that you know what you are talking about - i.e. you used SpartaDOS X for some time, then saw Real DOS and made the statement expressed above.

 

But now it seems to me, that it was not the case, stating that what you stated you didn't even seem to realize, that, as cas said, "SpartaDOS X is far more than just a SpartaDOS on Cartridge". I will go further with this: SpartaDOS X is not SpartaDOS at all. Internally it has nothing in common with the disk-based SpartaDOS 3.2 or 3.3. It is in fact a completely different DOS, written anew, just backwards compatible with SpartaDOS 3.2 and bearing the same name. Sparta X _is_ "light years ahead" of any DOS ever developed for Atari, I was always pretty sure about it, and now, when I saw Real DOS, I am much more sure about it than I ever was. In other words, from your advertisment, I expected that Real DOS is a newer version of SpartaDOS X - and not a newer version of "ordinary" (disk-based) SpartaDOS, if you know what I mean.

 

Sparta X it the only DOS for Atari, which has relocatable and linkable binaries, memory management, own CIO able to keep open up to 16 files at a time, mini-buffered read/write operations (this makes operations like get/put byte really fast - COMP.COM included in 4.4 cart takes advantage of this), path searching (not only in command processor, it is available to external programs via ordinary CIO), environment variables (global only, but again - all other DOSes for Atari have none), a mechanism of filesystem data translation (via filesystem drivers), ... and much more (--> the docs). Everything this is configurable. SpartaDOS 3.3, even if it is more advanced than f.e. MyDOS, is really not very impressive, when compared to the SpartaDOS X. And note, that I haven't said yet a word about "utilities".

 

Another nice feature is the ability to mount/unmount/create/copy/etc ATR images on the fly.

 

This is perhaps the only interesting thing of all others you mentioned - I admit that SpartaDOS X cannot "mount" a file residing on its local filesystem and use the file as a disk.

 

RealDOS supports the MIO and MyIDE interfaces

 

There's nothing to support, I am afraid - MIO has always been "supported" by SpartaDOS (remember that MIO is an ICD product, so is SpartaDOS) because it is an ordinary PBI device using the well defined PBI interface. To support MyIDE, it is enough to redirect the SIO calls to OS ROM (which handles it properly). It can be said, that SpartaDOS X "supported" MyIDE even before MyIDE even existed, i.e. since the 4.22 version was released.

 

, and I think Steve is also working on some RealDOS images for Atarimax's multicarts, which will give you the same cartridge-based operation of SpartaDOS X

 

See above - putting a SpartaDOS 3.3 into a cartridge does not make it to be a SpartaDOS X.

 

As for the maximum partition/file size and other specs you mentioned ... I don't have my MIO yet and haven't had the ability to test RealDOS's hard drive support or to push the filesystem to its limits, but from my conversations with Steve, I'm certain it's capable of at least the same level of support and functionality that SpartaDOS X provided.

 

So it is behind the 4.39 version now. You seem to make statements without even taking a look at the project page: despite the larger PDF file, there's a short (7,5 kilobyte) file "whatsnew.txt" briefly describing the new features introduced in 4.39 relative to 4.20. Did you read it, before posting? I guess you didn't.

 

According to Steve, RealDOS is going to be a product that obsoletes any version of SpartaDOS, and since he developed both SpartaDOS X and RealDOS, I'm sure he's in a position to know.

 

After taking a look at Real DOS, I doubt if its author "developed SpartaDOS X". I take it as a typo from your side. As far as I remember, by the way, Steve Carden never said/wrote such a thing in public. The discussions about rights made some time ago were all about SpartaDOS 3.3, which has - as I said above - very little, if anything, in common with the SpartaDOS X (the "very little" being the same - now almost the same - filesystem format). This is a distinction that, as I see here, some people still fail to do.

Edited November 3, 2006 by drac030

[Goochman]

Folks - lets not get to worked up over these new DOS's...........

 

I do not know ANYTHING about SpartaDos X - I was the one who used the 'light years ahead' comment. So, it appears X is a huge improvement over 3.x as is Real Dos.

 

There is 0 reason to debate X vs Real Dos and who is better - that was not the intent of my msg above.