New SpartaDOS

[drac030]

This is not a debate what is better. Some statements needed correction, that's all

[MEtalGuy66]

This is not a debate what is better. Some statements needed correction, that's all

 

DRAC030, A GREAT MANY of YOUR statements need correction.. In fact they are just plain wrong..

 

1st) MyIDE does not work with ICD Spartados X. If you don't believe me, ask Sijmen Shouten, Steve Tucker, or any MyIDE owner. The only version of Spartados that works with MyIDE is Spartados 3.3A pro.

 

2nd) Your posts indicate that you know little of the actual makeup of REALDOS. I'd much rather enlighten than criticize here, so here are some facts: REALDOS is NOT built out of any existing disk-based spartados version. In fact it would be relatively EASY to make a 'REALDOS-X" cartridge. The DOS kernel, itself is built of 100% reloactable, modular assembler and represents YEARS of a man's life in work. Many of the utilitity programs included with it are rewritten versions of the original sparta toolkit Apps, but there are twice as many that aren't. The additional features of many of the apps demanded that they be recoded from scratch in order to efficiently achieve the level of functionality that Steve wanted. And of the ones that did have some origin in original Sparta code, Steve either wrote the original ICD/FTE version, or was involved close enough in the development of it, to have the original source. The concept for REALDOS is to unify all ATARI expansion hardware standards under a single OS with the highest level of OS functionality possible. When any coder chooses which hardware standards he is going to support, he has to look at the hardware istelf, and decide which standards are WORTH supporting, and which are not. REALDOS, in its current state supports 100% of hardware that conforms to ATARI endorsed expansion standards for compatabilty(The PBI device specification is one example of this), or transparent operation therewith. MyIDE, unfortunately, does not fall into this category for various reasons. Given the size of the MyIDE user base, It is STEVE's wish to support it. He does not however wish to sacrifice compatability with other hardware that more closely (or correctly) conforms to ATARI expansion standards. Steve is in the process of discussing these issues with Sijmen Shouten, in hopes that they can be resolved through updates to MyIDE's "OS-PATCH" code in the next release. This may in effect bring MyIDE into compatability with many other OS versions such as the "standard" disk based versions of Sparta, and SPartaDos X as well. Also, REALDOS is an evolving product which is still in early BETA release form. The fact that it is built of 100% relocatable and modular code makes it very flexible. I speak with Steve on an almost Daily basis, and if you had any idea the direction that Steve is actually "aiming" with REALDOS, I think your oppinions would be quite diffferent.

 

Now.. Heres MY Oppinion of the new Spartados X.. First, SPartdos X has alwayse been a great product. And I totally agree with you on all the points you made concerning it. Here is what I see about the new version. Many of the hardware standards that it claims to support, It is hard for me to see, from a hardware or coding standpoint, how many of these hardware standards could be fully supported with SIMULTANEOUS compatability with other existing standards. This could be a simple matter of modularity of code, and autodetecting or CHOOSING which modules to load. It is my hope that this is ideed the case. With that said, I'm glad that someone is updating/advancing this product, and I hope they are able to produce the best possible final release version.

Edited November 3, 2006 by MEtalGuy66

[ijor]

In fact it would be relatively EASY to make a 'REALDOS-X" cartridge.

 

Again, and considering the fact that both you and Steve are working together in the MIO: Why not to make a RealDOS version on the MIO? You could achieve all the benefits that an X (cartridge based) version has.

 

Now please, I add my vote to not make a war over RealDos vs. new Sparta-X. Both are very welcome developments.

[jaybird3rd]

Again, and considering the fact that both you and Steve are working together in the MIO: Why not to make a RealDOS version on the MIO? You could achieve all the benefits that an X (cartridge based) version has.

How do you mean "RealDOS on the MIO"? If you mean making it so it can boot off of a hard drive that is installed in the MIO ... well, it can already do that.

[drac030]

DRAC030, A GREAT MANY of YOUR statements need correction.. In fact they are just plain wrong..

 

Oh.

 

1st) MyIDE does not work with ICD Spartados X. If you don't believe me, ask Sijmen Shouten, Steve Tucker, or any MyIDE owner. The only version of Spartados that works with MyIDE is Spartados 3.3A pro.

 

Maybe there are MyIDE configs which don't work, but if one has MyIDE ROM, i.e. the XL OS patched so that the SIOV $E459 can access MyIDE, then it should work with SpartaDOS X. Just please pay attention to the fact, that I mentioned the SpartaDOS X 4.22 as the one that "supports" MyIDE, and not any earlier revision (incl. the most popular 4.20). Why? Because it is 4.22 which has an alternative SIO driver, that redirects SpartaDOS SIO calls to ROM. So - this MUST work with MyIDE, if MyDOS works or any other DOS calling the ROM to do sector I/O.

 

Of course, one has to write own CONFIG.SYS, and put to the boot disk. Of course, the DOS must be configured to use banked memory. But it has to work anyways.

 

REALDOS is NOT built out of any existing disk-based spartados version.

 

Let's say.

 

In fact it would be relatively EASY to make a 'REALDOS-X" cartridge.

 

I don't think so. It seems rather easy to demonstrate here. The Real DOS occupies the RAM under the OS ROM. Please tell me (I don't know because there are no docs), how do I tell the Real DOS, that it should load its main code to the bank select RAM instead? To make this a simple and realistic example: how do you run Turbo BASIC XL on Real DOS?

 

That was already said several times: putting SpartaDOS 3.2 onto a cartridge does not make it SpartaDOS X (or, putting a cow into a stable does not make it to be a horse). Of course, you can put Real DOS onto cartridge and name it whatever you want (let it be "X"), but sorry, this won't make it an equivalent to the SpartaDOS X.

 

The DOS kernel, itself is built of 100% reloactable, modular assembler

 

I don't doubt that xasm is relocatable But the DOS kernel itself isn't - and please prove me wrong.

 

I think that you might have misunderstood something that I wrote above about Sparta X having relocatable binaries. I didn't mean by that, that it is compiled using a relocatable assembler, but, obviously, that the DOS itself is able to deal with (load and execute) relocatable binaries.

 

And no, I don't mean an ordinary binary with a relocator attached, nopes, such binaries do not need support at the DOS side. Just please extract a COM file (CHVOL.COM, for example) out of the SpartaDOS X cartridge, put it onto a Real DOS (or any other DOS, for that matter) disk, boot it and try to execute the file. What you will see? Most probably: "Not binary file" - because only SpartaDOS X has this type of relocatable, linkable and modular binaries.

 

So you still think that if Real DOS (or anything else, incl. SpartaDOS 3.2) is put into a cartridge, it will at the same time magically start to support this (and suposedly not only this, but all other features of the SDX, which the rest of the DOS-es lacks)? I am not here to advertise one DOS or another, but please - please, please - make your statements a bit more realistic

 

I speak with Steve on an almost Daily basis, and if you had any idea the direction that Steve is actually "aiming" with REALDOS, I think your oppinions would be quite diffferent.

 

It might be, but currently I am judging from what I see - and what I see is Real DOS 2.4 attached to this thread, which, like Carsten said, looks and feels like an upgraded version of SpartaDOS 3.3. At the other hand I keep hearing peans about the Real DOS as above (already famous "light years" etc.), so we are perhaps talking about two different versions of Real DOS, eh?

 

It is of course very good, that it supports odd hardware (like MyIDE), but still, statements made in this thread seem _a_bit_ too far fetched, and sometimes even irrelevant; the code "represents YEARS of a man's life in work"? So what? Do you know any DOS which wasn't time consuming to write, or wasn't written with great effort of the programmer(s), especially if it is a _complex_ DOS?

 

Besides, I'd like to point out, that the thing I tend to criticize here is not the Real DOS, but - since this thread is about SpartaDOS - some (let's say) not-very-well-thought-of statements about the DOS in question. How the Real DOS has been involved in this discuss, it can be seen some posts above, but this is by no means my fault.

 

This is going nowhere anyways, and so maybe we return to the main topic.

 

Many of the hardware standards that it claims to support, It is hard for me to see, from a hardware or coding standpoint, how many of these hardware standards could be fully supported with SIMULTANEOUS compatability with other existing standards.

 

Examples?

 

This could be a simple matter of modularity of code, and autodetecting or CHOOSING which modules to load.

 

Please clarify this, what kind of "autodetecting or choosing" you mean, which would not be already there.

Edited November 3, 2006 by drac030

[+Guitarman]

In fact it would be relatively EASY to make a 'REALDOS-X" cartridge.

 

Again, and considering the fact that both you and Steve are working together in the MIO: Why not to make a RealDOS version on the MIO? You could achieve all the benefits that an X (cartridge based) version has.

 

Now please, I add my vote to not make a war over RealDos vs. new Sparta-X. Both are very welcome developments.

 

 

The only issue I would see about making a RealDOS ROM based OS in the MIO is that to would probably require a reworking of the existing circuitry. The MIO was always able to make the internal ramdisk the bootable drive with any DOS you choose. I wouldn't be opposed to a cart version of RealDOS if available!!

 

As far as RealDOS vs SpartaDOS X....more choice means more support for the Atari....I'm am fully down with that!! I have use SpartaDOS 3.2, 3.3 and X for many years. It has always been my favorite DOS to use and I have most of the ICD products that it supported, i.e. X cart, R-Time-8, PR:Ccnnection, etc, but, by all means, it has not been the only DOS I use. There are certain things that are better suited to different DOS's and I'm sure most will agree. I, myself, am looking forward to both RealDOS, in what ever form it is released, and a new version of SpartaDOS X. I will be happily using both.

[ijor]

How do you mean "RealDOS on the MIO"? If you mean making it so it can boot off of a hard drive that is installed in the MIO ... well, it can already do that.

 

Not in a hard disk, not in a Ramdisk, but in banked ROM. And not just in ROM, but run it directly from ROM leaving only small code in RAM. As SDX does.

[jaybird3rd]

Not in a hard disk, not in a Ramdisk, but in banked ROM. And not just in ROM, but run it directly from ROM leaving only small code in RAM. As SDX does.

Ah, now I understand. I think that would require more extensive modifications to the old MIO design than MEtalGuy66 was planning on making with this first new production run. Besides, as he pointed out, RealDOS is still a work in progress (albeit an impressive one), and holding onto the MIO boards until Steve decides the final release is ready could leave the preorderers like myself waiting for a VERY long time.

 

I agree that a ROM-based DOS would be a wonderful thing, and perhaps that's something that can be done as part of a larger update/overhaul of the original MIO design (which would also be a wonderful thing).

[MEtalGuy66]

Yeah Im not adding any ROM based DOS to the MIO.. You can easily boot from the MIO ramdisk which only occupies 256 bytes of adress space on the atari. Or put it on a hardisk. But a REALDOS cart is not at all out of the question, and Steve has often talked about it. And I'll let Steve argue the technicalities of what his existing code can or cannot be done with as far as this goes, because he is the only one who has a complete copy of it. The BETA release is just that. A BETA release made to boot from disk.

[DamageX]

Are these 128KB carts readily available? How does the bank switching mechanism work (that is, how much logic is needed to build my own cart) ?

[drac030]

Are these 128KB carts readily available? How does the bank switching mechanism work (that is, how much logic is needed to build my own cart) ?

 

As far as I know, there will be no assembled carts to purchase - unless some third party wants to do it. Also, as far as I know, the original ICD cartridge can't be easily converted to 128k, but I can be wrong about it. Apart of the Maxflash carts, there are builds available for:

 

1) Atrax cartridge - I doubt if any of them is owned by anyone outside Poland

 

2) intSDX128

 

There will be soon an additional build available for Turbo Freezer 2005 (as soon as it will be proved that it works correctly).

 

If you want to build own cartridge, the "intSDX128flash" option will be the best one. There is a problem, though: the intSDX128 is a mod to an earlier extension called intSDX (which stands for "Internal SpartaDOS X"). Schematics and description for both are available, but everything is written in Polish. So if you're interested in building own intSDX128, you may consider writing a mail to the project page maintainer (the e-mail is here: http://trub.atari8.info/index.php3?strona=...Fkontakty.html )- I am sure that this will encourage him to prepare English versions of both documents more quickly.

 

BTW., if anyone has technical questions about the SDX 128k, bug reports or something like that, I encourage to post it to the corresponding thread at the AtariArea forum, i.e. here: http://atariarea.krap.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?id=4489. This way you may get replies much quicker.

 

As for the question about the bank switching, I think it is answered there (in English), but I can't tell, if the information is sufficient to build a 128k SDX cart from scratch. Probably it is not.

Edited November 4, 2006 by drac030

[Shawn Jefferson]

Another nice feature is the ability to mount/unmount/create/copy/etc ATR images on the fly.

 

I would really see these additions documented and available for testing for other developers. We have build the same functions in the new SIO2USB Device, but probably with other SIO commands than RealDOS is using, so the SIO2USB tools are nnow incompatible with the RealDOS additions. We have reverse engineered the APE date/time feature for SIO2USB, but I it would be easier if these new additions are just documented somewhere.

 

I'd email Steve (classics) at AtariMax about the APE commands. He helped me implement quite a few of the same features in the MyIDE tools I've created. There are SIO commands to get the longfile name of the loaded ATR, load/unload and create ATRs as well. These were in version 2.3.6, which I noticed hasn't been posted to his website yet, so I couldn't comment on the status of those, or whether they are finalized or not.

 

The SpartaDOS X team is doing a great job in documenting their additions.

 

I agree, I checked out the new SpartaDOS X and it looks great! I had some trouble getting it to work with my 8mb flashcart, and also had some trouble with the 1mb flashcart and certain OSes, but that is probably more to do with my system being flakey than anything else. It looks like the folks on the SpartaDOS X team are doing a great job, and if you have a PBI hard drive interface, this DOS is going to really kick some butt.

[Shawn Jefferson]

There's nothing to support, I am afraid - MIO has always been "supported" by SpartaDOS (remember that MIO is an ICD product, so is SpartaDOS) because it is an ordinary PBI device using the well defined PBI interface. To support MyIDE, it is enough to redirect the SIO calls to OS ROM (which handles it properly). It can be said, that SpartaDOS X "supported" MyIDE even before MyIDE even existed, i.e. since the 4.22 version was released.

 

I tried to get MyIDE and SpartaDOS X 4.39 to work together and failed miserably. I'd love to know what the steps required to do this are. Probably, the fact that I'm trying to use an external interface in the form of a MyIDE+1Mb Flash is the main reason. Gonna have to build that internal version I guess.

[drac030]

There's nothing to support, I am afraid - MIO has always been "supported" by SpartaDOS (remember that MIO is an ICD product, so is SpartaDOS) because it is an ordinary PBI device using the well defined PBI interface. To support MyIDE, it is enough to redirect the SIO calls to OS ROM (which handles it properly). It can be said, that SpartaDOS X "supported" MyIDE even before MyIDE even existed, i.e. since the 4.22 version was released.

 

I tried to get MyIDE and SpartaDOS X 4.39 to work together and failed miserably. I'd love to know what the steps required to do this are. Probably, the fact that I'm trying to use an external interface in the form of a MyIDE+1Mb Flash is the main reason. Gonna have to build that internal version I guess.

 

A disk storage to work with the SpartaDOS X 4.39 must be either (recommended) a proper PBI device or, in case when it is not, it should respond via the OS SIOV interface ($E459). Writing about MyIDE being "supported" I of course only meant these installations with the OS patched to handle the MyIDE interface internally.

 

I know that there are cartridge versions of the MyIDE, but they're not supported. First of all, they probably conflict at the hardware level (control registers) with the SDX cartridge. When they don't conflict (I don't know this for sure because MyIDE is rather exotic here), it is also possible that SpartaDOS X prevents its initialization while initializing itself.

 

With MyIDE-ROM you should be able to get it to work, but you have to make your own CONFIG.SYS file and save it to the main directory of the boot disk (D1:, most probably). The file's initial lines should look like this:

 

USE BANKED
DEVICE SPARTA
DEVICE SIO2

 

Then the SIO2.SYS driver will be loaded instead of the default SIO.SYS. The SIO2.SYS is a stub driver that passes all requests to the SIOV $E459 OS call - and so MyIDE should work. You may of course add more devices to your CONFIG.SYS, just these three lines are obligatory at the beginning. The computer has to have at least 128k of RAM for this to work, btw.

 

Two remarks:

 

1) it is recommended (or even sort of required) that the disk supports PERCOM commands, at least the READ PERCOM ("N") should work and return reliable information. If this command fails, the DOS should be able to determine the density correctly anyways, but this situation was not tested (all available devices support PERCOM). This is unlikely to confuse the filesystem driver, but on READ PERCOM failure the SDX disk formatter will certainly think that the disk is an unmodified 1050. I am writing this, because I hear that MyIDE doesn't know PERCOM.

 

2) there are _hardware_ conflicts between Atarimax Flashcarts and the ICD R-Time-8, caused by the fact, that the Flashcarts react on reads/writes done to the D1 page outside their register range. This is a problem for everyone (and not only these people who own R-Time-8 cartridges), because the SpartaDOS X tries to load the R-Time-8 driver at startup; in case of the 8 Mbit flashcart this results in an instant crash. Unfortunately, nobody was aware of this problem until recent time. The solution is to compose own CONFIG.SYS file, which wouldn't load the CLOCK.SYS (the R-Time-8 driver, that is).

 

I hope that this problem will get worked around in next RC release, by removing the DEVICE CLOCK line from the default CONFIG.SYS in Flashcart versions.

Edited December 21, 2006 by drac030

[Shawn Jefferson]

I know that there are cartridge versions of the MyIDE, but they're not supported. First of all, they probably conflict at the hardware level (control registers) with the SDX cartridge. When they don't conflict (I don't know this for sure because MyIDE is rather exotic here), it is also possible that SpartaDOS X prevents its initialization while initializing itself.

 

The cartridge version of MyIDE's registers are at $D5xx and the internal version has registers at $D1xx. I'm assuming the $D5xx registers would conflict.

 

With MyIDE-ROM you should be able to get it to work, but you have to make your own CONFIG.SYS file and save it to the main directory of the boot disk (D1:, most probably). The file's initial lines should look like this:

 

USE BANKED
DEVICE SPARTA
DEVICE SIO2

 

I tried something similiar to this, but for some reason, it just would not use my extra memory (standard XL 256k upgrade) and kept using ram under the OS. I'll try again and see where I can get!

 

1) it is recommended (or even sort of required) that the disk supports PERCOM commands, at least the READ PERCOM ("N") should work and return reliable information. If this command fails, the DOS should be able to determine the density correctly anyways, but this situation was not tested (all available devices support PERCOM). This is unlikely to confuse the filesystem driver, but on READ PERCOM failure the SDX disk formatter will certainly think that the disk is an unmodified 1050. I am writing this, because I hear that MyIDE doesn't know PERCOM.

 

Yes, this is an issue from what I know too. MyIDE doesn't respond to the percom commands (as far as I know.)

 

2) there are _hardware_ conflicts between Atarimax Flashcarts and the ICD R-Time-8, caused by the fact, that the Flashcarts react on reads/writes done to the D1 page outside their register range. This is a problem for everyone (and not only these people who own R-Time-8 cartridges), because the SpartaDOS X tries to load the R-Time-8 driver at startup; in case of the 8 Mbit flashcart this results in an instant crash. Unfortunately, nobody was aware of this problem until recent time. The solution is to compose own CONFIG.SYS file, which wouldn't load the CLOCK.SYS (the R-Time-8 driver, that is).

 

That explains why my 8mb cart didn't work!

[classics]

there are _hardware_ conflicts between Atarimax Flashcarts and the ICD R-Time-8, caused by the fact, that the Flashcarts react on reads/writes done to the D1 page outside their register range.

 

Could you explain this in more detail?

 

Steve

[drac030]

there are _hardware_ conflicts between Atarimax Flashcarts and the ICD R-Time-8, caused by the fact, that the Flashcarts react on reads/writes done to the D1 page outside their register range.

 

Could you explain this in more detail?

 

Steve

 

First, I obviously mistyped the page number: it should read "D5", not "D1" above.

 

When the SpartaDOS X 4.39 is stored in an 8 Mbit Flashcart, and the default CONFIG.SYS file is used, the DOS loads the R-Time driver. When the driver accesses the locations at page D5, where the R-Time is supposed to live ($D5B8-$D5BF), to determine whether it is present or not, the flashcart apparently reacts. As a result, a bank switch occurs, and the DOS crashes because different bank of the cartridge is visible in the address space, than the expected one.

[drac030]

USE BANKED
DEVICE SPARTA
DEVICE SIO2

 

I tried something similiar to this, but for some reason, it just would not use my extra memory (standard XL 256k upgrade) and kept using ram under the OS. I'll try again and see where I can get!

 

Please try to determine if your CONFIG.SYS is read at all. In case of 256k the SDX should automatically load into the extra memory. When it doesn't, see what MEM /X displays, if there are any abnormalities, and tell me.

Edited December 21, 2006 by drac030

[classics]

All of the bank bits and the enable bit are latched using the same clock, so when you read/write an address in $d5XX if the $80 bit is high, the cartridge is disabled.

 

Steve

[Shawn Jefferson]

The MyIDE+1Mb Flash cart won't work either unless a special SpartaDOS X image is used, since the cartridge bank select registers are different for that cart! That explains why that didn't work for me!

 

I think (99% sure) the MyIDE+1Mb registers start at $D520 instead of $D500 like in the regular 1mb cart.

[Mathy]

Howdy folks

 

I'm not sure if the MyIDE interface still works like that, but the first version just blocked all addresses from $D500 through $D5FF.

 

The RT8 uses two addresses. It uses two instead of one because the OSS cartridges react to anything that changes the lower 4 bits in the above mentioned range. Check out a file by John K. Picken on this subject. It used to be on Jindroush site. Jindroush site is down, but you can stil find copies of that site on the net.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy

[Stephen J Carden]

On 11/3/2006 at 7:46 AM, drac030 said:

Hi Draco.

 Draco is right I have not worked on the SDX Replacement Project and I have never told anyone I have. The only thing I have done for that project was send some hardware to one of the project team. It was a basic multiplexer. Now we have support in both SDX and RealDos for the Multiplexer I wanted to have support for the multiplexer added to sdx. Support that was not part of the original 4.19, 4.20, and 4.21. I did have some input when ICD owned the SDX cart. I do not agree with SDX being included in hardware I purchase, but that hardware has included a menu to disable it giving you and me a choice to run the dos I want. So once again I can run what I want.  I published the RealDos support programs and I am sure if the SDX team used any part of it they would have published that info. I take the view that all the different dos's all have there place. I use the SDX in my 130xe that I have installed in my Tower case. I also use RealDos. I use what ever I need to to test hardware upgrades that I post on my web site. I am certain that the SDX team would help me if I needed it just as I would help them. Most of the hardware and software developers will work with each other if asked. We have a DAMN small amount of users for the Atari 8-bit. Because the Software and Hardware developers are willing to work together we have more stuff for our Atari 8-bit since 2000. Than the years that Atari corp from 1982 to 1999. Back then the company's in the USA were more likely to take the stance to get rid of there competition. The Most fun I have ever had on a project was the MegaSpeedy project and I did not do any of the hardware or Software. I was just able to test and I wrote the English Documentation, hosted it up on my web site.

    This really happened. CrazyBonz and I did a Run of AKI's from the info the original owner published on the internet. I do not know what happened but the AKI's had a bug with the Clone PC keyboards we use in the US. when you pressed a "." you would get a comma. The only info that was not published was the PIC code. The only way we could fix the problem was to do a hex edit of the PIC code. Not easy or fun. We were able to fix it and called the board we created the KRH not to get it confused with the AKI. The AKI is used in Europe and may be different than the ones we used. I also have several Transkeys from back in the 1990's. The original creator of the Transkey came back to the Atari. I was very grateful he was active. I sent him some of the new hardware I liked. He started devolving the new TKII for the xl and xe and I did some testing for him. I was very happy he asked me to do this. He like the SDX team has created really cool stuff. Well now for the point. Users who like the 8-bit give respect for the people who are creating Hardware and Software for the Atari 8-bit. They are then ones making new stuff for yours and my Hobby. The Developers are not doing it for the money. Be thankful for all the new stuff from 2000 to now. I can program so I can write anything I want. You users who do not know how to program please learn. Most of the hardware builders have been to school for it. But that does not mean you can not learn to do hardware.

 

I am Thankful for all the developers the internet has brought to us and our Atari Hobby.

Stephen J. Carden