No love for Defender

[phonedork]

The Jag version of Defender classic is my fav. The 5200/8-bit is good, but I don't like the oversize version of the ship.

 

 

Thats funny you should even complain about the size of the ship on Defender. LOL! Because Defender 2000 on the Jaguar has the biggest ship ever for not only Defender, but any side scrolling shootem up! LOL!

He specifically said Defender Classic, not Defender 2000, you trolling retard.

 

 

Look bud! You and I should meet so I can personally knock you out for being a prick!

[Room 34]

Defender's a great game, just really hard. I personally think the 5200 version is quite difficult, but then I grew up on the easy-as-anything 2600 version.

 

The biggest problem I have with the 5200 version is the way debris splays out in every direction when you blow up an alien ship, and there's no way to tell (other than by closely watching the trajectories) this debris from background stars or (the part that matters) enemy shots!

[jetset]

The Jag version of Defender classic is my fav. The 5200/8-bit is good, but I don't like the oversize version of the ship.

 

 

Thats funny you should even complain about the size of the ship on Defender. LOL! Because Defender 2000 on the Jaguar has the biggest ship ever for not only Defender, but any side scrolling shootem up! LOL!

He specifically said Defender Classic, not Defender 2000, you trolling retard.

 

 

Look bud! You and I should meet so I can personally knock you out for being a prick!

 

Bitch fight!!!

[Lord Thag]

Thats funny you should even complain about the size of the ship on Defender. LOL! Because Defender 2000 on the Jaguar has the biggest ship ever for not only Defender, but any side scrolling shootem up! LOL!

 

 

He specifically said Defender Classic, not Defender 2000, you trolling retard.

 

 

 

 

Look bud! You and I should meet so I can personally knock you out for being a prick!

 

 

 

Bitch fight!!!

 

Heh, haven't had a drive-by Zylonbane attack in awhile.

 

finally somebody comes out and tells the truth about defender. It's not even close to a good game on anything, and it seems the more they try to modernize it the worse it gets. I'm not sure why I hate it, but it just feels like there isn't any fun to be had. The view distance is too short, (or really ship too fast) and I can't make myself care about anything going on.

 

I entirely agree. Defender is not a game you can update (or even port) very well. It really does have to be played with five buttons and a joystick. Defender is really tied to it's specialized control setup. Playing Defender on some of the newer consoles is akin to playing Wii Sports with a PS2 controler. Doable, probably, but not as fun.

 

That said, I always like the 5200 version mainly because it replicates the frantic, crazy pace of the arcade, which most other ports do not do well. Even the Colecovision version seems fairly ho-hum in comparison. Now that I have the arcade cab, I really can't play it on much of anything other than the original hardware. The controls are critical, IMO.

[lemoncurry]

The handheld Entex version, meanwhile, is one of the best vintage handhelds there is.

It even has a speed control!

 

Funny this thread should resurface right after I paid for a copy of PacManPlus's new Defender Arcade for the 2600... Looking forward to giving it a whirl, after reading the long thread where he and others were tweaking it.

[+Cafeman]

I entirely agree. Defender is not a game you can update (or even port) very well. It really does have to be played with five buttons and a joystick. Defender is really tied to it's specialized control setup. Playing Defender on some of the newer consoles is akin to playing Wii Sports with a PS2 controler. Doable, probably, but not as fun.

 

That said, I always like the 5200 version mainly because it replicates the frantic, crazy pace of the arcade, which most other ports do not do well. Even the Colecovision version seems fairly ho-hum in comparison. Now that I have the arcade cab, I really can't play it on much of anything other than the original hardware. The controls are critical, IMO.

 

Agreed. I was on vacation last week and the hotel had a Defender coin-op ... I just had to give it a few tries. It has been so long, but the experience reminded me of just how challenging it is to grapple with the Reverse and many other buttons. I got to level 3 and died.

 

I used to like the 5200 version better because the simplified controls actually allowed me to enjoy the game. But nothing compares to the coin-op controls... see also the joysticks used in Gorf and Zaxxon which gave both such a classic fun arcade feel that no home controller can compare with.

[Inky]

He specifically said Defender Classic, not Defender 2000, you trolling retard.

 

 

Look bud! You and I should meet so I can personally knock you out for being a prick!

 

I see you've met ZylonBane.

[Lord Thag]

The handheld Entex version, meanwhile, is one of the best vintage handhelds there is.

It even has a speed control!

 

Belay my last. Yep. You're right, I spaced that one. I have it, and it's great! One of the best VFD games ever made. Definately worth getting. All the buttons and a speed dial make it quite fun.

[phonedork]

The Jag version of Defender classic is my fav. The 5200/8-bit is good, but I don't like the oversize version of the ship.

 

 

Thats funny you should even complain about the size of the ship on Defender. LOL! Because Defender 2000 on the Jaguar has the biggest ship ever for not only Defender, but any side scrolling shootem up! LOL!

He specifically said Defender Classic, not Defender 2000, you trolling retard.

 

 

Look bud! You and I should meet so I can personally knock you out for being a prick!

 

Bitch fight!!!

 

 

Nah... it will be me putting my size 12 in Zylo's A$$! I am no bitch!

[NE146]

I've come to realize something. It doesn't matter what platform the game is played on...Defender just plain sucks. I think the best platform I've played it on was actually the Saturn, but that's still not saying much.

 

finally somebody comes out and tells the truth about defender. It's not even close to a good game on anything, and it seems the more they try to modernize it the worse it gets. I'm not sure why I hate it, but it just feels like there isn't any fun to be had. The view distance is too short, (or really ship too fast) and I can't make myself care about anything going on.

 

but everybody else loves it... why? It took me over a decade to care enough to figure out that there was more than one level. Maybe if the ship moved a lot slower, there was more on a single screen, and the ship actually flew somewhere...

 

 

You are friggin smoking CRACK my friend. Defender is one of the purest videogame classics out there. It's unmatched in it's intensity and actual level of skill that's required for the game. That being said, it's a game where if you actually practice it, you can keep getting better the more you play and then eventually get really good at it. Learning the controls to the point where you're an expert at "Flying" the ship is what it's all about. Ever see a good player? They can move that thing like it was mercury especially during the intense free space dogfights

 

And yes we're talking about the actual game. The home ports don't count, nor do the emulated versions brought to home consoles modifed where you simply push the pad in the direction you want to fly (which actually brings about problems in the faster dogfights since it will often get "stuck" when trying to do rapid fire reversals).

 

I actually still consider the arcade game as my de-facto measurement of a persons videogame skills.. if they can get at least one extra man (10k) then they're REAL gamers through and through Granted that's kind of hard these days as there obviously isn't a Defender on every corner

 

Nonetheless.. you can't dog on Defender.. it's a REAL MAN'S GAME

[ZylonBane]

I entirely agree. Defender is not a game you can update (or even port) very well. It really does have to be played with five buttons and a joystick.

Your opinion is obviously in the overwhelming minority. I'd go so far as to say that most people played arcade Defender in spite of the awful controls. The proper four-way joystick control in the home ports is the only way I've ever actually enjoyed Defender.

 

The enduring popularity of Robotron pretty much proves that people prefer simple, direct controls, not a sea of buttons.

[Lord Thag]

Your opinion is obviously in the overwhelming minority. I'd go so far as to say that most people played arcade Defender in spite of the awful controls. The proper four-way joystick control in the home ports is the only way I've ever actually enjoyed Defender.

 

The enduring popularity of Robotron pretty much proves that people prefer simple, direct controls, not a sea of buttons.

 

Well, I don't know about being in an overwhelming minority Defender was one of the highest grossing arcade games of all time, and it was certainly William's best selling coin-op, moving over 60,000 units, so I don't think it's popularity was an accident. However, I can see how most people would prefer the standard 4-way joystick setup. Certainly, Defender is brutally hard, and the home versions make it more approachable.

 

I would be willing to admit that five buttons and a stick were too much for a lot of the gaming audiences back then though, but then, I've heard plenty of Defender fans whine about the 4-way setup on home consoles, so I suppose it's a matter of opinion. Defender was never a 'mass appeal' game, it was targeted more at what became the 'shooter' crowd these days. I used to be in your camp until I got a full size coin op, but now, I prefer the arcade controls, mainly due to the fact you can quickly reverse direction AND move up or down, which is vital in the later levels when fighting baiters and mutants. Maybe its just comes down to familiarity.

[NE146]

Say what you want about the arcade button layout... but when you got used to them they gave you awesome feeling of control and power in the game. You were in COMMAND of that ship, and you were "flying" it.

 

The amount of players in every local arcade who mastered such a supposedly difficult game is proof enough of the playability of the controls (as opposed to say PS3's Lair) and of course it's fun factor. It just takes some learning and practice... which is what videogame players today aren't used to. This is excusable since Defender was after all one of the earliest videogames around in the arcade heyday.

 

What you guys are looking for is Sinistar style control where you just point the stick and fly in that direction.. ends up being feeling like not much really.

[Rybags]

I rarely played Defender in the arcade - the controls make it intolerable.

 

The ideal setup for that game IMO is simply a digital joystick, with seperate buttons for fire, smart bomb and hyperspace.

 

In fact, with decent controls, hyperspace becomes almost superfluous anyway.

[jboypacman]

I like the Colecovision version too but i just suck at Defender always have always will i guess.

[NE146]

The ideal setup for that game IMO is simply a digital joystick, with seperate buttons for fire, smart bomb and hyperspace.

 

Well a lot of the home emulations of the arcade game do exactly that (as well as Mame for that matter). It tries to combine the thrust & L/R directional commands and basically mapping those buttons together to make the movement simple. When your pushing right or left it basically tries to make sure it toggled the reverse command in that direction and then any time your pushing left/right it's holding down the thrust command for you.

 

The problem is the original game engine doesn't work too well with that when the action gets intense. If you're trying to do some rapid left/right reversals like in a later-level free space fight as dozens of mutants are swarming around you, you'll often times find your ship stops responding and doesnt move even though you're pushing left or right for dear life. The game of course was just originally designed to have a seperate input for thrust and a seperate input for changing direction and doesn't work too well when it's combined. If you're going to actually "seriously" play Defender with any intention of being good at it, then yeah it has to be the original controls.

 

But yeah for casual light playing the Mame, home port simplification works fine of course.

[ZylonBane]

The problem is the original game engine doesn't work too well with that when the action gets intense. If you're trying to do some rapid left/right reversals like in a later-level free space fight as dozens of mutants are swarming around you, you'll often times find your ship stops responding and doesnt move even though you're pushing left or right for dear life.

 

But as you note, this is ONLY a problem when running the game in pure emulation. Ports don't have this problem.

[Lord Thag]

But as you note, this is ONLY a problem when running the game in pure emulation. Ports don't have this problem.

 

While I prefer the original controls, I don't think it's so much that it's impossible to port the game to a console (difficult yes, impossible no) so much as it is that nobody really HAS ported it right. The 5200 version is my favorite port, and I like it better than most of the newer defender ports. The xbox live one ... meh. Defender 2000 is average, and Protector is too different to be Defender, and it's not as fun either.

 

Are there any other good home ports? Those are the only ones, other than the Intelly, VCS and Coleco ports, that I've played. How does the C64 one hold up?

[[d2f]Iggy*SJB]

I'm thinking I had a few games that got into the 24-30k range in the arcade, too. I was better at Stargate, as I recall.

 

Heck, STARGATE is the one with all the buttons. It added the inviso button!

 

I've got MAME, and it still has too many damn buttons with an X-Arcade. What... left/right, smart bomb, fire and hyperspace... right? 5 buttons plus a joystick for up/down.

 

Well you really only need to use 3 for the most of the game. Thrust & Fire on the right (just like in Asteroids type games), and the reverse button.

 

Left Hand

-Up/Down Joystick

-thumb controlled Reverse Button

 

Right Hand

-Thrust

-Fire

 

 

Then of course you got the smart bomb which you just slap with your right thumb when needed. The hyperspace in the center is almost never used unless you panic.

 

You need the layout of the original.. the x-arcade just aint going to cut it. (believe me I've tried)

 

At least I know I'm not the only person who played exactly like that. ROFL!!! I've never tried X-Arcade....but without the same button configuration, it simply can't be played the same.

I was better at Stargate, myself. Mostly because Stargate was at my "home" location. You see, I basicly lived at a pool hall. I would sleep at my house, go to school, leave school and head right to the pool hall. My best friend's parents owned it. Damn shame the place burned down, but I guess if it hadn't, I wouldn't have Lunar Lander and Paddle Battle.

[ZylonBane]

While I prefer the original controls, I don't think it's so much that it's impossible to port the game to a console (difficult yes, impossible no) so much as it is that nobody really HAS ported it right.

WTF? Who said it was impossible?

 

And if by "right", you mean "with that horrible reverse/thrust control scheme", it seems fairly obvious that everyone who's ported Defender to any console ever disagrees with you.

[Lord Thag]

WTF? Who said it was impossible?

 

And if by "right", you mean "with that horrible reverse/thrust control scheme", it seems fairly obvious that everyone who's ported Defender to any console ever disagrees with you.

 

Nobody said it was impossible

 

I said that it was NOT impossible, but apparently difficult, because I have not played a home port that I think really captures the arcade perfectly, even on the newer consoles. My main complaint with them is that the difficulty level never seems to get quite as white knuckle as the arcade. The control complaints are more of an 'I'm used to the arcade' kinda thing. Admittedly, that's an opinion, just like your view that the defender control scheme sucks is an opinion. That said, I try not to jump to extremes as I realize that while I may not like some of the home ports, lots of other people do, which is why I say *I* don't care for most of them, and not that 'they suck'.

 

You may not like the controls for the arcade, but they most definately do not suck, as lots of people in this thead will attest. It's kind of a 'tastes great / less filling' kind of thing, it seems

[potatohead]

This port, to the Propeller micro controller, is just excellent!

 

http://propeller.wikispaces.com/Games

 

Watched it get done. Plays decent with gamepad, plays excellent with a button board & stick. (gotta build one of those however) Good ports can be done, it's just a matter of focus on the game first, not focus on the controls first. Plays ok with joystick.

 

Agreed on it being one of the classics. There are few gaming experiences as intense as DEFENDER is. The arcade was actually throttled down some as the 1MHZ 6809 couldn't render everything the author, Eugene Jarvis, wanted rendered.

 

It's keyed to a level where only the better people can really play. Some of us just aren't ever gonna be defender players. Many of the ports do not replicate this and much of the game intensity and spirit is lost. That game is about one thing: pushing your reflexes and thought to the max. There is no dumbing this down and having a fun game result.

 

The NES port suffers from not enough attention to the movement speeds and patterns of everything. It's too smooth and easy to play. Boring. I actually *hate* that port big.

 

The 8bit ports are not up to the full potential of the hardware, but play pretty well. Suffer from bullets killing everything in-line (major deviation from the original), not enough use of color, and coarse movement. Firing on both the up and down on the joystick button was a good idea however. All in all, that one can get intense, if coarse.

 

On the Apple, it's just ugly. Not enough speed to do the game justice.

 

It's an old-school 2D shooter title. All about the trance. The complexity surrounding the controls is all part of this. One needs to be able to execute lots of different motions with high precision. Combining functions just limits the player options. At the time it was written, it had a lot of firsts. A key one being the idea that things were going on outside the player point of view.

Edited February 24, 2008 by potatohead

[shadow460]

What an old thread, and revived in Zylonbane Style! My cart has 18 months of dust and counting. I'm not much for side shooting games anyway, save for Subterranea on the 2600.

 

Defender isn't the only game which requires skill to play. I've played a lot of games, mostly newer than Defender, that will waste the average player in seconds. Asteroids requires sharp reflexes and an itchy trigger finger, along with the ablility to predict where dozens of objects will be over the next few seconds. Raiden is the same way, but things move even faster and there's less room to move around on the screen. I'm not talking about playing through Raiden until you get a P, either--I'm talking about working through it using the pea shooter as necessary. Defender has smart bombs just like Raiden does, so that's a non issue there.

 

I'm also good at racing games, and many of the titles I play require precise movements of the wheel and pedals (and the air brakes in some cases). Granted, Defender is not a driving game, but the idea of piloting a ship isn't too different than that of riding a super bike from extreme-G or flying the anti gravity craft of wipEout.

 

Consequently, my copies of Killer Satellites and R-Type DX have been used even less than Defender.

[phonedork]

The Jag version of Defender classic is my fav. The 5200/8-bit is good, but I don't like the oversize version of the ship.

 

 

Thats funny you should even complain about the size of the ship on Defender. LOL! Because Defender 2000 on the Jaguar has the biggest ship ever for not only Defender, but any side scrolling shootem up! LOL!

He specifically said Defender Classic, not Defender 2000, you trolling retard.

 

 

Look bud! You and I should meet so I can personally knock you out for being a prick!

 

Bitch fight!!!

 

 

 

[Goochman]

OMG that is funny - nice