5200 newbie questions

[cyberfluxor]

Hello fellow 5200 collectors and gamers. I've been into the gaming market for about 4 years now and actually began somewhat collecting on the side for 2 years. Although the 90's were my favorite time due to my age, my uncle has always owned a 7800 with a few dozen 2600 and 7800 titles that were my first exposure to this entertainment. I'd guess from the lack of ever touching a 5200 (and still haven't to this day) the aura has drawn me into it. Here's my current situation:

Complete games:

Galaxian

Missle Command

Super Breakout

Cart-only games:

Centipede

Dig Dug

Pac-Man

As for hardware, I have one untested controller that was free from a private game store owner. I've always asked around to local shops if they've had any systems traded in and if they do to possibly hold it until I could check it out and in that past 14+ months only one has come in which was priced at $80 deck only with no hook-ups (I dislike this store anyhow with their poor service and high prices, rarely a bargin but is worth the look now and then). I've inquired around before on another community and really believe my best bet is going through forums even with shipping. Now here are my current problems and questions:

 

1) How tradable is it with loose Atari 2600 games to complete 5200? I know it varies depending on the titles but I'd like to get a general feeling between the two Atari systems trade values. A list of my current 2600 collection is here.

 

2) How hard is it to get boxes and manuals? Around here, like most other systems that packaged games in paper boxes, the 5200 carts are 99% of the time loose when they are found. By how much does a complete game vary with the commons?

 

3) I'm looking to possibly at some point have a complete collection but not right away. What are some of the absolute buys for the system that won't cost too much and how long does it generally take others to get most of the 5200 library? This is one of the reasons I really like the system, the large ratio of common games that may be easy to collect.

 

4) How easy is the system to work on? The controllers are known to break so are parts available at basic electronic shops? For moding the output on the 5200, what's the best way to go?

 

5) For homebrewing, is programming on the system difficult? What would it take to even get into the scene and how big is the following?

 

Sorry if any of the questions are easily found in a search or seem so simple an idiot should already know the answers. I just want a fresh response from the current active members and what's going on in the community itself. And of course more questions might come around in the near future.

Edited June 18, 2007 by cyberfluxor

[JB]

4) How easy is the system to work on? The controllers are known to break so are parts available at basic electronic shops?

 

No. But... all they really need is cleaning. A pencil eraser can do that.

 

 

A more permanent fix is to place a metallic coating on the buttons' carbon dots. I've seen rear windshield defroster repair kits recommended for this sort of thing, but I've never seen the kits, so...

 

The CHEAP way to fix it is gluing foil to the dots. The EASY way is buying the gold-plated buttons from Best Electronics.

[cyberfluxor]

I don't believe there's a Best Electronics around here but there's a nice place around the corner I still need to check out. But if this current controller is broken it's a simple fix? And while on the subject are there controller mods? Would a D-pad controller work nice or is it a total disaster with gameplay? Also, I've seen some games say they can be played with the trackball, are there any that play better with a trackball over the controller?

[JB]

I don't believe there's a Best Electronics around here but there's a nice place around the corner I still need to check out.

Far as I know, Best is mail-order only.

And replacement 5200 controller buttons aren't exactly the sort of thing people usually stock.

 

But if this current controller is broken it's a simple fix?

Like I said, it's usually just a matter of cleaning it with a pencil eraser. At least, short-term.

 

The most common issue is just that the flex circuit's tarnished on the button contacts. It doesn't take a lot to render it inoperative with carbon dots. Downside to just cleaning is that they fail again fairly fast.

Adding metal to the button side of the contacts pretty much removes the issue, but it's a mildly more elaborate project(I used superglue and aluminum foil, because I already had both).

 

 

If the cable is damaged, you have a much bigger problem and replacing the controller is the easiest fix.

 

And while on the subject are there controller mods? Would a D-pad controller work nice or is it a total disaster with gameplay?

That depends on the game.

 

Some games work well with digital control, others demand analog(I gather the modern adapters avoid the bugs triggered by older designs, so we can focus purely on gameplay).

 

I'm a large fan of the 5200 stick, but I'll readily admit that some games would benefit from an alternative input device.

Qix is the most notable in my opinion. I'm weird, though.

A more normal person might say something like PacMan.

 

 

Once you have a digital adapter, it falls to the classic joystick vs d-pad debate. Personally, I don't think the 5200 library is well-suited to a d-pad, but some people swear by them.

 

 

If you want to go digital, the best solution would probably be a Sega controller adapter. Then you can use most standard Genesis controllers, be they sticks or pads. No reason to lock yourself in to one solution.

 

Also, I've seen some games say they can be played with the trackball, are there any that play better with a trackball over the controller?

Missile Command and Centipede do, for a rather obvious start.

[jbanes]

2) How hard is it to get boxes and manuals? Around here, like most other systems that packaged games in paper boxes, the 5200 carts are 99% of the time loose when they are found. By how much does a complete game vary with the commons?

You can still find some 5200 stuff New In Box, but most 5200 cartridges are loose. The boxes, in my experience, tend to fall apart rather quickly. And Atari went REALLY cheap on the manuals. They're little more than inserts and are likely to get thrown away as advertising material.

 

5) For homebrewing, is programming on the system difficult? What would it take to even get into the scene and how big is the following?

Homebrewing (from my understanding) is almost exactly the same as developing for the Atari 8-bits. There are a few minor differences in memory layout and the controls, but that's about it. The vast majority of 5200 carts being created today are simply ports of existing A8 games that have been tweaked to work on the 5200. Thus you may see some very official-looking carts like Donkey Kong and M.U.L.E. that are actually reproductions/ports.

 

Still, there are 4 true homebrew games in AtariAge's store right now. Two of them are remakes (Beef Drop == Burger Time & Castle Crisis == Warlords) but the other two are pretty much original. I have Koffi and it's a fun little game.

[cyberfluxor]

I'll need to look into the JPN/EU Saturn controller to offer D-pad gameplay, or is it just best for the GEN? I planned on adapting a few SAT controllers for USB since there are plenty of resources locally incase I screw up or decide to make more.

 

In regards to homebrews, is there a basic dev kit ported onto the PC? I remember years ago stumbling across ROMs for homebrews on many different systems. And if I can go this route, is it easy to adapt for a cart? And actually thinking about it, I can't recall seeing a 5200 emulator.

[mimo]

Atari800win plus can be configured to emulate the 5200

[JB]

I'll need to look into the JPN/EU Saturn controller to offer D-pad gameplay, or is it just best for the GEN? I planned on adapting a few SAT controllers for USB since there are plenty of resources locally incase I screw up or decide to make more.

Saturn pads wouldn't be highly useful for the 5200, as there's no adapter available.

Seems an absurdly silly amount of work to take a Saturn pad, gut it, rebuild it as a Master System controller, then hook it into a Sega adapter and hook that into a 5200.

...

Or to use a device with 9 buttons when you'll only be able to use two(unless you design your own adapter, which has the added benefit of bringing start, pause, *, and # out onto your controller).

[cyberfluxor]

mimo:

Thanks for the info. It looks like they have an A800 emu for BSD which will be nice since I emulate Amiga on the same box.

 

JB:

I have no problem finding GEN and SMS controllers either, just that the Saturn controller is one of my favorites and most comfortable. I have some friends that are EEs and can help me hack the wires and controller. I don't mind the challenge at all and would like to just look into all of my options.

[ataridave]

4) How easy is the system to work on? The controllers are known to break so are parts available at basic electronic shops?

 

No. But... all they really need is cleaning. A pencil eraser can do that.

 

 

A more permanent fix is to place a metallic coating on the buttons' carbon dots. I've seen rear windshield defroster repair kits recommended for this sort of thing, but I've never seen the kits, so...

 

The CHEAP way to fix it is gluing foil to the dots. The EASY way is buying the gold-plated buttons from Best Electronics.

 

Are the controllers hard to take apart, or do you need to in order to place the metallic coating on the button's carbon dots? How about using cleaning with the eraser, or putting in those gold-plated buttons?

 

Also, are there any online stores that sell 5200 controllers that have been "fixed" with new buttons or metallic coating??

[Brian R.]

4) How easy is the system to work on? The controllers are known to break so are parts available at basic electronic shops?

 

No. But... all they really need is cleaning. A pencil eraser can do that.

 

 

A more permanent fix is to place a metallic coating on the buttons' carbon dots. I've seen rear windshield defroster repair kits recommended for this sort of thing, but I've never seen the kits, so...

 

The CHEAP way to fix it is gluing foil to the dots. The EASY way is buying the gold-plated buttons from Best Electronics.

 

Are the controllers hard to take apart, or do you need to in order to place the metallic coating on the button's carbon dots? How about using cleaning with the eraser, or putting in those gold-plated buttons?

 

Also, are there any online stores that sell 5200 controllers that have been "fixed" with new buttons or metallic coating??

 

Best Electronics: http://www.best-electronics-ca.com/5200.htm

 

4Jays: http://4jays.net/store//page75.html

 

Others are able to take the controllers apart and put them back together. I haven't been able to.

[ataridave]

4) How easy is the system to work on? The controllers are known to break so are parts available at basic electronic shops?

 

No. But... all they really need is cleaning. A pencil eraser can do that.

 

 

A more permanent fix is to place a metallic coating on the buttons' carbon dots. I've seen rear windshield defroster repair kits recommended for this sort of thing, but I've never seen the kits, so...

 

The CHEAP way to fix it is gluing foil to the dots. The EASY way is buying the gold-plated buttons from Best Electronics.

 

Are the controllers hard to take apart, or do you need to in order to place the metallic coating on the button's carbon dots? How about using cleaning with the eraser, or putting in those gold-plated buttons?

 

Also, are there any online stores that sell 5200 controllers that have been "fixed" with new buttons or metallic coating??

 

Best Electronics: http://www.best-electronics-ca.com/5200.htm

 

4Jays: http://4jays.net/store//page75.html

 

Others are able to take the controllers apart and put them back together. I haven't been able to.

 

Excellent; thanks for the links!

[JB]

4) How easy is the system to work on? The controllers are known to break so are parts available at basic electronic shops?

 

No. But... all they really need is cleaning. A pencil eraser can do that.

 

 

A more permanent fix is to place a metallic coating on the buttons' carbon dots. I've seen rear windshield defroster repair kits recommended for this sort of thing, but I've never seen the kits, so...

 

The CHEAP way to fix it is gluing foil to the dots. The EASY way is buying the gold-plated buttons from Best Electronics.

 

Are the controllers hard to take apart, or do you need to in order to place the metallic coating on the button's carbon dots? How about using cleaning with the eraser, or putting in those gold-plated buttons?

They aren't har dto take apart, but until you get it down, they're hard to put back together.

 

 

You have to snap off the frame that holds down start/pause/reset. Then you lift the buttons up and lift the flex circuit strip there.

Then you flip the controller over and remove 3 screws. Now the top will lift off the bottom. Center the stick before you do this.

 

From there, the fire buttons slide out of grooves in the sides, exposing both the carbon dots and the flex circuit. And the keys over the phone pad lift off.

 

 

 

 

As for putting it back together....

Drop the fire buttons back into the slots. Set the phone pad back on the flex circuit(there's a pair of holes that sorta kinda help with alignment, but not much).

If you messed with the joystick pots, return them to their centered positions(pointing left on one and down on the other, if I recall).

 

Now here's the tricky part....

With one hand, hold the stick centered and vertical. Apply upward pressure so the little plastic slider plates don't move around. This keeps everything in position for when you lower the top onto the bottom, and ALMOST guarantees the stick lines up with the pots.

Get the top near the bottom, and lace the start/pause/reset strip through the slot it came out of.

With luck, the phone pad won't have moved, and you can proceed with lowering the top onto the bottom.

Once it's firmly mated, you can let go of the stick and screw it shut.

Then you slap the start strip buttons down on top of their flex circuit strip and snap the bezel on.

 

 

It takes a bit of practice. Especially the centered stick part.

[cyberfluxor]

I plan on getting a few controllers whenever I'm ready to buy a system but for the time being I have just 1. I might just get some practice on this one so whenever I get that bunch of others it'll be easier to maintain them. And by the way, is it easy to do this with the trackball unit? There's been one at a pawn shop around the corner for several months, recently brought down from $40 to $30, that doesn't appear to be in the best shape which is why I haven't picked it up in addition to no way of test it.

Edited June 28, 2007 by cyberfluxor

[mimo]

I plan on getting a few controllers whenever I'm ready to buy a system but for the time being I have just 1. I might just get some practice on this one so whenever I get that bunch of others it'll be easier to maintain them. And by the way, is it easy to do this with the trackball unit? There's been one at a pawn shop around the corner for several months, recently brought down from $40 to $30, that doesn't appear to be in the best shape which is why I haven't picked it up in addition to no way of test it.

That is way too much for an untested trackball, try atari2600.com$24.95 plus shipping, got mine from him and it is almost mint, also everything is tested before it gets posted so no questions about it working

[JB]

I plan on getting a few controllers whenever I'm ready to buy a system but for the time being I have just 1. I might just get some practice on this one so whenever I get that bunch of others it'll be easier to maintain them. And by the way, is it easy to do this with the trackball unit? There's been one at a pawn shop around the corner for several months, recently brought down from $40 to $30, that doesn't appear to be in the best shape which is why I haven't picked it up in addition to no way of test it.

Track ball is far lower maintainence than the joysticks are. As I understand things, it uses circuit boards and dome switches, similar to the 2600 joystick.

Most of the 5200 controller issues are because the flex circuit used just wasn't up to the level of abuse it would see in a game controller.

[jbanes]

Most of the 5200 controller issues are because the flex circuit used just wasn't up to the level of abuse it would see in a game controller.

Actually, it's not even an abuse problem. It's a chemical reaction/oxydization problem. If you pull apart a modern soft-key keyboard, you'll find a very large flex circuit underneath. However, this circuit is usually constructed out of about three sheets. When put together correctly, these sheets are effectively sealed to prevent exposure of their delicate circuitry to the elements. The 5200 controllers, on the other hand, use the flex circuits as if they were PCB boards and exposes the circuits directly. The circuits gunk up or oxydize, then stop working correctly.

 

Abuse-wise, I'd say the 5200 stick was about as long-lasting as anything else Atari produced. Save for the boot, that is. The boot was not particularly well designed and never should have been used to center the stick.

[JB]

Most of the 5200 controller issues are because the flex circuit used just wasn't up to the level of abuse it would see in a game controller.

Actually, it's not even an abuse problem. It's a chemical reaction/oxydization problem. If you pull apart a modern soft-key keyboard, you'll find a very large flex circuit underneath. However, this circuit is usually constructed out of about three sheets. When put together correctly, these sheets are effectively sealed to prevent exposure of their delicate circuitry to the elements. The 5200 controllers, on the other hand, use the flex circuits as if they were PCB boards and exposes the circuits directly. The circuits gunk up or oxydize, then stop working correctly.

 

Abuse-wise, I'd say the 5200 stick was about as long-lasting as anything else Atari produced. Save for the boot, that is. The boot was not particularly well designed and never should have been used to center the stick.

If it's just a construction problem, why does the issue seem to hit fire and start, but leave the numpad largely unaffected?

[jbanes]

If it's just a construction problem, why does the issue seem to hit fire and start, but leave the numpad largely unaffected?

My numpads tend to work just as poorly as the rest of the controller. In fact, you're the first I've heard of that doesn't have the same problem with his numpads.

[ymike673]

I plan on getting a few controllers whenever I'm ready to buy a system but for the time being I have just 1. I might just get some practice on this one so whenever I get that bunch of others it'll be easier to maintain them. And by the way, is it easy to do this with the trackball unit? There's been one at a pawn shop around the corner for several months, recently brought down from $40 to $30, that doesn't appear to be in the best shape which is why I haven't picked it up in addition to no way of test it.

Track ball is far lower maintainence than the joysticks are. As I understand things, it uses circuit boards and dome switches, similar to the 2600 joystick.

Most of the 5200 controller issues are because the flex circuit used just wasn't up to the level of abuse it would see in a game controller.

 

I have my Track Ball hooked up to the WICO joystick and the combination works great.

[JB]

If it's just a construction problem, why does the issue seem to hit fire and start, but leave the numpad largely unaffected?

My numpads tend to work just as poorly as the rest of the controller. In fact, you're the first I've heard of that doesn't have the same problem with his numpads.

Odd.

 

In my limited experience, the only numpad keys to cause trouble are * and #, and those behave far better than start and fire, which just don't work.

[Atariman]

If it's just a construction problem, why does the issue seem to hit fire and start, but leave the numpad largely unaffected?

My numpads tend to work just as poorly as the rest of the controller. In fact, you're the first I've heard of that doesn't have the same problem with his numpads.

Odd.

 

In my limited experience, the only numpad keys to cause trouble are * and #, and those behave far better than start and fire, which just don't work.

 

I have had similar experiences as Jbanes with my 5200 sticks - when I rebuilt two of them, I didn't bother getting the new keypads - and the keypad buttons are now completely unresponsive - no amount of pressing, pushing, or mashing provided any desired result. It seems like the more I clean my 5200 contacts, the faster they oxidize. Of course, it had been quite some time since I had last used it, so it could just be that they experienced more oxidation due to lack of use.

[edweird13]

I just bought a flex circut and the the top fire buttons still don't work. I have even tried the foil on the button trick. Still no good.

[cyberfluxor]

Not to go off my original topic, but a local game store has a bunch of CIB 5200 games for $3.99 each, and if you buy 3 you get the 4th one free. Also they have a 4-port 5200 with a controller and hook-ups for $80 and choose 6 games to go with it. I don't think I'll go with the console but some of the games I'm eye-balling are:

River Raid, Berzerk, Pengo (sealed), Star Trek, Space Dungeon, Gyruss, Qix, Choplifter!, Robotron: 2084.

Then a few I'm not too sure about getting right now:

Frogger, Space Invaders, Joust, Vanguard, Baseball

The remainers are:

Missle Command (already own CIB), Pole Position, Counter Measure, Q*Bert, Soccer, Galaxian (already own CIB), Popeye, Ennis, Moon Patrol, Star Raiders

And I might grab Centipede to have the CIB to replace my loose copy.

 

Some games have ratty tops and a few are still sealed, just recall Pengo being one. So is it a good idea to skip out on those remainers or should I just not worry about them, any I chose that aren't really worth it? I know it's a decent price it's just I don't need to just buy 25 games ATM, just a good 10.

 

mimo:

Thanks for the link. I'll keep it in mind as I'm not quite ready to get a console and extra accessories just yet.

[Brian R.]

Not to go off my original topic, but a local game store has a bunch of CIB 5200 games for $3.99 each, and if you buy 3 you get the 4th one free. Also they have a 4-port 5200 with a controller and hook-ups for $80 and choose 6 games to go with it. I don't think I'll go with the console but some of the games I'm eye-balling are:

River Raid, Berzerk, Pengo (sealed), Star Trek, Space Dungeon, Gyruss, Qix, Choplifter!, Robotron: 2084.

Then a few I'm not too sure about getting right now:

Frogger, Space Invaders, Joust, Vanguard, Baseball

The remainers are:

Missle Command (already own CIB), Pole Position, Counter Measure, Q*Bert, Soccer, Galaxian (already own CIB), Popeye, Ennis, Moon Patrol, Star Raiders

And I might grab Centipede to have the CIB to replace my loose copy.

 

Some games have ratty tops and a few are still sealed, just recall Pengo being one. So is it a good idea to skip out on those remainers or should I just not worry about them, any I chose that aren't really worth it? I know it's a decent price it's just I don't need to just buy 25 games ATM, just a good 10.

 

mimo:

Thanks for the link. I'll keep it in mind as I'm not quite ready to get a console and extra accessories just yet.

 

WOW! I wish I lived near there. Great prices for the games and the system. For $80, with six games, that's a steal. I'd grab it if I were you.

 

As for games... River Raid is good, some nice tweaks from the 2600 version; Berzerk is good, but hard; Pengo is good, IMO. Qix is a classic.

Space Invaders is different, but good in its own way. I either don't like or don't know about the others.

Popeye is pretty good.