Which 8-bit to keep?

[Big_Mo]

Hey all:

 

Just curious on your opinions on something.

 

Going through my garage, I found I have 3 Atari 8-bits. A 1200XL, an 800XL and a 130XE, all unmodded. I don't plan to keep all of them, so I'm trying to decide which one to stick with. I like the 1200XL looks-wise, but it's impractical unmodified.

 

Thoughts?

[Rybags]

Unmodded, probably the 130XE despite it's poxy keyboard and user-unfriendly cartridge location.

 

Practicalwise, probably the 800XL despite the RAM penalty.

 

Expansionwise, the 1200XL since it's roomy and can be upgraded up and beyond the 130XEs capability.

 

Valuewise, the 1200XL again since it would easily be the rarest and command a resale price probably double the other two combined.

[mimo]

mod the 1200

[+LS650]

The 1200XL is the most uncommon of the three, and probably worth the most money.

 

Why not keep all three? You won't get that many bucks for selling the 800XL or the 130XE, so I'd recommend sticking them in the closet as back-ups in case your 1200XL breaks down.

[WizWor]

The 1200XL is the most uncommon of the three, and probably worth the most money.

 

Why not keep all three? You won't get that many bucks for selling the 800XL or the 130XE, so I'd recommend sticking them in the closet as back-ups in case your 1200XL breaks down.

I think the 1200 should be lovingly boxed for timely appreciation -- unless you do a lot of keyboarding. The 130xe is the best machine for day to day use -- despite the keyboard. If you want to get rid of a machine (I can't), get rid of the 800xl.

[Rybags]

I wouldn't say it wins the ease-of-use stakes.

 

Main keyboard aside, it has the console keys laid out in the annoying horizontal fashion as well.

 

Plus, I'd bet the 800 and 1200XL will still be working in 10 years - and the XE wouldn't be.

[Big_Mo]

Keeping all three is just occupying space I don't want to give up. It's more stuff I don't need, and I hardly use the 8-bits as is.

 

As to modding the 1200XL, sure, i could do that, but I'm not familiar enough with that machine to know how compatible the mods make it. Also, given that it's already got a few questionable keys, and relatively crappy video out, it seems like a lot of work to get that machine up to snuff. But you can try to convince me otherwise

[WizWor]

Plus, I'd bet the 800 and 1200XL will still be working in 10 years - and the XE wouldn't be.

Why do you say this? My 130XEs work fine after 20 years -- why would they not work fine after 30?

[Ross PK]

Plus, I'd bet the 800 and 1200XL will still be working in 10 years - and the XE wouldn't be.

Why do you say this? My 130XEs work fine after 20 years -- why would they not work fine after 30?

 

I guess they just seem to be more cheaply made.

[WizWor]

I guess they just seem to be more cheaply made.

LOL, maybe, but I mostly have Dell computers and it's hard to consider anything else cheaply made once you've had a Dell. MTBF is 2.65 years for the models we have at work. All of my Atari computers have exceeded that 10x. I think the keyboard could be an issue if I ever used one to type, but my days of Atari Writer and Bankstreet Writer are long gone.

 

My day to day A8 is an XEGS. I like the style and appreciate the component video out. If my XEGS crapped out, I'd use a 130XE with a video cable (I'm never using rf out again). My main attraction to the 400/800 is/was the four joystick ports, but these days it's tough to get four people together for a little asteroids.

 

That said, I'd love to have a 1200XL or a 14xx Atari. I'd add a shelf to the shrine for one of these.

 

How much do you want for that 1200XL, mo?

Edited June 25, 2007 by WizWor

[MEtalGuy66]

1. make sure the keyboard works on the 1200XL..

2. shitcan the motherboard from the 1200XL.

3. modify the case of the 1200XL to accept the 130XE motherboard.

4. rework the 130xe motherboard to make it decent.

5. rework the 1200XL keyboard to plug into the 130xe motherboard.

6. stick the 130xe motherboard in the 1200XL case and reassemble.

7. enjoy one bad-ass machine that has the best features of all the 8-bit ATARIs.

 

 

(I have one machine done this way, and all the parts to assemble a second one. I wouldnt trade it for the world.)

[Urchlay]

2. shitcan the motherboard from the 1200XL.

...

(I have one machine done this way, and all the parts to assemble a second one. I wouldnt trade it for the world.)

 

Every time you do this, you're destroying 2 Ataris to make one... it's not like they're being made any more, you know.

 

Next time you do this, instead of throwing out the 1200XL motherboard, send it to me. I'll put it to good use.

[+kheller2]

Yeah! Just mod the 1200XL .. you can do everything the 130XE can with a 1200XL.

 

While thats a nice idea... Its fine if you happen to have spare cases and boards... otherwise its a sin!

[Ross PK]

2. shitcan the motherboard from the 1200XL.

...

(I have one machine done this way, and all the parts to assemble a second one. I wouldnt trade it for the world.)

 

Every time you do this, you're destroying 2 Ataris to make one... it's not like they're being made any more, you know.

 

Next time you do this, instead of throwing out the 1200XL motherboard, send it to me. I'll put it to good use.

 

Yeah, I'm not too keen on this either. I don't really like the idea of perfectly good A8 stuff being butchered and cobbled together into something else. I don't even like the idea of modding either. No offence to anyone.

Edited June 25, 2007 by Ross PK

[accousticguitar]

I can see Metalguy's point. He's taking the best of both machines and combining them into one great machine. I don't like the idea that it reduces the number of Atari computers though.

[MEtalGuy66]

Yeah! Just mod the 1200XL .. you can do everything the 130XE can with a 1200XL.

 

While thats a nice idea... Its fine if you happen to have spare cases and boards... otherwise its a sin!

 

Thats true.. WIth a freakin RATS NEST of added crap, you can do everything on a 1200XL motherboard that you can with the XE.

 

Add internal Basic and "normal" OS roms = fairly easy..

 

Add PBI/ECI bus= 1 major rats nest of crap.

 

Add extended ram with true antic extended video access = another rats nest of crap..

 

But if your going to MOD the 1200XL, what's the difference? The XE case & keyboard is not worth keeping because typing on it totally sucks..

 

 

Also, the 130xe motherboard is significantly smaller than the 1200XL one and provides ever MORE room for internal expansions.

 

And also, using the 130XE motherboard gets the power-supply completely outside of the machine, making for even more room.

 

Oh and dont worry, I did give the 1200XL motherboards away to someone who wanted them. I didnt literally mean to throw them away. They are at least good for spare chips.

Edited June 26, 2007 by MEtalGuy66

[Urchlay]

I don't even like the idea of modding either. No offence to anyone.

 

A 1200XL *needs* a supervideo or clearpic mod, if you plan to actually use it on a regular basis... picture quality on a stock 1200XL is pretty rotten, compared to an 800 or 800XL.

 

Also... what good is a 600XL if you don't at least upgrade its memory to 64K? Can't do much with it (use it as a game console, or a source of spare parts for fixing 800XL's). While you already have it open, might as well add composite video output (much nicer than using RF, not all that difficult to do. S-video is harder though).

 

Keep in mind I'm speaking as a user and developer, not a collector... nothing I have is new in box, and most of the stuff I have that does have the box, isn't kept in the box (can't use it in its box). If you're mainly a collector, I can understand the value of having unmodded "like new" stock machines... even then though, you probably have one Atari you keep hooked up to play with, might as well make it as nice as you can.

[MEtalGuy66]

Yep and from the standpoint of someone who has input a couple million keystrokes into MAC/65 in my life, I want the power and flexibility of a 130XE, with the keyboard of a 1200XL.

 

Heh. And in case you dont have an ebay account, theres not exactly any kind of shortage of ATARI 8-bit hardware available VERY CHEAP.

 

Hell, beetle literally SAWS UP entire STACKS of XL hardware just to get plastic pieces to make his custom cases for his projects.

 

I say if you are serious about only keeping one machine...

and you truly want the best machine you can have...

and you can "wield" a soldering iron with a level of proficiency above "retard..."

and you can use a dremel tool and a file...

 

Do what I said and build a "1200XE"

 

You wont be sorry..

[+kheller2]

Yeah! Just mod the 1200XL .. you can do everything the 130XE can with a 1200XL.

 

While thats a nice idea... Its fine if you happen to have spare cases and boards... otherwise its a sin!

 

Thats true.. WIth a freakin RATS NEST of added crap, you can do everything on a 1200XL motherboard that you can with the XE.

 

Add internal Basic and "normal" OS roms = fairly easy..

 

Add PBI/ECI bus= 1 major rats nest of crap.

 

Add extended ram with true antic extended video access = another rats nest of crap..

 

But if your going to MOD the 1200XL, what's the difference? The XE case & keyboard is not worth keeping because typing on it totally sucks..

 

 

Also, the 130xe motherboard is significantly smaller than the 1200XL one and provides ever MORE room for internal expansions.

 

 

The PBI can be done nicely.... pulling most lines off the cart port or building and inline board for one of the major chips. 50 pin SCSI cable to a male header mounted to the lower case. But it would still be a mess in most people's eyes I guess. (I'll stick with a 1450 board).

 

Hmm. I wonder if the 600XL would be better inside a 1200XL case. The 130XE is easy since the cart port is out the back and you don't have to cut a hole in the lid nor wire up cart port on the side. One could probably get the top cart doors working on a 1200XL with enough cutting and glueing.

 

Ok.. maybe I'll try the 1200XE. I have a spare 130XE board and some shot 1200XL shells that might be painted black or 130XE grey. HAHA sick.

 

I'll agree the 130XE keyboard sucks.

Edited June 26, 2007 by kheller2

[Gunstar]

1. make sure the keyboard works on the 1200XL..

2. shitcan the motherboard from the 1200XL.

3. modify the case of the 1200XL to accept the 130XE motherboard.

4. rework the 130xe motherboard to make it decent.

5. rework the 1200XL keyboard to plug into the 130xe motherboard.

6. stick the 130xe motherboard in the 1200XL case and reassemble.

7. enjoy one bad-ass machine that has the best features of all the 8-bit ATARIs.

 

 

(I have one machine done this way, and all the parts to assemble a second one. I wouldnt trade it for the world.)

 

I just don't understand why you want to do this, the 1200XL MOBO is far better made, far more reliable and far easier to upgrade it to 130XE compatiblity and even better than going through all the truoble to modify it for use with a 130XE MOBO. It's even easier to add the PBI to the 1200XL than doing all that with the 130XE&1200XL case. It was a cool project for you to do once, but to waste all those good 1200XL&130XE computers just to combine them is just totally illogical and a waste. The first thing I did once I had my 1200XL upgraded was to sell the 130XE. My 1200XL does everything the XE did and is much nicer overall. And it's Much easier to upgrade than other Atari's.

[+remowilliams]

Tough call on which one to keep, which is why I kept them all.

 

My 1200XL has a 32-in-1 OS upgrade, internal basic, new MMU, SuperVideo 2.1, 256K 130XE compatible ram upgrade and an internal SIO2PC. So clearly its the most capable of my A8s, but still isn't necessarily the one I always use.

[Ross PK]

I don't even like the idea of modding either. No offence to anyone.

 

A 1200XL *needs* a supervideo or clearpic mod, if you plan to actually use it on a regular basis... picture quality on a stock 1200XL is pretty rotten, compared to an 800 or 800XL.

 

Also... what good is a 600XL if you don't at least upgrade its memory to 64K? Can't do much with it (use it as a game console, or a source of spare parts for fixing 800XL's). While you already have it open, might as well add composite video output (much nicer than using RF, not all that difficult to do. S-video is harder though).

 

Keep in mind I'm speaking as a user and developer, not a collector... nothing I have is new in box, and most of the stuff I have that does have the box, isn't kept in the box (can't use it in its box). If you're mainly a collector, I can understand the value of having unmodded "like new" stock machines... even then though, you probably have one Atari you keep hooked up to play with, might as well make it as nice as you can.

 

I'm not a collector. I only have an 800XL and I use it to play games on. My personal preference, especially if a system holds nostalgia to me, is to just keep it original.

 

Actually I do have ONE mod, and that's a scart lead plugged into the monitor socket, but that's because the ariel just doesn't give a good picture anymore.

 

I respect what other people do with their computers, unless they're just destroying them for the fun of it. But to me personally modding or changing anything makes it feel like it's getting ruined. I understand though that some people use them for more than just games and that's where mods come in really handy.

Edited June 26, 2007 by Ross PK

[MEtalGuy66]

I just don't understand why you want to do this, the 1200XL MOBO is far better made, far more reliable and far easier to upgrade it to 130XE compatiblity and even better than going through all the truoble to modify it for use with a 130XE MOBO. It's even easier to add the PBI to the 1200XL than doing all that with the 130XE&1200XL case. It was a cool project for you to do once, but to waste all those good 1200XL&130XE computers just to combine them is just totally illogical and a waste. The first thing I did once I had my 1200XL upgraded was to sell the 130XE. My 1200XL does everything the XE did and is much nicer overall. And it's Much easier to upgrade than other Atari's.

 

Heh. All the 130XE motherboard needs is sockets to make it superior in every possible way to a 1200XL motherboard.

 

as far as the actual production quality of the PCB goes, the 130xe boards vary based on board revision. Ive seen at least 3 different levels of quality. The "shiny ones" are quite a bit nicer than the 1200XL gen boards. The problem on almost all 130XE boards is that the mass soldering technology used to assemble them was not at all well applied, and thus they have tons of cold solder joints, compounded by the lack of socketed chips..

 

ANd no, your 1200XL is not 100% 130XE compatible, if you think it is, Ill send you a demo that uses separate CPU and ANTIC access to different banks of ram simultaneously and prove you wrong. Most people consider this to be an obscure feature not worth worrying about, but from the standpoint of someone who has "ran the atari out of resources" on graphics applications, and thus hit a "brick wall" in my graphics related coding projects MANY TIMES, its a feature that is well worth keeping.

 

The ONLY ram exapnsion I have ever seen that actually does create 100% 130XE compatability in non 130xe machines is the Satantronic upgrade where they literally made their own GAL based "EMMU CHIP". All the other so called "130xe compatability fixes" correct the bank adressing scheme to be the same as the 130xe, but DO NOT CREATE separate ANTIC & CPU bank access control.

 

 

As far as the 1200XL motherboard being easier to upgrade, I dont know on what basis you consider that to be the case.

 

And as I said, "wasting" atari equipment is like "wasting" CHEVY 350 blocks.. They are laying around everywhere. Niether of the 2 systems is going to become scarce any time soon. I'm not "hacking up" 1400XLs or 65XEPs..

[+kheller2]

I have read, but can not find -- that any XL can be upgraded to 100% 130XE antic/cpu switching with the drop in of the 130XE EMMU and some additional TTLs and DRAMs. FREDDIE really isn't needed in the design as it just replaced a bunch of board components.

 

I think metalguy is stating that the 130XE motherboard itself is a superior design, which technically it would be. Just as the REV D 800XL board looks and feels like a 130XE era board and has done away with those power line jumpers near the keyboard, etc. However, REV D boards typically are a pile of mixed components, some sockets and the horrible RAM chips found in 130XEs.

 

I'm curious about the 800XL freddie boards and to see how well they are.

 

In contrast to this, I think the components and manufacturing of the 1200XL and early 800XLs are far superior to anything that is on a 130XE. I'd go far as to say that the early 800XL boards are probably the best made all around, in my opinion.

Edited June 27, 2007 by kheller2

[Ross PK]

I have read, but can not find -- that any XL can be upgraded to 100% 130XE antic/cpu switching with the drop in of the 130XE EMMU and some additional TTLs and DRAMs. FREDDIE really isn't needed in the design as it just replaced a bunch of board components.

 

I think metalguy is stating that the 130XE motherboard itself is a superior design, which technically it would be. Just as the REV D 800XL board looks and feels like a 130XE era board and has done away with those power line jumpers near the keyboard, etc. However, REV D boards typically are a pile of mixed components, some sockets and the horrible RAM chips found in 130XEs.

 

I'm curious about the 800XL freddie boards and to see how well they are.

 

In contrast to this, I think the components and manufacturing of the 1200XL and early 800XLs are far superior to anything that is on a 130XE. I'd go far as to say that the early 800XL boards are probably the best made all around, in my opinion.

 

Freddie boards? Is this what the earliest 800XL's had?