proof that the 5200 joysticks suck?

[phuzaxeman]

if the 5200 joysticks don't work well or for some not even playable, then why are there a significant number of gamers using the stock setup and scoring high scores?

 

i'm not denying the unreliability of the stock controllers but i think when they are able to work, they work fine once you get used to them.

 

if the controllers are not playable (as some people claim) for the 5200 games, then you would think that all the emulation 5200 gamers or wico/aftermarket owners would win in the high score rounds all the time? what is your take? regardless, i think it's an interesting point.

[Atari5200]

i don't honestly remember reading what each person in the HSC uses as a controller scheme. Let alone the winners. Since there's only 2 people participating, maybe they can answer what they are using. I use the stock controller myself, it's not an issue for me and I actually think it's a good controller, not the best, but not near as terrible as it's made out to be.

[accousticguitar]

if the controllers are not playable (as some people claim) for the 5200 games, then you would think that all the emulation 5200 gamers or wico/aftermarket owners would win in the high score rounds all the time? what is your take? regardless, i think it's an interesting point.

PC controllers and Wico controllers also suck.

[NCN]

i don't honestly remember reading what each person in the HSC uses as a controller scheme. Let alone the winners. Since there's only 2 people participating, maybe they can answer what they are using. I use the stock controller myself, it's not an issue for me and I actually think it's a good controller, not the best, but not near as terrible as it's made out to be.

 

That pretty much sums it up for me. I love the stock controller, personally. I don't really think I'd play any other way, although I'd be interested in having one of the rebuilds with a 2600 Paddle setup.

[Michael_]

PC controllers and Wico controllers also suck.

Eh?

Wico controllers are just about the best I´ve ever come across, be it for the 5200 or the C64.

Sheer quality.

 

Regarding the 5200 stock controllers, I´ve never had any serious issues. Treat them well and they´ll work. That said, I still prefer a Wico when playing games on the 5200.

[Divya16]

if the 5200 joysticks don't work well or for some not even playable, then why are there a significant number of gamers using the stock setup and scoring high scores?

 

i'm not denying the unreliability of the stock controllers but i think when they are able to work, they work fine once you get used to them.

 

if the controllers are not playable (as some people claim) for the 5200 games, then you would think that all the emulation 5200 gamers or wico/aftermarket owners would win in the high score rounds all the time? what is your take? regardless, i think it's an interesting point.

 

You'll score much higher if you use an Atari 2600 paddle for Super Breakout (once you get used to it) than using a stock Atari 5200 controller (that's my experience anyway). I don't think people are claiming the controllers are bad, but they go bad after some time on their own which the Atari 2600 paddles don't. I have several controllers which I fixed a few times but some buttons just stop working after some time. So I use an Atari 2600 keyboard controller for the keypad and Wico stick/Paddle for most games. I have yet to have a keyboard controller button fail.

[accousticguitar]

PC controllers and Wico controllers also suck.

Eh?

Wico controllers are just about the best I´ve ever come across, be it for the 5200 or the C64.

Sheer quality.

 

Regarding the 5200 stock controllers, I´ve never had any serious issues. Treat them well and they´ll work. That said, I still prefer a Wico when playing games on the 5200.

In order to "prove" that the 5200 joysticks don't suck, you would have to compare scores obtained with controllers that are generally accepted as "controllers that don't suck." I would characterize the CX-40 as the perfect controller to compare it to, not the Wico joystick or a PC joystick.

[phuzaxeman]

if the 5200 joysticks don't work well or for some not even playable, then why are there a significant number of gamers using the stock setup and scoring high scores?

 

i'm not denying the unreliability of the stock controllers but i think when they are able to work, they work fine once you get used to them.

 

if the controllers are not playable (as some people claim) for the 5200 games, then you would think that all the emulation 5200 gamers or wico/aftermarket owners would win in the high score rounds all the time? what is your take? regardless, i think it's an interesting point.

 

You'll score much higher if you use an Atari 2600 paddle for Super Breakout (once you get used to it) than using a stock Atari 5200 controller (that's my experience anyway)....

interesting, i do better on the 5200 than on my 2600 paddles breakout. that's just me though. one of my best games that i'm good at (hoping this would be in the competition) is super breakout. some people dont like the game, but i love it with the 5200 controllers.

 

to me, playing the 5200 without the original controllers isn't really experiencing the 5200 effect. and that goes for all the systems i like and own.

[Divya16]

if the 5200 joysticks don't work well or for some not even playable, then why are there a significant number of gamers using the stock setup and scoring high scores?

 

i'm not denying the unreliability of the stock controllers but i think when they are able to work, they work fine once you get used to them.

 

if the controllers are not playable (as some people claim) for the 5200 games, then you would think that all the emulation 5200 gamers or wico/aftermarket owners would win in the high score rounds all the time? what is your take? regardless, i think it's an interesting point.

 

You'll score much higher if you use an Atari 2600 paddle for Super Breakout (once you get used to it) than using a stock Atari 5200 controller (that's my experience anyway)....

interesting, i do better on the 5200 than on my 2600 paddles breakout. that's just me though. one of my best games that i'm good at (hoping this would be in the competition) is super breakout. some people dont like the game, but i love it with the 5200 controllers.

 

to me, playing the 5200 without the original controllers isn't really experiencing the 5200 effect. and that goes for all the systems i like and own.

 

With games like SuperBreakout and using a Paddle, you can go to an exact spot whereas it's very difficult to do that with a standard Atari 5200 controller. And I have noticed that the stock 5200 controllers do go bad after either too much use or if they have not been used for a long time. I think someone made those new flex circuits with gold contacts which can help them be robust and durable like the Atari 2600 keyboard controller. But I still prefer having better trigger buttons. The Atari 5200 controller trigger buttons are too small and on the side. Better on the Wico stick and bigger on an Atari 2600 paddle.

 

As far as experiencing the Atari 5200 effect, the focus is usually on the screen-- the audio-visuals and the timing and addiction of the game so usually you forget about the controller you are using. And if you use a keyboard controller, you don't really have to keep pressing things on it since for most games, it's just start/reset or level change in the beginning.

[phuzaxeman]

 

 

...As far as experiencing the Atari 5200 effect, the focus is usually on the screen-- the audio-visuals and the timing and addiction of the game so usually you forget about the controller you are using. And if you use a keyboard controller, you don't really have to keep pressing things on it since for most games, it's just start/reset or level change in the beginning.

 

anyone that actually grew up with these games and this system will know the "5200" feeling i'm talking about. while i own a multicart, i own the original 5200 box (and instructions) and cardboard pieces from xmas of '82. my controllers are from the same system but rebuilt and all the games i used to own (i sold) still have their boxes. the focus is not necessarily on the screen, but the totality including the box, instructions, and the orginal hardware, and game itself.

 

we all love the fact that mame and emulation is so easy to obtain. but even when you play mame, you can only emulate games not the experience of sitting in the star wars machine, pole position arcade, donkey kong graphics on the cabinet, to playing four players on gauntlet, and/or playing an actual 5200 system (or any retro system). the screen is the focus but the feel is not really the same.

Edited January 22, 2008 by phuzaxeman

[Jess Ragan]

I think the low build quality and high failure rate of the 5200 joysticks should be adequate proof that there's something wrong with that controller. People have reported that the stock sticks fail through both frequent use and no use at all, and nearly every game journalist from the early 1980's had openly expressed their disappointment with it.

 

Hey, if you like the 5200 joysticks, you're entitled to that opinion. However, the fact that joystick adapters were available for the 5200 within a year of its launch, and the fact that adapters continue to be built for the system some twenty five years later, should be a strong indication that many people don't share your opinion.

[Atari5200]

Jess, the topic isn't about how they are built, it's about how well they perform in game.

[Charlie_]

It is not build quality. The quality is excellent as far as that goes. It is the design of the flex circuit and carbon dot buttons. It is the engineering. Basicaly the 5200 buttons are a remote control same as you use with your cable box.

 

And just as a note here: I dug all my 5200 joystick parts and rebuilt controllers out of my attic. I had 2 that are MINT in condition and I had rebuilt them using brand new rev 9 flex cards. (not gold) I stored them in a sealed ZIPLOCK bag with most of the air sucked out to keep them as good as can be. Well after lets say 7 years in storage I tried them today and they work but you have to press hard on the buttons. So that standard flex circiut card needs an eraser taken to it. And this stored and kept as nice as could be. On the other hand the 2 I use today and for the last 7 years, rebuilt at the same time as the 2 in storage, they work perfectly fine.

[MIKE5200]

They don't suck but they don't get you a higher score on a few games unless you get a wico. Though i heard gold are better

[doctorclu]

I'm one of the 5200 HSC contestants, and here is what I use...

 

If I actually own the game (since I don't have a rom loader for the 5200) I use a wico controller.

 

If I don't own the game, then I use a Dreamcast running a 5200 emulator.

 

So there you have it. Stock 5200 controller is painful for me to use (with the fire buttons on the side like they are.)

[Prodos8]

Here's my order of preference when it comes to 5200 controllers/alternatives:

 

1. MasterPlay/Redemption or equivilent with a Sega 3-button pad.

 

2. Stock 5200 controller. (working of course )

 

3. Wico stick. While it is well built and reliable, the ergonomics are horrible (imagine holding half a brick) imo.

[JB]

if the controllers are not playable (as some people claim) for the 5200 games, then you would think that all the emulation 5200 gamers or wico/aftermarket owners would win in the high score rounds all the time? what is your take? regardless, i think it's an interesting point.

PC controllers and Wico controllers also suck.

Blanket-torpedoing every PC controller with one shot is a bit biased.

Yes, there's a lot of dogs out there. There's also some very fine devices.

 

I'll take my 360/PC Hori stick over a CX-40 any day.

Of course, given the *ahem* "high regard" I hold the CX-40 in, that doesn't really say much.

I'll take it over an NES Advantage and a NES->USB adapter, which DOES say something.

[accousticguitar]

Blanket-torpedoing every PC controller with one shot is a bit biased.

Yes, there's a lot of dogs out there. There's also some very fine devices.

And easily refuted.

 

The reason the 5200 sticks reign supreme could be because they are great, or it could be because the others are not.

Edited January 25, 2008 by accousticguitar

[Shannon]

As far as emu's go I think the only one that does true analog is the Dreamcast emulator. In fact I borrowed it's code for the x-box port. All other ports rely on the mouse input junk which is iffy.

 

For most games the feel of the analog is much better. There are a few titles where the analog movement is to quick though.

[BydoEmpire]

IMHO the 5200 controllers are only bad for a couple of games that weren't written to use them properly. I actually like the stock controllers for most games. I also vastly, vastly prefer playing on real hardware rather than on an emulator. Emus just aren't as fun for me, and the 5200 controller - despite its flaws - sure beats arrow keys and space bar!

 

[Edit] I should mention that I rarely do well in the HSC, so I can't say the stock controllers would be better or worse scorewise. Although I was pretty competetive in Keystone Kapers, which is a "digitally" controlling game.

Edited January 25, 2008 by BydoEmpire

[midnight8]

I think the low build quality and high failure rate of the 5200 joysticks should be adequate proof that there's something wrong with that controller. People have reported that the stock sticks fail through both frequent use and no use at all, and nearly every game journalist from the early 1980's had openly expressed their disappointment with it.

 

Hey, if you like the 5200 joysticks, you're entitled to that opinion. However, the fact that joystick adapters were available for the 5200 within a year of its launch, and the fact that adapters continue to be built for the system some twenty five years later, should be a strong indication that many people don't share your opinion.

 

 

My biggest proble with the 5200 sticks is those stupid side fire buttons. Those things kill my hands. The auto centering thing never bothered me. As far as the pc sticks go I have 5 of them a couple of the work really well and a couple of them suck soyou cannot lump them all into 1 group. I think I am going to buy these nuber pads for my adapter tho. http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/cate...85/Keypads.html

[JB]

Blanket-torpedoing every PC controller with one shot is a bit biased.

Yes, there's a lot of dogs out there. There's also some very fine devices.

And easily refuted.

 

The reason the 5200 sticks reign supreme could be because they are great, or it could be because the others are not.

Or it could be that the people playing really hard on the contests are the people playing on real systems.

Or even that the guys on emulators never invested in a controller and are flying by keyboard.

Or perhaps just that the small sampling we have present here is using poor controllers. It IS a pretty small sampling.

 

Your simple refutation ignores a very large number of variables, and is a false dichotomy.

You've already argued that you have to compare the controller to a known quantity to verify it doesn't suck. I'd argue you have to do the same to verify it DOES suck.

 

 

Just because one of the most popular gamepads for years was one of the worst(Gravis Gamepad, and later Gravis Gamepad Pro) doesn't mean ALL of them suck.

 

 

 

But, if ALL PC controllers suck...

http://www.atariage.com/store/index.php?ma...products_id=267

 

I must humbly concede the point. And thank you for it.

Your irrefutably ironclad logic has cemented the CX-40 in the pits of gaming hell.

 

 

 

Or is your real argument "anything that isn't a CX-40 sucks"?

[accousticguitar]

I apologize for being unclear. I am trying to say that the 5200 stock joystick's domination of the HSC does not necessarily prove that it doesn't suck. There are other possible explanations for it, some of which were provided in your post. All in all, my feelings on the matter were summed up quite succinctly (with more clarity and eloquence than I can hope to muster) in Jess Ragan's post. What he said.

[phonedork]

if the 5200 joysticks don't work well or for some not even playable, then why are there a significant number of gamers using the stock setup and scoring high scores?

 

i'm not denying the unreliability of the stock controllers but i think when they are able to work, they work fine once you get used to them.

 

if the controllers are not playable (as some people claim) for the 5200 games, then you would think that all the emulation 5200 gamers or wico/aftermarket owners would win in the high score rounds all the time? what is your take? regardless, i think it's an interesting point.

 

It depends on what games you play with the stock controller. Games like Missle Command. Adventure, Centipede, Space Dungeon, and so fourth where you move a character freely around a screen works well. Gorf, Pitfall, Shamus, and Combat 2 are terrible! I keep falling in the water with the crocodiles in Pitfall. How do you even jump on the crocs head without the joystick moving you to fall in. Gorf moves too fast and you seem to run evertime into the missles. There is Gorf hack that fixes that though. Shamus is a game converted by classics that without a selfcentering joystick you keep running smack into the walls. I cant even keep the tank from moving in Combat 2. Now also know that both of my Atari 5200 controllers were replaced with the newer circuits and the gold dots or whatever. But the joystick still is a noncentering nuisance at times. I have no problem playing Pacman with it though as some people do. I tried every excuse to keep using the stock controllers until I finally broke down and got a Wico Command stick! Wow! What a difference! Not only is it still analog, it is self centering with the option to take it off. The controllers are nice looking. Red and Black! Some people may stick to the stock controllers just because of the authenticity. But the Wico's look like the old Atari 2600 controllers in a way. So it still looks authentic.

 

 

Question...

 

The self centering locks on the Wico. Is there a piece that goes in there to keep the controllers locked?

[JB]

I apologize for being unclear. I am trying to say that the 5200 stock joystick's domination of the HSC does not necessarily prove that it doesn't suck. There are other possible explanations for it, some of which were provided in your post. All in all, my feelings on the matter were summed up quite succinctly (with more clarity and eloquence than I can hope to muster) in Jess Ragan's post. What he said.

Then we're in complete agreement.

Sorry for jumping on you. Was in a bit of a rush, and that last part crossed the line.

 

I even agree wholeheartedly with Jess' statements.

I generally like the things from a gameplay standpoint, but the reliability of a stock 5200 controller is somewhere between abysmal and appalling. It's kept me from recommending the 5200 to people before.