NES vs 7800

[DracIsBack]

In terms of extra hardware for the NES, audio hardware only got added to the FamiCom carts. The NES, unfortunately, had the extra audio wires located in the expansion port on the box-shaped unit and disabled altogether on the top-loader. So in comparison to the audio capabilities of the American and European systems, the 7800 COULD have a technical advantage since you could use virtually any external audio chip.

 

 

Shame Jacky had no interest in that. Only two use POKEY (Ballblazer and Commando) and only one uses POKEY and TIA for sound (Commando).

[gdement]

In terms of extra hardware for the NES, audio hardware only got added to the FamiCom carts. The NES, unfortunately, had the extra audio wires located in the expansion port on the box-shaped unit and disabled altogether on the top-loader. So in comparison to the audio capabilities of the American and European systems, the 7800 COULD have a technical advantage since you could use virtually any external audio chip.

 

 

Shame Jacky had no interest in that. Only two use POKEY (Ballblazer and Commando) and only one uses POKEY and TIA for sound (Commando).

 

I imagine Ballblazer's POKEY was motivated by the fact that the music code had already been written for the A8, so by putting a POKEY in the 7800 cart they could save some money on development. Not sure if they saved enough to pay for the chips, but it probably made the idea an easier sell to the boss. The fact they didn't do anything with the TIA was probably just another convenience - the sound was already worked out for POKEY.

 

 

I'm a little confused about the NES sound chip issue. I remember reading somewhere that SMB3 uses an extra chip to generate some drum sounds. It's been a long time since I was cleaning mine, but I remember it *does* have an extra chip besides the mapper (not that I claim to know what it does). Is this "drum chip" a false rumor?

[NightSprinter]

I don't think so, but the cartridge could've had some sample RAM that would've been used for playback. Remember the NES sound hardware had a fifth digital PCM channel that could be used for drum samples, voices, and other purposes.

[rockfistus]

Still trying to decide if I should pick up Spellcaster again. That game was DAMN hard!

 

Spellcaster rules.

[rockfistus]

I'm a little confused about the NES sound chip issue. I remember reading somewhere that SMB3 uses an extra chip to generate some drum sounds. It's been a long time since I was cleaning mine, but I remember it *does* have an extra chip besides the mapper (not that I claim to know what it does). Is this "drum chip" a false rumor?

 

I think you're right but my memory isn't too clear now. The only game I know of for the NES that has reggae Steel Drums and whatnot in the music is Super Mario 3, normally the most digitized sound you hear out of the NES is a car-horn in Paperboy or the cheesy drums in Super C(I like 'em.)

Edited March 9, 2008 by rockfistus

[NightSprinter]

Aside from shooters and arcade ports, what genres could show the strengths of the 7800's architecture?

[gdement]

Aside from shooters and arcade ports, what genres could show the strengths of the 7800's architecture?

Though there's only a limited number of games to judge by, it appears the 7800 is pretty good at handling pseudo-3D.

 

I think the MSX computer library may have some gems for porting to the 7800. I don't have first hand experience with that system, but I've seen some videos people have posted on youtube. Many MSX games were significantly altered by the time they got ported to the NES, leaving the original versions largely unknown to people outside Japan. I think a lot of people would get excited about a 7800 port of Vampire Killer, for example.

 

MSX games generally avoid scrolling, because that system apparently has some serious problems with it (much worse than the 7800). It doesn't appear to me that the 7800 would have any problem recreating MSX graphics (or better). Assuming an AY-3-8910 were employed in the cartridge, then the sound could be exactly the same plus TIA effects.

[DracIsBack]

Though there's only a limited number of games to judge by, it appears the 7800 is pretty good at handling pseudo-3D.

 

I always wondered if this is why there are so many damn flight simulators in such a limited library! I never got why these would be on a console without a keyboard at all, let alone repeatedly.

 

I wish that RESCUE ON FRACTALUS was finished. Also, maybe someone could take a stab at a SPACE HARRIER conversion, once that Atari 8 version (which is AWESOME BTW) is complete.

 

I think a lot of people would get excited about a 7800 port of Vampire Killer, for example.

 

I would - for obvious reasons.

[rockfistus]

Aye!

[phonedork]

I think the sound is awesome on the SMS.

 

I didn't think it was bad at all. Just didn't get the "technical superiority" over the NES that a number of folks claim.

 

I haven't noticed a lot of flicker in anything

 

I have but that's because it bugs me. You are correct though in that the 16-bit translations (ie. Ghouls and Ghosts, Moonwalker etc) had it more.

 

Like you, I felt that Rampage was awesome on the SMS. At the same time, I didn't feel that Rampage was done well on the NES or 7800 and think it could have been done significantly better on both. Especially when I played the Tandy Co Co version.

 

In the case of Double Dragon, I actually don't consider it to be one of the SMS's showcases. I find the control sluggish, the people small, the colors badly chosen etc. It was closer to the arcade than the NES version, but I actually found the NES version to be more polished as a game. I expected more from the SMS version (ala Rampage) than was received.

 

Also, I've long felt that (like Rampage), the 7800 DD was kind of half-assed. It was fun (IMO), but looks rushed. Definitely not a polished job like Commando was on the 7800 ... or Xenophobe or Klax. I had issue with most of Imagineering/Absolute's titles though. The same guys also did Fight Night, Touchdown Football and other crappy conversions. Ikari Warriors was the only one I really liked, and even that paled compared to COMMANDO in my eyes.

 

I actually do agree that the SMS has the best graphics of the 8-bit consoles, though I do think the "technical superiority" is sometimes overstated. I definitely don't compare it to the TG-16.

 

As an aside, what are your favorite SMS games? I had a round of Golden Axe Warrior last weekend and am re-acquainting myself with other SMS games. Still trying to decide if I should pick up Spellcaster again. That game was DAMN hard!

 

 

Actually....

 

I believe the SMS was WAY better in terms of sound when it used the FM chip that the Japanese version was using. You like Phantasy Star? Play the Japanese version and you will hear the difference. The Japanese version used the FM chip. Some games used the FM chip or whatever it is called. The american SMS never used it and that is why the sound was terrible. I also think the Japanese version of Double Dragon may also use the FM chip in its import Japanese version. I could be wrong. I also personally like the Double Dragon on the SMS more then the Nintendo. I hate the one on the 7800. Its really bad. But thats my opinion Drac! I know you love yo 7800!

[phonedork]

I think the sound is awesome on the SMS.

 

I didn't think it was bad at all. Just didn't get the "technical superiority" over the NES that a number of folks claim.

 

I haven't noticed a lot of flicker in anything

 

I have but that's because it bugs me. You are correct though in that the 16-bit translations (ie. Ghouls and Ghosts, Moonwalker etc) had it more.

 

Like you, I felt that Rampage was awesome on the SMS. At the same time, I didn't feel that Rampage was done well on the NES or 7800 and think it could have been done significantly better on both. Especially when I played the Tandy Co Co version.

 

In the case of Double Dragon, I actually don't consider it to be one of the SMS's showcases. I find the control sluggish, the people small, the colors badly chosen etc. It was closer to the arcade than the NES version, but I actually found the NES version to be more polished as a game. I expected more from the SMS version (ala Rampage) than was received.

 

Also, I've long felt that (like Rampage), the 7800 DD was kind of half-assed. It was fun (IMO), but looks rushed. Definitely not a polished job like Commando was on the 7800 ... or Xenophobe or Klax. I had issue with most of Imagineering/Absolute's titles though. The same guys also did Fight Night, Touchdown Football and other crappy conversions. Ikari Warriors was the only one I really liked, and even that paled compared to COMMANDO in my eyes.

 

I actually do agree that the SMS has the best graphics of the 8-bit consoles, though I do think the "technical superiority" is sometimes overstated. I definitely don't compare it to the TG-16.

 

As an aside, what are your favorite SMS games? I had a round of Golden Axe Warrior last weekend and am re-acquainting myself with other SMS games. Still trying to decide if I should pick up Spellcaster again. That game was DAMN hard!

 

 

PS....

 

I beat Spell Caster a long time ago! It is a great game. Also did you know Mystic Defender on the Genesis is its sequel?

[NightSprinter]

Aside from shooters and arcade ports, what genres could show the strengths of the 7800's architecture?

Though there's only a limited number of games to judge by, it appears the 7800 is pretty good at handling pseudo-3D.

 

I think the MSX computer library may have some gems for porting to the 7800. I don't have first hand experience with that system, but I've seen some videos people have posted on youtube. Many MSX games were significantly altered by the time they got ported to the NES, leaving the original versions largely unknown to people outside Japan. I think a lot of people would get excited about a 7800 port of Vampire Killer, for example.

 

MSX games generally avoid scrolling, because that system apparently has some serious problems with it (much worse than the 7800). It doesn't appear to me that the 7800 would have any problem recreating MSX graphics (or better). Assuming an AY-3-8910 were employed in the cartridge, then the sound could be exactly the same plus TIA effects.

 

The main reason why MSX games (mostly MSX1) avoided scrolling was because of the graphics hardware used. It was mostly the same chip used in the ColecoVision and the TI-99/4A. I think it got a lot better when the MSX2 came out (in addition to having a greater color palette). I'm sure the MSX2 and up's graphics chip could handle scrolling rather well.

 

The big challenge in porting over any MSX game would be mostly in the fact that you'll have to convert Z80 code over to 6502 code.

[Godzilla]

i don't think there is any real way to say, since imho, the 7800 never even hit second gen in its software. The nes, of course, hit that sweet 'fourth gen' when they really start pushing the system. That said, imho, if the 7800 had ever hit it's second, third, etc. gen of software, I think it would have spanked the nes. Like the 2600, I think the 7800 is more open and less limited than the nes in terms of hardware and is instead more the result of good coding. it really needs a pokey, for sound, tho.

[ZylonBane]

i don't think there is any real way to say, since imho, the 7800 never even hit second gen in its software.

Of course it did. The intial gang of ten (Asteroids, Ms Pac-Man, Robotron, Joust, etc) were the first-gen efforts. Stuff like Midnight Mutants, MotorPsycho, Alien Brigade, Scrapyard Dog, etc represented at least second-gen coding knowledge.

 

Of course, the biggest problem facing 7800 development was lack of money and tools. The graphic potential of the 7800 was well beyond the 2600/5200 era where a sufficiently versatile programmer could do a decent job designing the visuals. Very few 7800 games looked like they had an actual artist involved. And most of them looked like the art was drawn on an 8-bit Atari running MicroIllustrator.

[DracIsBack]

i don't think there is any real way to say, since imho, the 7800 never even hit second gen in its software.

Of course it did. The intial gang of ten (Asteroids, Ms Pac-Man, Robotron, Joust, etc) were the first-gen efforts. Stuff like Midnight Mutants, MotorPsycho, Alien Brigade, Scrapyard Dog, etc represented at least second-gen coding knowledge.

 

They were newer, but, in many cases, they were also the first titles by those companies. Midnight Mutants was Radioactive's only 7800 game and I'm pretty sure Alien Brigade was Ken Grant's only title. Had they done "seconds", I would have loved to have seen the result. I agree with your poinys about money/dev time and tools.

 

Sadly, some of the developers that did work on several generations of games weren't very good ... either at the beginning or end. Absolute Entertainment/Imagitec comes to mind. The did stuff like FIGHT NIGHT early on and they closed out with stuff like SENTINEL (gag).

Edited April 19, 2008 by DracIsBack

[Godzilla]

Especially considering the gulf of time and atari's half-hearted 'well nintendos making money' feelings towards the red-headed bastard step-child that is the 7800, I don't feel there is any compelling argument for the scant trickle of games that petered out before the system died as any evidence of second generation coding. Quite conversely, I feel the original games coded for the 7800 represent the pinnacle of it's brief life.

 

Those new protos might be evidence of at least a second gen-to-come that never happened...

[NightSprinter]

Yeah, just judging from the screenshots alone seems to indicate that the games could've really shown the power of the 7800. It's just a damn shame the system was put to rest so early.

[CV Gus]

Well, to figure out just what the 7800 could have done, you could look at the games that did exist:

 

Xevious- Never, in the now two decades I've had this game, have I ever seen any choppy scrolling or flickering, no matter how much action is occurring on-screen. Even when the huge mothership is attacking, too. I hear about glitching up, but I've never seen it. It always runs perfectly.

 

Robotron: 2084- Although the 5200 has better explosions, sounds, and the border, this is a matter of programming- the fact remains that the 7800 is handling the on-screen movement much better than the good, but choppier, 5200 version. Plus, it has the color GREEN on it. I think a CV version of this game would have equaled or exceeded the 5200 version, by the by.

 

Tower Toppler. Animated enemies. The entire screen moving to produce the illusion of character movement. The way the bricks shrink as you "go around" the "sides" (the tower is cylindrical, remember). The way things gradually appear or disappear around the sides. The way things speed up or slow down based on their motion AND yours. The intermissions! THIS was a game that said "the 7800 is fourth-generation, like the NES."

 

Joust. First-generation, all good. Except maybe the pterydactyl...

 

Midnight Mutants. Look at the creepy graphics.

 

Clearly, except for the sounds, the 7800 was really good. Its ability to handle on-screen motion exceeded even the SMS, the graphics were very good- but they just never brought it all together enough. Sirius shows us the 7800 that could've been.

 

It was boneheaded leadership that did in the 7800. can you say "Tramiels?" Grrrrr....

[ZylonBane]

Tower Toppler. Animated enemies. The entire screen moving to produce the illusion of character movement. The way the bricks shrink as you "go around" the "sides" (the tower is cylindrical, remember). The way things gradually appear or disappear around the sides. The way things speed up or slow down based on their motion AND yours.

Everything you describe here is the result of good art and programming, and practically nothing at all to do with the 7800's technical abilities. This game was ported pretty much unchanged to almost every computer and game console of the period, remember?

 

Thanks for the laugh at "The way things speed up or slow down based on their motion AND yours", anyway. Yeah, wow, the power of the 7800 allows ADDING TWO NUMBERS. Incredible!

[CV Gus]

Oh, there's much more to it than that- when you combine EVERYTHING that has to be happening (ask any homebrewer if it's as simple as you imply). Hadn't you noticed how utterly flawless it all was? This was at a time when many "experts" questioned whether or not the 7800 was even a fourth-generation system.

 

When you consider everything, it's probable that Gauntlet on the 7800 would have been better than on the NES. Again, that ability to handle massive on-screen movement.

 

The NES and SMS had massive investment in R&D behind them, which is how we got those later games, such as Super Mario Bros. 3 and the later Castlevania games. The 2600 also had that, which is why the games for the same system were so much more advanced in 1982 than in 1978.

 

No, the 7800 had what it took- but a skilled wimp with a one-shot pistol from 1770 can beat a stupid Rambo. And the Tramiels weren't Rambo, smart or dumb. Just plain dumb. And the NES was no wimp. That situation was more like a skilled Rambo against a stupid wimp who didn't even load the pistol...

 

I think you'll agree that if the Tramiels had run a desert, they couldn't have found sand.

Edited April 26, 2008 by CV Gus

[Atarifever]

I'm a little girl.

 

That "good art and programming" line is stupid. By that logic good art and programming could have put Gran Tourismo on the 2600 and no one would be impressed. Yeah, the system could handle a fairly graphically complex game that was also possible on home computers. Does that somehow mean it was underpowered? Sure it wasn't only possible because it was on the 7800, but it was at least of the quality of a computer or NES game.

Edited April 26, 2008 by Atarifever

[guyjin]

I think the MSX computer library may have some gems for porting to the 7800. I don't have first hand experience with that system, but I've seen some videos people have posted on youtube. Many MSX games were significantly altered by the time they got ported to the NES, leaving the original versions largely unknown to people outside Japan. I think a lot of people would get excited about a 7800 port of Vampire Killer, for example.

 

This is a common misconception; Vampire Killer came after Castlevania(akumajou dracula), not before. They did what they did to it on the MSX to 'shoehorn' it in.

 

 

That said, a lot of other Konami (and other companies') goodies came out on MSX first. Just not that one.

[Vigo]

I'm a little confused about the NES sound chip issue. I remember reading somewhere that SMB3 uses an extra chip to generate some drum sounds. It's been a long time since I was cleaning mine, but I remember it *does* have an extra chip besides the mapper (not that I claim to know what it does). Is this "drum chip" a false rumor?

 

It's a false rumour, the NES can play Delta PCM compressed samples using DMA.Lots of games use it for drums, some for speech, like the 1984 game "Wild Gunman".

 

 

Here is a better example of speech:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci_Z7n7kBpw...feature=related

[gdement]

It's a false rumour, the NES can play Delta PCM compressed samples using DMA.Lots of games use it for drums, some for speech, like the 1984 game "Wild Gunman".

 

What is that extra chip for? I wish I had my cart open to get the number off it, but I know there was an extra chip in there. I think it was surface mounted, unlike everything else.

I guess it could be a RAM chip. Since the buses are separate I guess they couldn't just use a CHR_RAM (if I have the terminology right...)

 

I do remember the NES has a PCM channel though, so your explanation makes more sense. Just confused about that extra chip. It's the only game I've seen it in.

[Underball]

For the simple fact that the NES was the first video game system in my memory to up and die on people in massive numbers (blinking led, no carts work) I never wanted a NES. In all my years of owning a Coleco Gemini, 2 7800's, a Sega Master System, Genesis Model 1, Sega CD, 32X, PS1, 3d0, PS2, and a PSP, I've never had a system up and die on me. Not once. Sure, a few carts here or there got fubared or CD's scratched, but not a whole system, nevermind the fact that nearly every kid I knew who had a NES had gone through several of them due to them dying so often.

 

It just always seemed like a cheap piece of junk with terrible flickering graphics and cutesy little kids games to me.