Shaun.Bebbington Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 I was wondering how feasible it was to release any number of these excellent homebrew games that have been recently released or are currently in development onto real media such as cassette tape or floppy diskette? I gather that it's fairly easy to transfer Speccy games to tape, and I know it's easy to do on the C64/128, VIC-20 and C16/+4. Regards, Shaun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 I was wondering how feasible it was to release any number of these excellent homebrew games that have been recently released or are currently in development onto real media such as cassette tape or floppy diskette? I gather that it's fairly easy to transfer Speccy games to tape, and I know it's easy to do on the C64/128, VIC-20 and C16/+4. Can't comment about disk since we simply didn't look into it, but Sack got Reaxion working as a tape image a while ago; the problem was that, even with the compression, it had an eighteen minute loading time and he never got around to composing loading music long enough to fill that space! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 TMR... ehm... Fastloader? Turbo Tape? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Having worked for a commercial outfit years ago, I think I still have the NovaLoad mastering system for the C-64 around somewhere (although finding my X-1541 might be a different matter). As for Atari stuff, with a stock drive you can "turbo" it to maybe a 15% increase by using bigger blocksizes and speeding up the baud rate. And, there's always CAS2WAV for people with no APE or Atari disk drives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 ah. sorry. TMR ment the Atari Reaxion... simple question...what is the reason why there is no "real turbo tape" for the 1010? What about the turbo2000 system used in Poland & Czech? but as far as I remember it needed a special hardware? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 ah. sorry. TMR ment the Atari Reaxion... simple question...what is the reason why there is no "real turbo tape" for the 1010? Because you apparently can't up the transfer rate from software - at least that was the consensus when i asked about it here, wasn't it? The A8 port of Reaxion is now the only complete version that hasn't been mastered to real media, both the C64 ports were done ages ago, the Plus/4 version has a nice tape turbo, RGCD put out the GBA port on real cartridges for a while... but i don't want to just dump the thing to a tape and leave people waiting for twenty minutes in silence, that'd be crap. What about the turbo2000 system used in Poland & Czech? but as far as I remember it needed a special hardware? It has to work on everything, otherwise there wasn't much point in me making sure the game ran on a 48K CTIA-based machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 TMR... well...a simple turbo system can be done... copy OS to RAM...patch the CIO routines (baudrate) and that's all, voila little turbo tape like... or do you mean 20 minutes vs 18 minutes is not worth? but why the hell on tape? most atari guys have a 1050... don't tell me that the UK ones do have only 1010... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 check out CASENTER at $eb9d... there are the cassette routines where POKEY is set to 600 baud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Yeah, but the two tone frequencies are locked in the tape deck. That really limits what you can do without getting out a soldering iron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun.Bebbington Posted February 14, 2008 Author Share Posted February 14, 2008 but why the hell on tape? most atari guys have a 1050... don't tell me that the UK ones do have only 1010... Most Atari games that I remember seeing in the shops were either on tape or cartridge, if that answers your question. Like the C64, games on disk were more expensive, so people just made do with casette tape for their games. Regards, Shaun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Philsan Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 I too don't understand the topic's starter question. Why release new games on tape? We have disk drives, SIO2PC, SIO2SD, SIO2USB... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 same why people release CARTS for 2600... it is "real"... I am planning to release Beyond Evil on 5,25 Disc as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Philsan Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 same why people release CARTS for 2600... it is "real"... Yes, I know, but why on tapes instead of floppy disks or cartridges? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 You can do a turbo-save routine without having to modify the OS. All that's needed is a VBI which plugs the AUDF values to raise the baud rate when saving. And, use the SIO entry point ($E459) allows custom block sizes. I did that when I had 64K but no disk drive yet - I put the Assembler-Editor cart image onto tape. It had something like a 1 or 2 block loader, then a tone gap of about 1.5 seconds, then the entire cart image in a single 8K block at higher baud rate. Unsure what the load time was, but it would have been almost as fast as loading DOS, DUP then binary loading an 8K file. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Well, in my collection of software-driven turbo-tape there are at least 3 programs that can speed up your tape recorder: - File-Copier 3.8 (has a red screen; max. buffer = 38 kbytes); can save a file to tape with 800 Baud instead of 600 - Speed-Tape by german magazine Computer Kontakt (written in Basic, so the max. buffer is 32kbytes minus the Speed Tape program itself); can save a file to tape with 1000 Baud instead of the standard 600 Both of these programs do not require special loaders. You save the files to tape with 800 or 1000 Baud and later reload them as you would normally (with START, START+OPTION; or with CLOAD, etc.); I have tested only the File-Copy program once and it worked fine... In a later issue of Computer Kontakt there appeared another program called "CBAUD" by Arnd Baer, it consisted of a copy/file-saver program written in Basic (max. file-buffer under Basic = 32kbytes, under compiled Atari Basic / TB XL up to 37 kbytes) which saved a file with 1200 Baud instead of the standard 600 Baud (but the length of the gaps remained the same of course!) and a file-loader written in ML. To load the CBAUD turbo-tape-files, one required a special loader, that could be saved to tape as a bootprogram (had to be loaded with START+OPTION)... Alas, 37kbytes as the max. buffer to copy / save files in this turbo format is not much and err well, the procedure to a) copy/save the files in turbo format and then b) load them with a special loader (which also had to be loaded from tape first) was quite awkward... In the end, none of these three programs were regularly used. Instead the tape users "switched" to hardware turbo-drives, like the Turbo-6000 system (with 6000 Baud) in the former German Democratic Republic (now East-Germany), the turbo-2000 system (from Poland or Czech Republic with variable baud rate) or the Rambit-Turbo-Tape (from the UK with up to 9600 Baud, sold for a short time by Derek Fern of Micro-Discount)... - Andreas Koch. P.S.: If anyone is interested in these software-driven turbo-tape programs, let me know and I will upload them here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Andreas, please... upload them... Danke! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross PK Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 same why people release CARTS for 2600... it is "real"... Yes, I know, but why on tapes instead of floppy disks or cartridges? Not everyone has a disk drive, but yeah, I guess putting them onto cartridge would be a much better idea, but then again maybe putting a game onto cartridge is more hassle and expensive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun.Bebbington Posted February 16, 2008 Author Share Posted February 16, 2008 I too don't understand the topic's starter question.Why release new games on tape? We have disk drives, SIO2PC, SIO2SD, SIO2USB... www.cronosoft.co.uk I don't understand why people still want to play games on cassette either when there are other options available. But, that's the UK's heritage for you; upgrading any 8-bit isn't done here as a rule. Regards, Shaun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 I too don't understand the topic's starter question.Why release new games on tape? We have disk drives, SIO2PC, SIO2SD, SIO2USB... www.cronosoft.co.uk I don't understand why people still want to play games on cassette either when there are other options available. It's almost part of the nostalgia for a lot of people and, for a fair few more, it's a case of making these new releases more "real"; loading in seconds via an SIO2PC, network link or SD-based system means you simply don't invest as much into a game as a player, users'll give it a couple of goes and move on to the next. Waiting ten or twenty minutes for something to load from tape or having the physical artefact of a cartridge to slap into a machine is a totally different matter, generally speaking people give more time to games on physical media than virtual for that reason. But, that's the UK's heritage for you; upgrading any 8-bit isn't done here as a rule. Writing for upgraded machines marginalises an already small potential audience... that's why my 800XL hasn't seen the light of day, there isn't much point if the games i'm wanting to play all need a 128K RAM as a minimum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Not everyone has a disk drive, but yeah, I guess putting them onto cartridge would be a much better idea, but then again maybe putting a game onto cartridge is more hassle and expensive? Only "maybe"? =-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Psionic Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 (edited) It's almost part of the nostalgia for a lot of people and, for a fair few more, it's a case of making these new releases more "real"; loading in seconds via an SIO2PC, network link or SD-based system means you simply don't invest as much into a game as a player, users'll give it a couple of goes and move on to the next. Waiting ten or twenty minutes for something to load from tape or having the physical artefact of a cartridge to slap into a machine is a totally different matter, generally speaking people give more time to games on physical media than virtual for that reason. If nostalgia is the reason, I think some people are being way too overly nostalgic. 10 or 20 minutes of loading time? I think by the time it loaded up, I'd lose interest in the game altogether. I can understand using cassette tapes in 1982 (when people had no choice)...I can't understand it now. Edited February 16, 2008 by PingvinBlueJeans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fröhn Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 If nostalgia is the reason, I think some people are being way too overly nostalgic. 10 or 20 minutes of loading time? I think by the time it loaded up, I'd lose interest in the game altogether. I can understand using cassette tapes in 1982 (when people had no choice)...I can't understand it now. Many people cannot understand why you use 8 bit computers for the very same reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 I can understand using cassette tapes in 1982 (when people had no choice)...I can't understand it now. Nostalgia is one reason, but not the only one; another example is that some people have 8-bit machines but no means of transfer (i have an Amstrad CPC464 sat on the table in our front room but no way to transfer new games to it), others like having games on real media with nice packaging and so forth in a line on their shelf, there are lots of motivations. But as Frohn said, if we start applying the "i don't understand" logic, we start to get all sorts of questions about producing 8-bit games in the first place. i don't understand why people produce games that only support 128K Atari machines since mine is an 800XL, should they stop doing that because i don't get it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allas Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 i don't understand why people produce games that only support 128K Atari machines since mine is an 800XL, should they stop doing that because i don't get it? I think the most part of the serious Atari users use a 130XE. And not only one. Others have a 800XL with 256K. Maybe, the standard of users, could get a 800XL or have one from his old days, but most of them didn't have SIO2PC or SIO2SD interfaces, so the most part of them use the emulator to see the new productions, and use his own 800XL only for playing old collection diskettes. But in this world of nostalgic, nothing is perfect, even I have a 130XE, many interfaces, but I'm a NTSC user and that means the 50% of new productions doesn't work on my real Atari, so I must to use the emulator. The same thing happens with my old NTSC C128. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 i don't understand why people produce games that only support 128K Atari machines since mine is an 800XL, should they stop doing that because i don't get it? I think the most part of the serious Atari users use a 130XE. And not only one. Others have a 800XL with 256K. A percentage, not all and lets be honest here - do we want to aim stuff just at serious users or at every bugger who can play 'em? i regret not making Reaxion run on NTSC machines now, but at the time i didn't know the first thing and people were nagging to get it released. And i was offering the 128K thing as an example more than anything, i wasn't really looking for an answer; it was supposed to be a parallel to the "why put it on tape" question, explaining that even if someone does something you don't understand they've probably got motives for it. =-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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