Atari Vs C64 --- 80s Computer scene etc chat...

[emkay]

So you need an elaborate PWM routine on Pokey to do a sawtooth waveform, which basically comes for free on SID?

 

POKEY has different possibilites for creating sawtooths and one for creating Triangles. Particular the sawtooth (you hear in the tsttune already) , is a result of the very high clocked POKEY channels (1.79MHz) beeing flangering together. The Result is a Sawtooth wave that reminds about the AdLib wave-creation.

 

You try to achieve things which the SID can do out of the box without any tricks. Is there any CPU time left at all to do something else?

 

At least 1.5x of the C64's cpu speed will be available with that

[Rybags]

Biggest problem with the C-64.

 

It's stuck with that "porthole" of a screen. People that forked out for one of their monitors must have felt a bit ripped off.

 

Sprites in the border are all well and good, but not exactly flexible, and impractical for games (aside from ones in the top/bottom).

 

As for the Atari - well, you can hook it up to a widescreen TV and have a 352x240 screen which uses most of the display area.

[emkay]

Interesting. You want to demonstrate the advantage of the hires colours and for real, you show that even the 1/4 res with 16 shades of grey shows a better depth. The C64 picture suffers by the yellow, red & brown colours breaking the depth of view clearly.

 

spectrum fan level argument again. the c64 ball is more hires and has more colors. nothing more to say

 

It has higher a resolution but not any colour "more".

 

Is there an "original" Picture of this available?

[Oswald]

I never said that pokey is better. Can you give an exact quote from me where I say that?

 

oh then what does this sentence mean:

 

Pokey can in fact do anything SID can do and something more

 

 

it does mean that the pokey is not better? no matter how hard I try it means: pokey can do anything the sid can do and more = better.

 

What I said is that, though SID has always the better QUALITY, the pokey can do everything the SID can EXCEPT the filtering.

 

oh, how about 16 bit pulse widths, the SID's mixed waveforms, 3 channels all with 16 bit frequencies, how about ADSR without cpu intervention ? how about ring mod, sync, filtering coming in signal? the pokey can not do shitloads of things the sid can do.

 

So, maybe you should prove me wrong then: Show that pokey has no:

-ring-modulation

-sync

-pulsewave, (in a controllable fashion)

-sawtooth

-triangle

-etc.

 

 

ah this is getting awesome!!! this is more stupid than any spectrum fan can reach in its wildest dreams

 

but its your turn, now show me the c64 doesnt has:

 

- built in phong shading

- built in gourad shading

- 2000x2000x16m gfx mode

- 256 channel sound

- 6 gigs ram

- hdd ide/sata

- etc

-..

[Oswald]

If you need proof of concept it's your problem. I don't have time to look for examples just to convince you. It's a waste of time. What I stated is based on my own experience with pokey. If you don't believe me, that's your choice, but not my problem.

 

the c64 can do 16million textured polys with a shader. if you need proof of concept its your problem. I dont have the time to look for examples just to convince you. It's a waste of time. What I stated is based on my own experience with c64. If you don't believe me, that's your choice, but not my problem.

[emkay]

What I'm "Trying to say":

 

2 x 16 colours at "8bit" resolution:

Those pictures look really impressive.

 

 

Well, those are only reduced Photos. Just for showing what it means to have 16 colours fully available for an image.

Possibly, you can reach good results when showing them on a plus 4

 

Regarding the mp3, I have problems with the off pitch notes, which really hurt.

 

Please read my previously written post.

[Vigo]

So you need an elaborate PWM routine on Pokey to do a sawtooth waveform, which basically comes for free on SID?

 

POKEY has different possibilites for creating sawtooths and one for creating Triangles. Particular the sawtooth (you hear in the tsttune already) , is a result of the very high clocked POKEY channels (1.79MHz) beeing flangering together. The Result is a Sawtooth wave that reminds about the AdLib wave-creation.

 

So you need more than one channel to create a sawtooth? Sounds to me like amplitude modulation.

 

At least 1.5x of the C64's cpu speed will be available with that

 

You don't understand what I mean. In order to recreate things on Pokey which come for free on SID, you need help from the software to emulate those things (like the envelopes), which takes CPU cycles.

 

Btw, I recommend this site here for posting sound examples: http://www.6581-8580.com/

This crazy man recorded more than 100.000 tunes on the original machine!

Edited April 26, 2008 by Vigo

[Oswald]

Well, after 5 Years of trying to put people together, doing something better in pokey sound exploration, the only thing that really happened was that emkay found ways of making demonstrations by using extensiv tricks via multiple roundabout ways.

 

http://www.phys.uu.nl/~bpos/cyb/cyb.mp3

 

If you've checked it already in the Hardsynth thread, you might recognize that the sound vary manifold on the different emulations. So to "fine tune" this sounds of the main voice is more like "look into the future" than to adjust them for the real machine But the result was better than I expected.

 

horribly detuned its hurts to listen to it sorry. the sounds are really good for the pokey, but the detuning hurts so much man its hard to bear it. and even with the relatively good sounds for a pokey doesnt sounds anything near to a sid.. proves analplexers stupid statements wrong. (sid can do anything a pokey can)

[Heaven/TQA]

Oslwald testvérem... emkay is not a musician so 99% know that his tunes are "detuned" but he is right that at the moment we do not have a native or pc based pokey tracker to utilisise the possibilities via software. that's simply because the atari scene is nearly non-active...

[jdh]

Oswald you are scarily passionate about the C64, bordering on obsessive coming here to an Atari stronghold to fight an un-winnable argument.

 

But I am curious about the C64, i'd like to know what is considered THE demo on the C64, like we have Numen on the A8, do you perhaps have a youtube link to the most famous C64 demo?

 

I wanna see if the C64 has 'mojo' baby

[TMR]

Is there an "original" Picture of this available?

 

That is the original, it was drawn by Mirage/Focus.

[Oswald]

What I'm "Trying to say":

 

2 x 16 colours at "8bit" resolution:

Those pictures look really impressive.

 

 

Well, those are only reduced Photos. Just for showing what it means to have 16 colours fully available for an image.

Possibly, you can reach good results when showing them on a plus 4

 

yeah and this is what the c64 can do, tho this is not a reduced photo like your one:

 

[Heaven/TQA]

jdh...

 

http://www.c64.ch/

 

and look at the charts...

[Oswald]

Oslwald testvérem... emkay is not a musician so 99% know that his tunes are "detuned" but he is right that at the moment we do not have a native or pc based pokey tracker to utilisise the possibilities via software. that's simply because the atari scene is nearly non-active...

 

 

you dont need to be a musician to make a non detuned music. (atleast thats how it works on the c64) you have the exact formula that what value is what musical tone and thats about it....

[emkay]

horribly detuned its hurts to listen to it sorry. the sounds are really good for the pokey, but the detuning hurts so much man its hard to bear it. and even with the relatively good sounds for a pokey doesnt sounds anything near to a sid.. proves analplexers stupid statements wrong. (sid can do anything a pokey can)

 

Referring to "detuning" .... the interesting thing .... that most "sweet" sounding C64 tunes are detuned aswell. The pitch is mostly set too high. Often you hear tunes playing the note "A" and "B" together somewhere in between played.

Rob Hubbard (for example) managed to make the music always pitch correct.

People also say that the YM in the ST pplays wrong, but hardware cannot play wrong note-pitches, except you want to do so.

 

And, as I wrote before: The emulation is all but good, so one cannot fully adjust the correct pitch within the RMT I'm using.

Btw: Not all of the demo-tune is detuned. What's really disturbing: The tune always stops for a short while (2 VBI Cycles) and the portamentos are very handycapped when doing such experiments.

 

I guess, on the Sid you can say : Play note c2 then play c3 and make it via portamento. In RMT the portamento plays c2 then c2(+) - c3.

[emkay]

crap deleted

 

 

Can someone check whether Oswald is online or some crazy guy hacked his account?

[TMR]

Oswald you are scarily passionate about the C64, bordering on obsessive coming here to an Atari stronghold to fight an un-winnable argument.

 

It's never stopped me previously, i've been here and arguing with emkay for years now. =-)

 

But I am curious about the C64, i'd like to know what is considered THE demo on the C64, like we have Numen on the A8, do you perhaps have a youtube link to the most famous C64 demo?

 

That's a bit like asking "what's the best car" really... there isn't a single demo to point at because there are a lot of demos doing incredible things (some of which you have to know why they're incredible, of course! =-) But a few random examples (and seriously, these are YouTube links but get the real deal down and fire it through an emulator) are the one that Oswald was involved in, the conversion of Desert Dream (

and

), Cycle by Booze Design or Crest's Deus Ex Machina (part 1 and part 2). But that's just three, i could go on for hours.

[Allas]

That's why the speccy had a faster proccessor (4 mhz z80) to compensate for the lack of graphics hardware

 

2Mhz 6502 is equivalent to 4Mhz Z80. Even sometimes better, if we consider the real direct translate coding of last games JET SET WILLY or JET PACK.

[emkay]

you dont need to be a musician to make a non detuned music. (atleast thats how it works on the c64) you have the exact formula that what value is what musical tone and thats about it....

 

That's why the SID is a real Synthesizer chip and POKEY is not.

 

I'm really pissed to repeat it in every forum we meet: The A8 is not the C64 and vice versa. So, many solutions have to be solved in a fully different way.

For having good music on the SID, just use the synth... On the A8 you have to do some software routines for it.

Similar to this, you have to produce a 2x2 or 4x4 mode in software, while on the A8 you simply can use one.

Where SID is using his envelop capabilities, ANTIC can store graphics data to give the CPU some more time for doing other things.

 

Well, I saw some C64 demos saying "it is not how it is done. It is what you get".

 

But this rule seems only allowed for the C64 , Oswald?

[emkay]

That's why the speccy had a faster proccessor (4 mhz z80) to compensate for the lack of graphics hardware

 

2Mhz 6502 is equivalent to 4Mhz Z80. Even sometimes better, if we consider the real direct translate coding of last games JET SET WILLY or JET PACK.

 

Not in all regards. It seems the 16Bit (copy) command(s) are rather fast, but the Z80 needs a lot of Cycle wasting until it gets there.

[Allas]

Well, the balloon c64 image is 255 colors indexed, so is a interlaced screen.

 

Nope, it's a sixteen colour non-interlaced image... i have a 16 colour bitmap if you want it?

 

Send to the post, please

[emkay]

It's never stopped me previously, i've been here and arguing with emkay for years now. =-)

 

Let's talk about the AMIGA, perhaps we can become friends somtimes, then

[Oswald]

That's why the speccy had a faster proccessor (4 mhz z80) to compensate for the lack of graphics hardware

 

2Mhz 6502 is equivalent to 4Mhz Z80. Even sometimes better, if we consider the real direct translate coding of last games JET SET WILLY or JET PACK.

 

I dont think so. for example a 16 bit addition takes up more instructions on the 6510 as than on the z80. while you can manipulate 16bits as one with the z80 you have to broke it down to 8 bits on 6510, which is a very big disadvantage. not to speak about the more registers AND two register sets. z80 is a much better cpu than the 6510.

Edited April 26, 2008 by Oswald

[Oswald]

I'm really pissed to repeat it in every forum we meet: The A8 is not the C64 and vice versa.

 

oh, thanks for clearing me up

[emkay]

I dont think so. for example a 16 bit addition takes up more instructions on the 6510 as than on the z80. while you can manipulate 16bits as one with the z80 you have to broke it down to 8 bits on 6510, which is a very big disadvantage. not to speak about the more registers AND two register sets. z80 is a much better cpu than the 6510.

 

The main advantage of the Z80 is the memory saving by using shorter command orders.

 

http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=50002

 

The small demo uses the twister effect based on a Spectrum version. It is fully graphically animated. The resolution is about 320x239 and it does even more... but it wasn't possible to have the effect as small as the Speccy version.

 

Have a look at the comment of "factor6"....