PBI’s ECI’s, 800 expander port and XE Mobo’s

[carmel_andrews]

Following on from the various threads relating to MIO and the recent thread about the 400 got me thinking about the above subjects

 

Firstly relating to the xl’s PBI port…I’m just curious as to whether it’s only ‘single device’ compatible or multi device compatible (assuming that the device originally attached to the PBI port has a pbi connector as well and that the pbi device you want to connect to the first pbi device also has a pbi connector to connect to the first pbi device)

 

If the PBI port is ‘multi device’ compatible (i.e. daisy chaining like Atari sio)…do PBI device rely on the xl’s internal power to power the pbi devices or can pbi devices contain their own external power source…so that your’e not putting a load on the xl’s power supply

 

Also, did the 1200/1400/1450 also feature a PBI (or were’nt it introduced till the 6/800xl come along)…though I do recall hearing that the built in disk drives used on the 1450 were ‘PBI devices’

 

I’ve heard several people mentioning that the 800 (I assume 400 as well) featured an expander port….was it user accessible or did you have to bastardise/cannibalise the 800/400 case to get at it…was it software compatible with the PBI…did it work the same way as PBI

 

Now, getting onto the XE’s ECI and XE mobo’s

 

Not trying to ‘diss’ the xe here, but I am trying to understand tramiel’s logic in the xe having ECI

 

Firstly I understand that an ECI is a ‘cut down’ version of the XL’s PBI, apparently some of the address/data lines or signals on PBI were ‘duplicated’ (whatever that mean’s…sorry I’m not a tech head) hence the difference in the connector size

 

The thing is, from a manufacturing and production viewpoint, surely it most cost ‘as much’ or even more to design and manufacture a ‘totally new’ expansion port (ECI) rather then stick with putting PBI into an XE…remembering the tramiel philosophy of ‘penny pinching’…secondly, we also remember that there wasn’t exactly overwhelming support for PBI anyway…At the time, the 1064 was the only official/unofficial device that used the PBI port (as well as unreleased jobbies like the CPM box and 1090 expansion)…So…where was the logic in designing/manufacturing a totally new interface then the one it was based on wasn’t getting either official support or 3rd party support…for the life of me I can’t see the logic in the ECI…Tramiel could have saved a lot of money and just stuck in PBI and start pushing that more

 

Also from a consumer point of view, unless you know how to convert an eci connector to PBi and visa versa…consumers were’nt going to put up with paying extra for their PBi or ECI devices just so you could use your eci device on an xl or a pbi device on an xe and not forgetting the companies/individuals actually producing PBI/ECI devices…it means they either have to do a new version of their PBI/ECI device for the other computer or make the consumer pay extra for a pbi-eci convertor/connector…remembering ofcourse that the xe was untried in the market and that the PBI was largely unsupported (officially or 3rd party)…or perhaps I’m not understanding or have missed something

 

Whilst I know that the ECI/PBI need different connectors…are they programmed the same way (i.e software compatible)

 

I seem to remember that the original 65xe (US version) didn’t feature the ECI port whereas the 130xe (US version) did (I’m guessing/assuming that both m/c’s where released at the same time)

 

The question is…did tramiel use 2 different motherboards for the 65 and 130 initially …i.e one with and one without eci (which would have gone against his policy of ‘penny pinching’) or did tramiel use the same motherboard for both m/c’s but make the 65xe without the extra hole at the back (which wouldn’t have cost him any more money to put the hole there) therefore making the eci port on the 65 not user accessible

 

Now I don’t now about XE’s sold in mainland Europe but I did notice that all 65 and 130xe’s in the UK used the same motherboard (the 130xe one), only difference was the 65 had empty ram sockets

[Rybags]

The ECI (meaning the extra connector for the scope of this) doesn't need the Data Bus (8 lines) and the cart port has both that and most of the address lines (A0-A14), so they were able to considerably reduce duplication.

 

So far as cost goes - it means they could make the mainboard smaller and less complex, which probably equated to more than the cosmetic differences you notice from the outside of the machine.

 

As far as the whole expandability thing goes - of course the balls-up there was that they never really properly followed through with the goods - it was left up to third party companies and individuals to bother with that.

Edited June 24, 2008 by Rybags

[machf]

First, the ECI, AFAIK, was basically the PBI minus the signal lines that were also featured in the standard cartridge port - thus its location next to it, so that they could be used together if needed. Check the XL/XE edition of Mapping the Atari. Basically, ECI+Cartridge port = PBI.

 

Second, I think the ECI-less 65XEs may have had the electronics removed but kept the motherboard... in any case, it's cheaper to manufacture a board with fewer things on it.

 

Third, the PBI was virtually unused after all those years of having been created, so changing the design wasn't a big issue regarding adapter compatibility.

 

EDIT: heh, Rybags just beat me to it - what he's saying is almost the same.

Edited June 24, 2008 by machf

[MEtalGuy66]

Machf- The ECI bus is fully functional on 65XEs that have it. They are essentially a 130XE with the second bank of ram unpopulated, and the EMMU chip left off. 800XEs are the same thing..

 

Carmel- Get a life..

[Fletch]

I'm not sure why, but the obvious friction between Metal Guy and Carmel is pure genius. I'd like to arrange a boxing match.

[Mathy]

Hello guys

 

Well. Metalguy is very good at electronics, while Carmel is probably very good at something that has nothing to do with technology. That doesn't make either of them any better or worse then the other.

 

Problem is, that if you tend to be very much like either one of them, it's sometimes hard to understand the other one/the other side of the spectrum. I've meet both sides of the spectrum both inside and outside the Atari 8 bit scene. It sometimes makes things hard to explain. And sometimes the umpteened question might raise the hair on your back. But such is live.

 

I've seen/heard somebody ask herself, why the characters on a piece of paper didn't turn out to be white, although she was sure she selected white for those characters on her laptop. She'ld put a red piece of paper in the printer. Me: "There's no white ink in the printer". She: "Can't the printer mix that somehow?".

 

Some people are technically inclined, some aren't.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy

[Fletch]

Mathy,

 

I understand the dynamic which is why I find it entertaining. Carmel has a lot of zeal about all things Atari and MetalGuy has electronics knowledge to spare.

 

Carmel likes to ask a lot of what if type questions and MetalGuy is a realist.

 

It seems to me they both enjoy jabbing at each other. I'm not sure if either is mean spirited or not, but it makes me laugh for some reason.

 

So to Carmel and MetalGuy, keep on keeping on. I love it.

 

Fletch

 

 

 

Hello guys

 

Well. Metalguy is very good at electronics, while Carmel is probably very good at something that has nothing to do with technology. That doesn't make either of them any better or worse then the other.

 

Problem is, that if you tend to be very much like either one of them, it's sometimes hard to understand the other one/the other side of the spectrum. I've meet both sides of the spectrum both inside and outside the Atari 8 bit scene. It sometimes makes things hard to explain. And sometimes the umpteened question might raise the hair on your back. But such is live.

 

I've seen/heard somebody ask herself, why the characters on a piece of paper didn't turn out to be white, although she was sure she selected white for those characters on her laptop. She'ld put a red piece of paper in the printer. Me: "There's no white ink in the printer". She: "Can't the printer mix that somehow?".

 

Some people are technically inclined, some aren't.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy

[+CharlieChaplin]

Well,

afaik cart + ECI on the XE is almost like PBI on the XL, there are 3 signals missing however.

 

For the XL PBI we have the Black Box, the MIO, the msc-IDE interface, the Freezer XL (by B. Engl), the Freezer 200x (by Hiassoft) and some more hardware.

 

For the "XE-PBI" (cart+ECI) we have the KMK IDE interface, the Freezer 200x (by Hiassoft), an XE to XL PBI "converter" pcb and ??? (what else?)

 

Hmm, all 800XE and 130XE computers have the ECI, some 65XE do have the ECI some don`t...

Afaik all 600XL and 800XL computers have the PBI, the 1200XL has no PBI (but there are instructions by Bob Woolley and others available on how to build a PBI for the 1200XL), think the 1400XL and 1450XLD also have the PBI (but not quite sure)...

 

-Andreas Koch.

[Mathy]

Hello Andreas, guys

 

The BlackBox has an XE-PBI on the printed circuit board, as well as a connector for the XL-PBI. Into this connector, a cable with two common connectors (female 50 pin internal connector also used with SCSI devices and a 50 pin card edge connector) is plugged.

 

XEGS's don't have a PBI either. And are missing one PBI specific signal. The MMU is different, so recreating this signal is not going to be easy.

 

The 65XE hit the market in the USA at the same time as the 130XE did. These 65XE's did not have an ECI and as far as I know, putting one in is not as easy as soldering in the right parts and making sure you can plug the device in to the PBI. The 65XE hit the market in Europe years after the 130XE first hit the market. These 65XE's as well as the 800XE's (their rebadged twins) were AFAIK all 130XE's that missed 64kB of RAM and the CO25953.

Greetings

 

Mathy

[UNIXcoffee928]

Ha! I like the "White Ink Printer", that's as good as the user who thought that the CD-ROM tray was to hold a Styrofoam coffee cup, and the other user who thought that the mouse was a foot-switch pedal, like on a sewing machine!

 

= )

 

 

Yeeeeeeeees, "White Elephant" Brand printer ink. They make extraordinary Left Handed Monkey Wrenches, All Purpose Snake Oil, delectable Red Herring, & I've heard that the sprawling grounds of the factory are a veritable menagerie of wildlife, including Rolling Hoop Snakes, Jackalopes, Chupacabra, & Yetie.

 

Must look into their stock... sure to be a worthwhile investment.

 

= )

 

 

I have always presumed that the connector edge on the 800 motherboard was for quality control diagnostic checks at the factory. There is a schematic in the Hardware Manual, that would be the place to check. I have never heard of anyone interfacing from that edge connector, but if someone has, it would be cool to hear about it.

 

 

L8R.

[+remowilliams]

Carmel- Get a life..

What, you don't like Mad Libs with electronics words?

Edited June 24, 2008 by remowilliams

[machf]

I've seen/heard somebody ask herself, why the characters on a piece of paper didn't turn out to be white, although she was sure she selected white for those characters on her laptop. She'ld put a red piece of paper in the printer. Me: "There's no white ink in the printer". She: "Can't the printer mix that somehow?".

 

Well, Mathy... actually, there are a few printers that can print white color, they are used mostly for decals and such - things where you are printing on a transparent surface, so "no color" doesn't mean the same as "white". ALPS printers are some that can do that, they use thermal ribbons. But the average desktop printer meant to just use white paper doesn't provide an option for that.

[UNIXcoffee928]

Yeah, White Elephant Brand Printers, we have 200 of them in our office, very common these days.

 

I'm gonna go do something productive, like put a sheet of Aluminum foil in a dot matrix printer and try to learn Braille, or something...

 

= )

[machf]

Take a look here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroDry

[Mathy]

Hello machf

 

Well, Mathy... actually, there are a few printers that can print white color...... But the average desktop printer meant to just use white paper doesn't provide an option for that.

The printer in question is a run of the mill desktop printer. Nothing special. Maybe I should have mentioned that.

 

BTW a member of the ABBUC once wrote an article in our magazin. The father of a friend of his had problems backing up stuff. The 5.25" floppy with the backup on it never could be read back. What happened? Dad made the backup and used a magnet to pin the floppy to the side of his desk.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy

[MEtalGuy66]

Actually, thats not it..

 

First off, there are plenty of people who read these forums daily who make me look like a toddler, as far as electronics knowledge and experience.. I enjoy answering relevant questions and helping others to understand 8-bit machines. Its a great way to insure that the user base and community grows. I really think the scene is much bigger now then it ever was during the "heyday" of atari. Its very important to pass on knowledge, help people to reach their own retro-hobbyist goals (even though some of us may have fully explored the particular area 15-20 years ago, its brand new to them) and that's part of what brings us all together...

 

Carmel annoys me because he will post irrelevant and redundant questions more often than not, spout BS speculations (eg. the Commodore 64 chipset was based on reverse engineering of the atari,) and often times, what hes commenting on has either been adressed already in the very same thread in PLAIN LAYMAN's terms, and hes just not bothered to read it, or has been the subject of so many damn discussions in the past year that everyone is tired of RETYPING the stuff. Hes got like 5,000 posts in less than 5 years, with about 100 of them being relevant, useful, or intriguing..

 

I've talked to a few people who actually have their AtariAge preferences set to filter out carmel's posts.. heh. This is not a lie or exageration.. There are probably quite a few people who choose to silently ignore him.. But I am an ass, so when he brings up a topic or asks a question that has been beaten into the ground on several recent discussions, some of which he even posted in.... heh... I cant restrain myself from being a smart-ass.. You'll never see me do that to a new or underexperienced atari user who asks a qustion in earnest (and who doesnt have an "8-joystick" user rating from gazillions of posts in the last few years, the vast majority of which were completely useless..)

 

Theres no "friction" between Carmel and me... I just think hes annoying... And from what I've gathered, not too many people disagree with me...

Edited June 25, 2008 by MEtalGuy66

[+Stephen]

I'm not sure why, but the obvious friction between Metal Guy and Carmel is pure genius. I'd like to arrange a boxing match.

 

I'd pay for a ticket

 

Stephen Anderson

[UNIXcoffee928]

Don't make me start a religious war, White Elephant Brand Printers have been kicking MicroDry's ass since like 1960. They're like on practically EVERY desk-top, gawd.

[machf]

Hello machf

 

Well, Mathy... actually, there are a few printers that can print white color...... But the average desktop printer meant to just use white paper doesn't provide an option for that.

The printer in question is a run of the mill desktop printer. Nothing special. Maybe I should have mentioned that.

Yeah... I just meant that printers capable of printing white are possible, it's only that since ~99% of people will only print on white paper, they aren't popular.

 

BTW a member of the ABBUC once wrote an article in our magazin. The father of a friend of his had problems backing up stuff. The 5.25" floppy with the backup on it never could be read back. What happened? Dad made the backup and used a magnet to pin the floppy to the side of his desk.

 

Greetings

 

Mathy

There are lots of stories (true stories) like that... on IAQ's office, there was this guy who brought his article for his Anime magazine on a diskette - and it turned out he had just dragged a shortcut to the file into it. They still keep reminding him of that. He's learned a bit more nowadays, though...

[machf]

Don't make me start a religious war, White Elephant Brand Printers have been kicking MicroDry's ass since like 1960. They're like on practically EVERY desk-top, gawd.

And their design is so good you don't even notice they are there...

[sup8pdct]

Following on from the various threads relating to MIO and the recent thread about the 400 got me thinking about the above subjects

 

Firstly relating to the xl’s PBI port…I’m just curious as to whether it’s only ‘single device’ compatible or multi device compatible (assuming that the device originally attached to the PBI port has a pbi connector as well and that the pbi device you want to connect to the first pbi device also has a pbi connector to connect to the first pbi device)

 

Atari had made several expansion boxes called the 1090XL. it has 5 slots in it and a backplane like a PC. It has it's own power supply and some buffer chips on the PCB.

I got mine from a guy who worked for one of the then harddrive manufactures. Atari sent them a sample for these people to do a harddrive card.

We all know what happened to that project.

The PBI has software support for 8 devices.

only the 600XL has power available on the PBI used for the 1064XL memory expansion.

The cart=eci also has power but it isn't advisable to use it.

I also have a PBI experimenters board. It has a decoding chip, 6520 and some dip switches to change the address where the 6520 appears in memory

and a small power supply. it has a proto area and provision for a 25 pin socket.

I have used this to interface to a judging box along with a cart that I programmed.

 

James

[atarifan49]

I can confirm that both the 1400XL, 1450XL, and 1450XLD all have PBI connectors on them. And like the previous poster stated, the PBI was designed to support 8 different devices. Each device was to be designed to use a specific ID bit.

 

On the 1400 and 1450 computers, 2 or 3 device ID bits were already being used by internal PBI add on's within the computer. The modem, speech synthesizer and on the 1450XLD - parallel disk drives.

 

Atari specifications for the PBI stipulated that a device should only use one ID bit in order to be called and used. The Atari built modem, speech synth, and disk drive hardware followed this spec. When I finally got my hands on a Black Box I was using my 1400XL as my main computer. But when I tried to use the Black Box with the computer it would not work. I even tried to go as far as disabiling the internal PBI devices and still would not work. I'm not sure but it appeared the 1400XL PBI wasn't quite the same as the 800XL. I ended up acquiring a 130XE at a thrift shop and started using that as my main computer with the Black Box.

 

As far as what appears to be a PBI style connector on the 400/800, yes they have an edge connector interface on their motherboards (a very large one). I believe that was only created for testing at the factory when they were being assembled. Never have I've seen anything documented about them or anyone make use of them for something.

 

The two best places for information about the PBI, other than the Atari spec documents on Atari Museum, was the Earl Rice Toolbox articles in Antic Magazine (1st article in Jan 1985 issue) and Mapping the Atari XL Edition.

 

Regards,

Glenn

[frogstar_robot]

I've talked to a few people who actually have their AtariAge preferences set to filter out carmel's posts.. heh. This is not a lie or exageration.. There are probably quite a few people who choose to silently ignore him..

 

Indeed. Plonking is a wonderful thing. I plonked a few invaders from Lemon64 and a few of our own more curmudgeonly members and the A8 boards got waaaay more pleasant to read. It just takes a minute or two and really cuts down on the urge to feed trolls. I highly recommend it.

[atarifan49]

I also have a PBI experimenters board. It has a decoding chip, 6520 and some dip switches to change the address where the 6520 appears in memory

and a small power supply. it has a proto area and provision for a 25 pin socket.

I have used this to interface to a judging box along with a cart that I programmed.

 

James

 

James,

 

Sounds like the same one I have. Wasn't it made by some company called MicroXL or something. It's been so long since I looked at it. I tried to interface a GI AY-3-8910 programmable sound generator with mine. Never did work out bugs in it. But I still have it in my mess of stuff. It definitely was a neat board for those who wanted to experiement with the PBI connector and build their own PBI devices.

 

One thing I did build some years later was a Nintendo development board interface. It was based on plans ordered out of Nuts and Volts magazine. The plans were based on a C-64 interface and I adapted it to use the two joystick connectors on the 800XL to communicate with the Nintendo. Other than going as far as building it and getting it to work, I didn't do anything else with it.

 

Glenn

[machf]

The two best places for information about the PBI, other than the Atari spec documents on Atari Museum, was the Earl Rice Toolbox articles in Antic Magazine (1st article in Jan 1985 issue)

Yes, I photocopied those articles from a friend's magazines long ago, too bad I never actually got to build anything... my problem was that PBI required a ROM and I had no way to program an EPROM. BTW, wasn't there a "Build your own EPROM burner" article in some Antic issue? That's one I'd like to take a look at...