8 Bit Computers and internet

[atarixle]

the smartest thing would be, to place such an "translation"-app as an service somewhere in the web, so the real feeling of browsing without the help of a (local) PC is given.

 

May be, this translator creates Atari-Like screens, that even translates background-colors (visible in Gr.0 with DLIs) and Links (much easier Link-Placement than HTML-Tags).

 

If you take a look at http://andymanone.dyndns.org/atarixle/boss/htmview3.htm , you'll see my HTML-Browser. The HTML-Parser is slooooooow ..... but after decoding (and converting into another internal format) the viewer works very fast - even in BASIC

Edited June 27, 2008 by atarixle

[Urchlay]

Instead of trying to write programs to support services that were designed for machine-architectures 2 generations larger/newer/faster than the 8-bit ATARI (32bit vs 8bit,) Why not design an on-line service based on tyoes of data that an 8-bit scale machine can handle efficiently?

 

This kind-of already exists, in the form of telnet BBSes and the telnet chat. Of course you need a modern machine or a Lantronix type of device to actually use them.

 

Another thing people could do would be to create new Atari-oriented web sites (or low-bandwidth versions of existing sites) using very basic HTML, designed to work well with lynx/links/w3m (text-based browsers). You'd use the Atari as a dumb terminal and browse via a browser running on a Linux/BSD/whatever box... for those not interested in Linux, someone could build a self-installing version of qmeg or bochs (virtual machine software) that includes a pre-built "Atari Linux" OS (with a standard windows "next, next, next, finish" type installer).

 

Here's a thought: it should be possible to implement the PPP (standard Internet dialup) protocol on an Atari. You'd be able to get a dialup account and truly get the Atari on the Internet with its own modem, no assistance from a PC required... there'd have to be Atari-native FTP, telnet, irc, etc. clients written... a web browser (even a dumb text-only one) is probably out of the question, though a web client (downloader like wget) would be do-able.

 

There's already a SLIP implementation (uIP versions 0.5 and 0.6) that's written to be compiled with cc65 and run on a Commodore 64, which should be easily portable to the Atari 8-bit... too bad no ISPs offer SLIP as an option any more. PPP is more complex, but probably possible on the A8... the transfer rate wouldn't be very fast (less than 1Kbyte/sec at 9600 baud, maybe 1.5K/sec at 19200), but you'd honestly be able to say your 8-bit was on the Internet, under its own power.

[Sean39]

Hi Guys

 

 

Wow this is what I am talking about......We just have to come up with the right hardware and software to do it. Once we are on the internet lets

keep in mind that we would have to have a way to keep Viruses out of the computers along with Spyware and Spam. Well it just something I thought

about because now we have more threat against computers than we did back in the 1980's....

 

By the way I just got Flight Simulator II the XE version but does anyone have keyboard functions for this game. I have no ideal what key does

what for this flight simulator if I knew the keys then it would be no problem flying this plane. I wish that I could find the books that came with

That cartridge.... Now enough of that this would be very cool to have a way to get on the internet with the 8 bit computers. Well a service through

a PC would help if there is no way of making a 8 bit computer work on the internet...Since we are talking about 32 bit on everything you see

on the internet and some use 128 bit encryption too. This is a very hard challange to do.....,so it will be really great if we can do it.

 

 

Sean

[MEtalGuy66]

Hi Guys

 

 

Wow this is what I am talking about......We just have to come up with the right hardware and software to do it. Once we are on the internet lets

keep in mind that we would have to have a way to keep Viruses out of the computers along with Spyware and Spam. Well it just something I thought

about because now we have more threat against computers than we did back in the 1980's....

 

By the way I just got Flight Simulator II the XE version but does anyone have keyboard functions for this game. I have no ideal what key does

what for this flight simulator if I knew the keys then it would be no problem flying this plane. I wish that I could find the books that came with

That cartridge.... Now enough of that this would be very cool to have a way to get on the internet with the 8 bit computers. Well a service through

a PC would help if there is no way of making a 8 bit computer work on the internet...Since we are talking about 32 bit on everything you see

on the internet and some use 128 bit encryption too. This is a very hard challange to do.....,so it will be really great if we can do it.

 

 

Sean

 

What is a virus going to do to a single-tasking, single-user 8 bit system?

 

Spam? for an 8-bit machine? hahahahah...

 

Dude.. You dont get it.. The atari is NOT going to do what a PC does on the internet.. It DOES NOT HAVE 1/100th the resources necessary.. And noones gonna write viruses for it either.. It is only capable of running a single program at a time.. Therefore, if the virus is runing, its obvious to (all but the stupidest) user.. Trojans are possible, but its highly doubtful anyone would bother nowadayze.. If you suspect that theres malware running.. Turn off the power.. Its gone.. for sure.. If you think its on a disk, fix that disk, and your done.. for sure.. Its not like modern PCs where there are 10,000+ files on your system partition and a major pain in the ass to "reinstall" everything..

 

Telnet is text only... Alot more than just text is possible.. But Jpegs, GIFs, STreaming audio & video, are out of the question. ATARI-taliored web pages could be made using uncompressed graphics... Or another system than HTML that is more oriented towards the ATARI's available resources could be devised..

 

Go check out Q-link on the C=64.. That is a far cry better than telnet.... A service like Q-link, but also with a "web portal" that fetches pages from the web and "converts" them in realtime would be really kewl...

[Sean39]

Sorry I did not know what we were up against......I was just not sure about viruses and that the only reason I brought it up. I also was not sure even

if it was possible to get on the internet with only a 8 bit computer. Now there is other services for the Atari 8 bit computers....I know Q link was for Commodore users.....Now is Telnet for Atari or will Q link and Telnet both work for Atari Systems. I am really not familiar with either one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Sean39

[MEtalGuy66]

Sorry I did not know what we were up against......I was just not sure about viruses and that the only reason I brought it up. I also was not sure even

if it was possible to get on the internet with only a 8 bit computer. Now there is other services for the Atari 8 bit computers....I know Q link was for Commodore users.....Now is Telnet for Atari or will Q link and Telnet both work for Atari Systems. I am really not familiar with either one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Sean39

 

Telnet is a universal standard for text terminal sessions over networks.. Its not specifically for atari. It originated on unix systems and mainframes, but the atari is well capable of supporting it. As long as all you want is text, thats fine.. And everyone has been doing it with ATARIs for years.. (or rather, using terminal programs on the atari to initiate telnet sessions through other "internet capable" devices, such as a PC or LANTRONIX terminal server..

[UNIXcoffee928]

Running telnet on Atari hardware is fine, but running telnet at all on any PC/Mac/Linuxbox is a huge security risk to any host running an emulator.

 

We really should have an ssh suite to do network communications of any sort. It works very similar to telnet, remote copy, & ftp, but provides a lot more security through authentication.

 

Here's the RFCs:

 

4251 The Secure Shell (SSH) Protocol Architecture

4252 The Secure Shell (SSH) Authentication Protocol

4253 The Secure Shell (SSH) Transport Layer Protocol

4254 The Secure Shell (SSH) Connection Protocol

 

 

4253 is the best place to check out the basis of the underlying algorithm. As long as there is a TCP/IP connection, this is what comes next.

 

It appears that 3DES is sufficient (3xDES) as an encryption algorithm for ssh. Here's a description of DES this could definitely run on an Atari.

 

Here's the DES algorithm explained in depth.

Edited June 28, 2008 by UNIXcoffee928

[rje]

I not even sure if the Atari can do the Gif,or Jpegs,

 

GIFs and JPEGs are do-able, rather than displaying them inline you could display the ALT text or filename as a link, selecting the link then saves the browser's current state to RAMdisk, downloads the image and launches APACVIEW (for GIFs) or JpegView (for JPEGs). When going back, open up the browser again and restore its state from RAMdisk. JpegView is open source so it could be modified to integrate more closely with the browser.

 

It'd take some extra RAM and it'd be slow (especially with JPEGs), but it's not impossible.

 

Also, the 16-bit sound idea has, in a way, also been applied to graphic modes on the Atari, search the forums/internet for APAC, HIP, RIP, TIP, CIN graphic modes. The basic idea is to draw an image using 2 or more of the Atari's existing graphics modes and then alternate between the modes. Because of the way the human eye works, it gives the appearance of improved resolution and/or more colours across the image.

[Sean39]

Hi guys

 

Now this is getting to be very interesting..... I am going to get a good modem for the Atari computer......I really don't want to work through

my PC for using the atari computer communication .....I would like to do it with the Atari computer. What ever we decide on in data communications.

Wether it be the internet or Telnet or what ever else we can think of. I would like to do it straight forward just with the Atari Computer without having

to go through my PC to get access what ever we decide on. The other ideal that was brought up to me is to set up a server myself for the Atari

computers that could access the internet... This would take a Server PC and Dell makes them but for around $4000.00 and up. This would allow

Atari computers to access that Server PC while it access the internet and makes the correct changes so an Atari could get the correct data at

only 8 bits....It would actually change a 32bit format to a 8 bit format style that Atari computers could reconize. Very high cost project.....

Dell computers told me it could be done and they could make the server Computer for me to do exaclty that...I told them what I wanted it

to do,and they said it could be done. That also includes special software to make it where an Atari computer could access the internet with

only limmited access due to Pictures and other things on the internet that take alot of memory in a computer. Well Dell computers said it

could be done, but Atari users would not get normal internet access due to the complex things used by the internet....They even said they would

set it up for me,but cost are high at this point......Like I said the server computer is around $4000.00 plus software cost would be added in.

Then set up cost for dell setting me up to be a server........Let just say it get close to $10,000.00 .........So I say this way is out.

 

 

Sean

[+remowilliams]

It would actually change a 32bit format to a 8 bit format style that Atari computers could reconize.

 

They even said they would set it up for me,but cost are high at this point

What in the world are they trying to sell you?

 

You want an A8 on the internet without a PC, get a SIO->serial device (Atari 850, P:R: Connection, etc) and a Lantronix UDS or similar (as mentioned above) hooked into an internet router. That and a terminal program will get you telnet capable.

[MEtalGuy66]

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAA

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA..

 

 

I've heard it all now..

 

Someone is blowing some serious smoke up someone's ass at some level is all I can say...

 

I'd love to speak to whatever DELL representative supposedly made you that offer...

 

Lemme clue you in on a few things:

 

1) Dell is a multi BILLION dollar corporation.. They sell suites of equipment to companies every day for contracts in the 5 and 6 digit range... Their consumer level sales make up a big part of their business as well, but they dont develop custom software for customers who buy a single machine.. If they did take on a software development project, you can bet your ass it would not be for some piss-ant 10,000 dollar sale.. And if you asked them to develop for an 8-bit atari, theyd probably wonder what you were smoking...

 

2) heh. where did you get the idea that the "number of bits" of the machine determines what kind of data it can "recognize"? This is what makes what you said sound completely ludicrous.. 8,16,32,64bit refers to the width of the data bus on the machines.. Not how many bits equals a byte where communications are concerned..

 

Guess what: On an AMD athlon64, when it tells you how many bytes were transferred in a communications operation, its the same number of bits (8 per byte) that would have been transferred on an 8-bit ATARI during a similar operation in which it reported that number of bytes transferred..

 

What we were telling you before is that an 8-bit processor (such as the 6502C used in the ATARI) running a 1.77mhz cannot POSSIBLY process the kind of data (meaning the SCALE and SIZE) that a 32 or 64bit processor running at several thousand mhz can process.. The types of data (pictures, audio files, video files, etc.) used on the web nowadayze were designed for processors that have the ability to process THOUSANDS of times more data per second than the atari can. Its not that the atari cant recieve the data, or recognize it. Storage space provided, I can transfer any file to my 8-bit ATARI that I can to my PC... And given enough time, and enough storage space, I can write software that tells the atari how to do anything I want to with that data.. Thats not the issue at all.

 

It's that for example,. a jpeg image (picture) that makes up a tiny part of a web page can be decoded and displayed by a modern computer in a few thousadths of a second.. The atari takes several MINUTES to decode the same image and then cant display it properly anyway because the atari's display hardware does about 1/4th the resolution and about 1/65000th the number of colors that the most BASIC web browser has by today's standards..

 

Higher bus-width machines have exponentially larger resources and exponentially faster calculation times, yes... But you don't convert DATA from one bit-depth to another in order for 2 machines to communicate.

 

And Im sorry.. If someone at Dell really told you that, they probably had all their co workers listening in and laughing their asses off on other lines.. And they probably captured the recording of the conversation so they could email it to their buddies so they could laugh their asses off as well..

Edited June 29, 2008 by MEtalGuy66

[Rybags]

I find the concept of internet browsing on the A8 kinda rediculous.

 

To get an idea of what you'd get, just size your browser window such that the screen area is about 320x240. You'll find that very few sites are usable in that configuration.

 

Sure, there's the option to scroll around and sure, there's PDAs out there with screen areas comparable to retro computers. But, said PDAs usually have CPUs equivalent to desktops of 7-8 years ago, and graphical capabilities about equivalent to a Playstation. Not to mention they usually have RAM size in the order of hundreds of times the size of the Atari.

 

And, sure there are sites that are made to work with handheld devices, but they are relatively few.

 

I think the best option for web-browsing on the A8 would be some sort of intermediary on the PC which just took page bitmap data and compressed it, then allowed the A8 to display it in a big scrolling window.

 

But even then - why? You're better off just using the PC like 99.5% of other 'net users out there.

[Cybernoid]

Dell computers told me it could be done and they could make the server Computer for me to do exaclty that...I told them what I wanted it

to do,and they said it could be done. That also includes special software to make it where an Atari computer could access the internet with

only limmited access due to Pictures and other things on the internet that take alot of memory in a computer. Well Dell computers said it

could be done, but...

 

 

Sean, please. You are killing me, here!!!

 

We are trying to tell you how to connect an 8bit Atari to the Internet. You do not need an expensive server or expensive software...

 

It is simple. You need a terminal program for the Atari like BobTerm or ICE-T. A Serial device like the R:verter, or an Atari 850 box, or an SIO2PC cable.

 

Then you need a way to translate web pages to text. I use my Linux box and settup the Atari as a dumb terminal and run lynx on the box. I have also setup Cygwin to run lynx on a windoze PC. I have run this with the APE R: emulation and telnet into the same APE machine and run lynx from there. It works great!!!

 

You can also buy a Lantronix. But, since I am cheap, and I already have Cygwin and Linux and PCs, I use what I have instead of buying a Lantronix.

 

Besides, there are multiple ways to get to the internet via the Atari already. It usually involves a server to translate information into text that the Atari can understand, and I can assure you that no one has spent $4000+ in Dell equipment to do it....

[doctorclu]

Besides, there are multiple ways to get to the internet via the Atari already. It usually involves a server to translate information into text that the Atari can understand, and I can assure you that no one has spent $4000+ in Dell equipment to do it....

 

Man if I had $4000 to blow on Atari, what would I spend it on short of using some of it to get a 1450xl? You could probably start from scratch, have a Atari computer of whatever type, modern storage (MyIde, SIO2SD), a lantronix UDS-10, and ways to hook it all up for under $400.

[+remowilliams]

I'd love to speak to whatever DELL representative supposedly made you that offer...

I spoke to Dell. They said that their UK consultant carmel andrews is heading the project.

 

[MEtalGuy66]

I'd love to speak to whatever DELL representative supposedly made you that offer...

I spoke to Dell. They said that their UK consultant carmel andrews is heading the project.

 

 

Hahah..

 

Well, to be fair to Carmel, I'd say this is beyond the scope of even HIS imagination...

[Shawn Jefferson]

Now

if we can take the same concept for the rest of the computer we may be able to get 16bit processing in the rest of the computer. This is only

a thought,and I am not even sure if it could be done.

 

No, it can't be done, because you are confusing several concepts. One, is the data bus width that defines whether or not a computer is 8, 16 or 32 bit. Information being served up on the Internet doesn't have any reliance on computers that are 32-bit. It's just information, and any computer capable of processing that information can do so. The Atari can show GIF and JPEG pictures, in fact there are viewers out there to do so. The problem is that the Atari computer has other limitations that severely limit it's use as a web browsing platform. First being the graphics limitations and most importantly the speed of the processor.

 

How much memory the computer has is pretty secondary to these other problems.

 

Edit: Wow. Reading through the other posts... I'm beginning to doubt Sean's sincerity.

Edited June 29, 2008 by Shawn Jefferson

[Fletch]

Sean,

 

I don't want to sound cynical, but I am always cautious when I see posts like yours about your family. Over the years I have seen many posts on boards from new members that have various tails of trauma or some other disturbance and sadly the whole stories begin to unwind.

 

Normally, I just ignore these and give the poster the benefit of the doubt, but after reading the Dell post I am starting to wonder about the validity of your posts. I hope I am wrong and if I am I do feel badly about what you and your daughter have been though.

 

If my hunch is correct however, I hope you find a better way to entertain yourself.

 

Fletch

[Fletch]

Sean,

 

I found your wife's obituary. I apologize for doubting you. I need to learn to stop trusting my gut.

 

Fletch

 

 

Sean,

 

I don't want to sound cynical, but I am always cautious when I see posts like yours about your family. Over the years I have seen many posts on boards from new members that have various tails of trauma or some other disturbance and sadly the whole stories begin to unwind.

 

Normally, I just ignore these and give the poster the benefit of the doubt, but after reading the Dell post I am starting to wonder about the validity of your posts. I hope I am wrong and if I am I do feel badly about what you and your daughter have been though.

 

If my hunch is correct however, I hope you find a better way to entertain yourself.

 

Fletch

[UNIXcoffee928]

"Hello My Friend... Support here. I will sell you server for $10 cheaper, and my cousin will throw in one of his oxen to bring it to your location."

 

Give me a minute to get back to my chair, I'm still unrofling.

 

We should all send Metalguy condolence cards for having the patience to answer this, at all, without having to shoot laser-beams from his eyeballs.

 

= )

 

 

This whole topic is really in the "Er, Why?" category, because it is completely pointless, and I would sit here explaining 10,000 reasons why, but the mere thought of doing so makes MY eyeballs start to feel a little warm.

 

So I won't.

 

As I've mentioned, some VERY BASIC COMMAND LINE TOOLS that offer a REAL BENEFIT would be worthwhile. If you are posting here you obviously already have a browser, so chill.

 

...I also get the impression that Sean has not yet gone through all of the source code on mozilla.org, it might be advisable to do so before the next "Let's have someone-else build a browser" post.

 

 

All of that being said, the mere mention of "a server" did spark a tiny idea that is completely unrelated... To everything except Post #24. This just fleshes it out a bit.

 

Someone so inclined could, indeed, build a free "Service" on a used $135 Compaq 550 8-way Xeon (nothin' like OverKill, but If you're buying something, you may as well buy SOMETHING!).

 

= )

 

 

Someone so inclined could make something akin to the old Compuserve of yesteryear.

 

Basically, an online Mega-BBS for retro machines.

 

Atariage has most of the features already, anyway, but if there was something with all of the other Compuserve features, including email addresses, that the A8 hardware or emus could connect to using ATASCII, it would be interesting.

 

This would be kinda cool, actually. An 8-way Xeon running Linux is probably significantly more powerful than the whole datacenter that Compuserve used in the eighties, anyway.

 

I'll leave that idea floating around for those who fall into the "so inclined category".

 

 

As I've mentioned, ssh is what we should be shooting for, to safely use the emulator online.

 

 

L8R.

Edited June 30, 2008 by UNIXcoffee928

[Urchlay]

As I've mentioned, ssh is what we should be shooting for, to safely use the emulator online.

 

Here's a thought... you can get "crypto accelerator" chips that are basically DES/3DES/etc done in hardware. Hang one of those off the PBI, write a driver to talk to it... the rest of the SSH protocol is much less CPU-intensive, an Atari could handle it I think... or if not, you could just do encrypted telnet (aka telnets), which gives you the security benefits without the nice fringe benefits like X11 forwarding (which would be useless to an Atari anyway) and key-based authentication (which might not be useless on an Atari...)

 

What exactly would you use ssh for if you had an ssh client on the Atari, though? Replacement for telnet, for internet BBSes?

[MEtalGuy66]

 

This is the kind of quality you could expect from an Atari 8-bit web browser.

This is the highest resolution mode that the Atari will do, and the text is barely readable on a real color monitor.

 

And I mean this would take some VERY GOOD coding to make it interpret a web page, decode the pictures, and parse it all into something this coherant.

 

And it would probably take it 10 minutes or so to bring up a page like this (assuming the enitre AtariAge homepage has been decoded, parsed, and rendered in memory, allowing you to preview it one screen's worth at a time).

If you "clicked on any of the links" it would take it another several minutes (at least) to "prepare" the next page for viewing...

 

This is not worth doing, in my oppinion.. It would not be anything youd ever want to ACTUALLY USE to browse the web.. It'd be a neat novelty to show your friends.. Thats about it..

Edited June 30, 2008 by MEtalGuy66

[vitoco]

@MEtalGuy66, that was a very impressive screenshot

 

BTW, I've documented (in spanish) what I did to connect my 800XL to the Internet some years ago, using Contiki. Google's translation tool works OK on my page, except on command lines and the ASCII wiring chart.

 

++Vitoco

[Shawn Jefferson]

This is the kind of quality you could expect from an Atari 8-bit web browser.

This is the highest resolution mode that the Atari will do, and the text is barely readable on a real color monitor.

 

The browser would have to support scrolling the screen I think, like most palm-based devices do.

 

And it would probably take it 10 minutes or so to bring up a page like this (assuming the enitre AtariAge homepage has been decoded, parsed, and rendered in memory, allowing you to preview it one screen's worth at a time).

If you "clicked on any of the links" it would take it another several minutes (at least) to "prepare" the next page for viewing...

 

The convertor server would need to make heavy use of caching to avoid having to re-convert frequently viewed pages, although almost all content on the web now is dynamically created by server-side scripting and database lookups... maybe you'd have to statically cache those pages and display stale data unless the user wanted it.

 

This is not worth doing, in my oppinion.. It would not be anything youd ever want to ACTUALLY USE to browse the web.. It'd be a neat novelty to show your friends.. Thats about it..

 

Totally agree, it's pretty pointless.

 

Sean, if your situation is legitimate, (and I'm going to assume it is to avoid looking like a big jerk), I think you are better off selling all your Atari gear and buying your kid a current generation computer and Internet access (parent-monitored internet access that is.) It's great that you want to share your hobbies and passion with your daughter, and maybe that's all that really matters in the end anyway, but well, that's my advice.

[RedBeard]

I love the "Powered By Dell" at the top. I'm crackin' up.

 

><>RedBeard

 

/* Hey, I love this whole topic. This is classic stuph! Sean, God Bless you, brother! */