Atari v Commodore

[Rockford]

Well, let's see how it works. Atarians rip off an 20+ years old C64 picture, then fix it a little bit with a modern PC tool and TA-DA... what an achivement :D

...

 

It's not our fault that the C64 is so dull that a PC program which helps to keep up with the complexity of the machine does make no sense...

 

That is part of the fun when working with the A8s today!

 

BTW:

 

Wow a real achievement indeed, you have just digitalized a picture and then ported it to atari. Nowadays, with PC tools, even monkey can do this If you are so good and cunning try to draw it pixel by pixel, (like STE did it) and then we will talk. On every 8bit scene (including Atari)you would be a laughing-stock if you bragged about anything like that

Edited September 10, 2009 by Rockford

[PeteD]

WIRED!!

 

lol

 

Pete

[Bryan]

ohhhh the movie posters, greyscaled then derezzed with mosiac on photoshop then maybe overlayed on my pics. i truly am not worthy of your ability. LOL

 

actually being as how they are only 4 colours u would have maybe thought that some atari artist would have done something as good in the last 30 fcking years wouldnt you really?

 

I can't tell from your post if you know those are converted to the 16-shade GTIA mode.

[PeteD]

Yeah, I pointed it out to him already. I think he's just talking about the fact that why there doesn't seem to be more 4 colour shaded stuff on A8 as it's so easy to do without faffing with PMGs or using sodding great wide pixels

 

 

Pete

[STE'86]

ohhhh the movie posters, greyscaled then derezzed with mosiac on photoshop then maybe overlayed on my pics. i truly am not worthy of your ability. LOL

 

actually being as how they are only 4 colours u would have maybe thought that some atari artist would have done something as good in the last 30 fcking years wouldnt you really?

 

I can't tell from your post if you know those are converted to the 16-shade GTIA mode.

 

i mean that MY stuff and the stuff of several other c64 artists is only 4 colours and i ask the question why in 30 years nobody has done any A8 to stuff to match it?

 

have u had no artists around for 30 years?

 

Steve

[frenchman]

 

Wow a real achievement indeed, you have just digitalized a picture and then ported it to atari. Nowadays, with PC tools, even monkey can do this If you are so good and cunning try to draw it pixel by pixel, (like STE did it) and then we will talk. On every 8bit scene (including Atari)you would be a laughing-stock if you bragged about anything like that

 

And here we have a real knowledgeable C64 user.

 

Digitized, digitizing or digitization

[PeteD]

Excuse me, don't you mean discombobulated?

 

 

Pete

[atarian63]

Well, it's said that aparently most UK Atari owners back then were supposedly all cassette based however on the contrary in my experience, back here in my school days ALL of the A8 owners had 1050's. The vast majority of kids were c64 owners though

Probably depends on when in time. What time period are you talking about. I am guessing 86-90.

Here in the heyday 79-84 it was Apple then Atari.

[atarian63]

 

Yeah slow bloated inefficient and overpriced....just like the Rolls Royce when what any real man want's is a small sporty car with exemplary handling LOL

 

Honestly as nice as Dropzone is on either machine it is hardly a technical tour de force compared to Something like Salamander (which with restrictive PM graphics the A8 could not replicate anywhere near as good). Keep convincing yourself that only 1st generation software appeared on the C64 and so you can have a few close calls in your isolated little delusional world

 

Sorry I got it wrong (once in a while I do, not very often like our companion Rocky who always gets it wrong, but sometimes).

Archer MacLean:

The Atari is the PORSCHE of home computers (ZZAP! C64 magazine):

So excellent! Good One!

[Rockford]

 

Wow a real achievement indeed, you have just digitalized a picture and then ported it to atari. Nowadays, with PC tools, even monkey can do this If you are so good and cunning try to draw it pixel by pixel, (like STE did it) and then we will talk. On every 8bit scene (including Atari)you would be a laughing-stock if you bragged about anything like that

 

And here we have a real knowledgeable C64 user.

 

Digitized, digitizing or digitization

 

Oh yeaaaah

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/digitalize

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/digitalize

 

Go back to school ROTFL

 

If you don't know what "synonym" means, let me know

Edited September 10, 2009 by Rockford

[STE'86]

 

Wow a real achievement indeed, you have just digitalized a picture and then ported it to atari. Nowadays, with PC tools, even monkey can do this If you are so good and cunning try to draw it pixel by pixel, (like STE did it) and then we will talk. On every 8bit scene (including Atari)you would be a laughing-stock if you bragged about anything like that

 

And here we have a real knowledgeable C64 user.

 

Digitized, digitizing or digitization

 

 

actually if u want to be pedantic, its "really knowledgeable" as "real knowledgeable" would be an american colloquial contraction.

 

Steve

[Tezz]

Probably depends on when in time. What time period are you talking about. I am guessing 86-90.

Here in the heyday 79-84 it was Apple then Atari.

I got my first 800xl in 1984 although it was a bit later when I was able to get the 1050 due to the high cost and having the worlds lowest paid paper round

[emkay]

 

Funny thing is The Eidolon runs at the same speed more or less on both machines...could it be the A8 version is not running at half the screen resolution of the C64 version this time?

 

?

 

You really should check it more precisely.

 

But, to talk about the "2 line" mode as something worse, is not a real clever manner.

 

Coders could have done this games without doubling the pixel by copying the whole line by software. Let's see whether they will get as double as fast or not

[emkay]

Not anyone elses but Archers fault if he had no clue how to code properly on C64 Same as I keep saying about a lot of games being ported to A8 from C64 though. Doesn't mean one is a worse machine just the coder didn't know how to handle it.

 

 

It has more to do with the fact that the C64 broke with the "Computer growth rules".

The Atari was able to have simulations running and to show what's going on.

The C64 was done to have something on the screen going on with less capabilities of doing simulations.

[emkay]

i mean that MY stuff and the stuff of several other c64 artists is only 4 colours and i ask the question why in 30 years nobody has done any A8 to stuff to match it?

 

have u had no artists around for 30 years?

 

hm...

 

I guess, you are one of those guys who can answer this.

[PeteD]

Not anyone elses but Archers fault if he had no clue how to code properly on C64 Same as I keep saying about a lot of games being ported to A8 from C64 though. Doesn't mean one is a worse machine just the coder didn't know how to handle it.

 

 

It has more to do with the fact that the C64 broke with the "Computer growth rules".

The Atari was able to have simulations running and to show what's going on.

The C64 was done to have something on the screen going on with less capabilities of doing simulations.

 

Well you can take that any way. The c64 added more/bigger/more colour hardware sprites to reduce the CPU overhead for displaying such. As you can already see from any A8 game that tries to do lots of reasonable sized moving objects it'll slow down, then whre is the cpu left to do the "simulations"? A 1mhz cpu taking pretty much 0 time to display 16 sprites vs a 1.79mhz cpu taking 1.5mhz to display 16 sprites still leaves the C64 on top. Of course those are only "numbers" but you can't say outright that the A8 is more of a "simulation" machine.

 

 

Pete

[+CharlieChaplin]

@Rockford:

 

Well,

- I think you know the C64 does 160x200 with 16 colours out of the box (standard)

while

-the Atari does 160x192 with 4 colours out of the box (standard).

 

Getting more colours on the Atari requires more efforts, more knowledge, sometimes using tricks, etc. etc.

And err, most games and screenshots you were and still are presenting here (with a few exceptions) are LOW BUDGET GAMES ! Do you really think they would have put more efforts, more time, more money in a low budget production, just to get more colours (and/or higher resolution) in the A8 (con)version ?!? Instead the "low budget programmers" used the standard / out of the box graphics, colours and resolutions. So most of your presentations like Milk Race, BMX Simulator, Grand Prix Sim., Draconus, Zybex, etc. don`t count - they are better on the C64, since they just used the standard there, they could have been better on the A8 (but then they had to use an uncommon or non-standard way, which was and still is unrealistic for commercial low budget productions)...

 

As I said before, there are exceptions, e.g. Rampage was a full price game, but it is a piss-poor game on the A8, still this does not mean the A8 is poor, only the programmers who did this game (conversion) were poor !! Think you have to count for more things than just "hey the C64 version has more colours and/or higher resolution", you also have to count if it was a full price or low-budget release, if it was a conversion or an original game, how much time was put into the original game vs. how much time was spent for the conversion, how long was the computer on the market at the release of the program (was everything already well-known or was everything still a mystery about the machine), was it the programmer`s first (and maybe only) production etc. etc. Of course thats true for both sides C64 and A8, if we show examples like A.R., RoF, Koronis Rift, etc. stating the A8 version is better, we have to take the same things into account (e.g. the C64 wasn`t that long on the market then, etc.)...

 

Only counting one or two facts and then saying "the C64 version is superior in all aspects" simply isn`t enough. Or to say it with the words of your bad WW2 example "We germans have killed the most - we have won the war !" and of course you know, while the first thing seems to be true, the second isn`t for sure !!

 

-Andreas Koch.

 

P.S.: And err, allthough being an A8-owner, I still think, while Amaurote looks quite impressive it has an extremely boring gameplay. The vehicle in the game has bad controls and targeting something with the "spring-bombs" is just a matter of luck. Last not least, the game is extremely repetitive, there isn`t much difference between playing one level or another of the game (play one level if you like and you are bored enough NOT to play another level). Thats why I always choose Amaurote for the top ten of bad/boring A8 games, the gfx alone do not impress me that much...

Edited September 10, 2009 by CharlieChaplin

[emkay]

Of course those are only "numbers" but you can't say outright that the A8 is more of a "simulation" machine.

 

 

 

 

Ofcourse I can.

Particular Drop Zone is the best example for this. The whole level is calculated in realtime and the action is immense.

Vice Versa on the C64 in Turrican. Many stuff can happen on the screen, but the whole game is triggered for the enemies to save CPU time.

And, well, I just want to point out the Sierpinskies in the Shrine demo. Have you really watched it?

Also Rescue on Fractalus takes benefit by this. The graphics fit to the "simulation" the game handles, and it is fast enough projected to the screen.

When C64 wants to show some "simulation" it gets unplayable slow, or is restricted to the Charmode resolution of 40*25.

Edited September 10, 2009 by emkay

[PeteD]

Of course those are only "numbers" but you can't say outright that the A8 is more of a "simulation" machine.

 

 

 

 

Ofcourse I can.

Paricular Drop Zone is the best example for this. The whole level is calculated in realtime and the action is immense.

Vice Versa on the C64 in Turrican. Many stuff can happen on the screen, but the whole game is triggered for the enemies to save CPU time.

And, well, I just want to point out the Sierpinskies in the Shrine demo. Have you really watched it?

Also Rescue on Fractalus takes benefit by this. The graphics fit to the "simulation" the game handles, and it is fast enough projected to the screen.

When C64 wants to show some "simulation" it gets unplayable slow, or is restricted to the Charmode resolution of 40*25.

 

On dropzone at least you're making assumptions that the code is the same. Just from that scan of Zzap you can read it isn't so you can't presume it's optimised on C64, Archer being an A8 coder. RoF has been talked about enough earlier Shrine demo I can't comment on because I don't know how it's written, for all I know it's another 320k monster of precalculated stuff.

 

*edit*

Having just looked at The Shrine demo it's using a very low res mode again. 80*96? So it's not really drawing a lot giving it more cpu for the "simulation"

 

 

Pete

Edited September 10, 2009 by PeteD

[frenchman]

 

As I said before, there are exceptions, e.g. Rampage was a full price game, but it is a piss-poor game on the A8, still this does not mean the A8 is poor, only the programmers who did this game (conversion) were poor !!

 

This only counts for C64ers, it's a bad coder who cannot program the C64 (Dropzone PeteD comment), but when it is on A8 (eg Rampage), the computer is oh so bad (Rocky Mountains).

Edited September 10, 2009 by frenchman

[frenchman]

Go back to school ROTFL

 

If you don't know what "synonym" means, let me know

 

LOL MEGA LOL :D :D :D :D MEGA LOL :D LOL MEGA LOL :D LOL MEGA BRILL LOL :D LOL LOL LOL :D :D :D LOL BRILL OVER MEGA LOL :D :D LOL LOL MEGA

hold on, he's got a new one.....MEGA ROTFL ROTFL :D :D ROTFL LOL MEGA MEGA :D :D :D :D :D :D :D ROTFL ROTFL BRILL LOL :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D ROTFL OVER LOL MEGA :D

 

 

BTW......dead yet?

Edited September 10, 2009 by frenchman

[STE'86]

i mean that MY stuff and the stuff of several other c64 artists is only 4 colours and i ask the question why in 30 years nobody has done any A8 to stuff to match it?

 

have u had no artists around for 30 years?

 

hm...

 

I guess, you are one of those guys who can answer this.

 

Ah right i see, so on this machine u insist was and indeed still is so popular, there have never specific artists that are the equivalent of the 6 or so of us on the 64 who achieved any kind of notoriety?

 

and of course in the perverse logic of yourself, this would of course be our fault?

 

not yourselves on here? or the rest of the supposedly massive atari following over the years? but indeed the 64 artists for not working on the atari? right ok guilty as charged. i am glad u pointed that out.

 

i would however like to say in our defence that every other 8 bit machine had its own set of artists specialising on that format. in fact the guy i admired most did spectrum stuff. a chap by the name of Dave Thorpe. who used to do the US gold and ocean loaders. so the question must still arise...what did u do with your artists? and how come in the the retro atari land everyone here seems very big on "talking the talk" about how to do graphics but not actually "walking the walk" and actually getting off their butt and doing some?

 

Steve

[frenchman]

 

 

actually if u want to be pedantic, its "really knowledgeable" as "real knowledgeable" would be an american colloquial contraction.

 

Steve

 

I'm English/American, so that's fine.

[Irgendwer]

ohhhh the movie posters, greyscaled then derezzed with mosiac on photoshop then maybe overlayed on my pics.

 

Yes, I've taken the movie posters - like you...

Sorry, I don't own photoshop nor I didn't took your work as overlay.

 

i truly am not worthy of your ability. LOL

 

I think you get this totally wrong. This wasn't a presentation of my abilities (which were in this case of course poor), but a presentation of the abilities of the machine.

 

actually being as how they are only 4 colours u would have maybe thought that some atari artist would have done something as good in the last 30 fcking years wouldnt you really?

 

I've done plenty pics in 4 colours in the eighties - the 'Touch Tablet' and 'Atariartist' are very decent tools.

I've only published little, but you can find four pics of my old work

here.

Edited September 10, 2009 by Irgendwer

[frenchman]

 

Wow a real achievement indeed, you have just digitalized a picture and then ported it to atari. Nowadays, with PC tools, even monkey can do this If you are so good and cunning try to draw it pixel by pixel, (like STE did it) and then we will talk. On every 8bit scene (including Atari)you would be a laughing-stock if you bragged about anything like that

 

I guess as usual, Rocky Mountains is the laughing stock around here. LOL :D ROTFL :D :D MEGA LOL :D :D MEGA MEGA ROTFL :D :D UEBER LOL :D UNDER ROTFL MEGA LOL :D :D

Edited September 10, 2009 by frenchman