sack-c0s Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Personally on the girl front I've been spending my time enjoying myself with Paula, Agnus and Denise. They're a fun trio... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 So why on Earth are you so bitter whenever someone comes along with a bit of industry experience? Don't say "because they didn't support the A8" or whatever because we've covered that ground, you were there and didn't support it either it seems. Your logics are still interesting. Someone appears here with experience in the games industry during the 1980's and you take a pop at them over something; there must be a reason for it but it just isn't obvious yet so i'm taking my best guess based on available evidence. Today you easily can get everything needed from the internet, you can ask people for some aid , and so on. Seeing how slow even today, with all knowledge from the internet, progress happens, and thinking back to the 80's , I must have done something impossible there. -No relation to computer productions -No people supporting my progress -No Internet -Just learning from books and computer magazines -writing computer programs in Basic , and later with added assembler.... -winning a contest (even if a small one) ... in my spare time and with a fulltime job in the real life... And you feel that makes you different in some way compared to how most of the A8 and C64 programmers here got their start? Even the ones who were at some point paid for their work weren't rolling in money and needed a full time job (or were still at school) as well and that's particularly true of anyone working on budget software because those tended to pay a single lump sum on completion; it wasn't more than a couple of thousand pounds at best and had to be divided amongst the people who did the work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 by jove we have some colour! a bit bit heavy on the yellow i will grant you, but definitely C_O_L_O_U_R and not M_O_N_O_C_H_R_O_M_E makes a nice change from the CGA and hercules greenscreen monitor emulations that are so prevalent on the a8. sooo, if u can do this then maybe myth or ghosts n goblins? shame on u all for not trying them Steve That's not too shabby really.. Still lacking in colour on the sprites, but it definitely has that 'I want to be a c64 when I grow up' feel about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Well, going Industry Experience... >20 years ago, I made probably $3,000 programming jobs on the Atari. Somewhere about 3-4 times that on the C-64. Thankful for both, company I did the C-64 stuff for went down the shit-chute due to shitty distribution. Still prefer the Atari. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 (edited) by jove we have some colour! a bit bit heavy on the yellow i will grant you, but definitely C_O_L_O_U_R and not M_O_N_O_C_H_R_O_M_E makes a nice change from the CGA and hercules greenscreen monitor emulations that are so prevalent on the a8. sooo, if u can do this then maybe myth or ghosts n goblins? shame on u all for not trying them Steve The graphics were ok on Ninja Commando, I've never compared the two but back then I assumed that they were taken from the c64 version. I don't know which came first though. The colour usuage is only the bog standard out the book simple dli splits down the screen which was the common basic enhancement that they would bother to use and unfortunately was about as far as things were usually done to enhance the games particularly in those later years of budget releases. It does appear that they used some players in the panel at least.I'm not a big games player at all but I seem to recall that the game was pretty stiff and slow however. EDIT* I've had a brief look at the c64 now, the graphics do seem to be converted from one or the other, staring at some chars to see that the definition is pixel by pixel the same. You are certainly right about the choice of colour on the Atari version though on that level, the yellow usage is bad choices, a crime really with the palette selection available. I guess it was a quick conversion of the c64 game made without too much care and attention. I seem to remember reading that the Zeppelin guys would spend a maximum of one month work on each 8-bit title back then, I assume they meant all the platforms. EDIT again* actually I think the colour choices were not so bad on the A8 version now I've downloaded it. I guess the Atarimania site takes it's screen shots with an emulator with strange palette settings. Edited September 15, 2009 by Tezz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tezz Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 (edited) Here's the screen shot from A8Win+ below Edited September 15, 2009 by Tezz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.atarimania.com Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 (edited) I'll check what the settings were for this game. The palette we use has some of the parameters adjusted but the screenshots are usually extremely faithful to what I can see on my PAL computer. -- Atari Frog http://www.atarimania.com Edited September 15, 2009 by www.atarimania.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 ..... Well, it doesn't work that way. If you are using an audio IRQ and get a latency of 40+ cycles on one IRQ and around 0 cycles on the next that's worse than getting 17 cycles vs. 0 cycles. It's the delta that makes the difference. After some heavy calculation (using OpenOffice Calc ) I came to this: With simple multicolor (4 colors 160x200) screen: If you make routine that plays one sample every 90 cpu cycles (10920 Hz) and set them up on special offset compared to beginning of first bad line you get this: Sample playback falls onto 22th cycle in a bad line on 58,98,138,178 and 218 scanline (that is 5 samples that can not be played properly - or could be played with offset of 18 cycles). Sample playback falls onto 40th or 58th cycle in a bad line on 66,82,106,122,146,162,186,202,226 and 242 scanline (those are 10 samples that must be played on a badline, but there is enough time for that.) All the remaining sample playing points fall either outside screen area or not on a badline... So you get only 5x50 samples not played (or played later - in that case maybe an average of that sample and the next one could be played to minimize difference (but I think SID chip would make that transition smooth)) wich is 1 in 43 samples wrong.... I think it wouldn't be easy to notice... Even then a test could be done easily. ... I have already done tests with this-- just playback audio in Atari text mode Gr.0 (which has bad lines) and the audio sounds worse. However, to look at it logically-- 11025 Hz means ideally a sample played every 90 microseconds. Anything that deviates more from that makes things worse. In case of sprite layer: 40 samples wouldn't be able to play (and that is with offset 18 or 9 cycles equally). That is 8 times more wrong points in time = 8 in 43 samples wrong... It would be at least 8 times more noticeable .... Again.. test could prove it true or false... Again, Im not in favor of sprite layer because of smaller size of picture that you can achieve... Wouldn't sprite layer be 192*200 by taking 24*21 sprites and zooming them 2X in x-direction? I would much rather prefer using a graphics mode without badlines so no need to multiplex the sprites. I think "ANTI-FLI" would work-- disable the badline within audio interrupt right before it's about to occur. That may cause repeat of a scanline or glitched scanline? I can live with that and have clear audio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 ... EDIT again* actually I think the colour choices were not so bad on the A8 version now I've downloaded it. I guess the Atarimania site takes it's screen shots with an emulator with strange palette settings. Also, you get blockier graphics if you take a screen shot from emulator. Even Atari super hi-res of 384*240 is extremely low res. for Windows and does look blocky if not connected to NTSC/PAL video monitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 The graphics were ok on Ninja Commando, I've never compared the two but back then I assumed that they were taken from the c64 version. I don't know which came first though. Since it's a Kevin Franklin/Michael Owens game on the C64, i'd guess that was the first version. The colour usuage is only the bog standard out the book simple dli splits down the screen which was the common basic enhancement that they would bother to use and unfortunately was about as far as things were usually done to enhance the games particularly in those later years of budget releases. In this particular case i reckon it just takes the lead from the C64 version which does the same thing, a couple of three colour areas with with raster splits between them and a few sprites on the status bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Wouldn't sprite layer be 192*200 by taking 24*21 sprites and zooming them 2X in x-direction? Well, 160x210 visible or 231 with an eleventh row, the upper and lower borders will be disabled by the Hyperscreen but the side borders will still be on. I think "ANTI-FLI" would work-- disable the badline within audio interrupt right before it's about to occur. That may cause repeat of a scanline or glitched scanline? Anti-FLI (i've always called it reverse FLI because it's essentially what's on the left of the three $ff bytes a FLI produces) causes the character line to repeat (rather than the scanline) but you'll need to let at least one badline happen if memory serves; that repeat can be used for a three colour bitmap's colour RAM, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Here's the screen shot from A8Win+ below Looks good, but someone will claim it's 3 bands of monochrome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 And you feel that makes you different in some way compared to how most of the A8 and C64 programmers here got their start? It's not what I think or feel... Even the ones who were at some point paid for their work weren't rolling in money and needed a full time job (or were still at school) as well and that's particularly true of anyone working on budget software because those tended to pay a single lump sum on completion; it wasn't more than a couple of thousand pounds at best and had to be divided amongst the people who did the work. Perhaps you talk about people you know personally. And I can imagine that the director of EA still is earning some bucks and the whole concern is losing money every day It's a clear thing that there was no guarantee for making huge amounts of money. But, to use the computer that has the biggest selling counts, could be a good base to make money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Here's the screen shot from A8Win+ below Looks good, but someone will claim it's 3 bands of monochrome. Because it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 ... Wouldn't sprite layer be 192*200 by taking 24*21 sprites and zooming them 2X in x-direction? I would much rather prefer using a graphics mode without badlines so no need to multiplex the sprites. I think "ANTI-FLI" would work-- disable the badline within audio interrupt right before it's about to occur. That may cause repeat of a scanline or glitched scanline? I can live with that and have clear audio. If you want 4 colors you have to use multicolor mode for sprites -> sprite=12x21. Double expanded in X, you need 7 sprites to cover 40+(2 extra) chars... And you need 10 rows of those... Multiplexing (repeating them after 21 line and changing pointers) is not a problem as someone said before... 1 LDA, 7 STA for 7 coordinate changes, and 1 LDA, 1 STA for changing screen address (wich changes all 8 sprite address pointers). You have similar resolution as on Atari (80x210) but its only 4 colors... Is 4 colors enough ? Even if you avoid badlines you still have those 15-16 cpu cycles stolen by Sprite data and pointer fetch at the right side of scanline in every line... Don't know enough about what happens in reverse fli effect.. have to check it out... It is sure easier on A8 to make an area on screen without any cpu cycles stolen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analmux Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 It is sure easier on A8 to make an area on screen without any cpu cycles stolen When screen is blank, yes OK, just doing graphics 8+16 or 15+16 in basic, will give a screen without any badlines. PM only takes 5 cycles extra every scanline. The bad part is the left part of each scanline, as there we have the 9 DRAM refresh cycles. Then in the worst case the (timer) IRQ will start to execute 5 cycles later than it would without DMA or refresh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 It is sure easier on A8 to make an area on screen without any cpu cycles stolen When screen is blank, yes OK, just doing graphics 8+16 or 15+16 in basic, will give a screen without any badlines. PM only takes 5 cycles extra every scanline. The bad part is the left part of each scanline, as there we have the 9 DRAM refresh cycles. Then in the worst case the (timer) IRQ will start to execute 5 cycles later than it would without DMA or refresh. Guess why this demo is scrolling LPF.zip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 And you feel that makes you different in some way compared to how most of the A8 and C64 programmers here got their start? It's not what I think or feel... That's how you come across; it's as though you believe you've got some God-given right to slap about other people's work without them getting the right of reply, so if it isn't your deprived background what is it that grants you these super powers? If i make a comment about something being easy or difficult it's usually because i've ether tried doing either it or something similar but when you do it (usually whilst insulting people in the process) what informs that opinion to the point where it was worth stating? Perhaps you talk about people you know personally. And I can imagine that the director of EA still is earning some bucks and the whole concern is losing money every day No, i'm quite obviously talking about programmers, artists, musicians and the people at the "making games" end of the scale, so stop trying to drag the topic in an irrelevant direction by talking about those on the "lets make money selling this stuff" side of things; those people have close to bugger all to do with anything we're discussing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMR Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 (edited) Here's the screen shot from A8Win+ below Looks good, but someone will claim it's 3 bands of monochrome. That's okay, so is the original pretty much so it's no major surprise... Edited September 15, 2009 by TMR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym00 Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 (edited) Can I just ask the Atari brigade for their opinion of what the absolute absolute *BEST* use of players/missiles, sprites, backgrounds and colours in a game is ??? I'm really curious what's considered to be the absolute state of the art technically, the cream of the crop so to speak.. That runs at 50/60hz.. A real game engine.. I'm not being funny or taking the piss, but I'm curious to know where the technical bar is set on the A8.. And I'm not on about 3D nonsense and such like, so no bloody RoF, please We all know it's faster as are most 3D contraptions on the Atari Edited September 15, 2009 by andym00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 ... Wouldn't sprite layer be 192*200 by taking 24*21 sprites and zooming them 2X in x-direction? I would much rather prefer using a graphics mode without badlines so no need to multiplex the sprites. I think "ANTI-FLI" would work-- disable the badline within audio interrupt right before it's about to occur. That may cause repeat of a scanline or glitched scanline? I can live with that and have clear audio. If you want 4 colors you have to use multicolor mode for sprites -> sprite=12x21. Double expanded in X, you need 7 sprites to cover 40+(2 extra) chars... And you need 10 rows of those... Multiplexing (repeating them after 21 line and changing pointers) is not a problem as someone said before... 1 LDA, 7 STA for 7 coordinate changes, and 1 LDA, 1 STA for changing screen address (wich changes all 8 sprite address pointers). You have similar resolution as on Atari (80x210) but its only 4 colors... Is 4 colors enough ? Even if you avoid badlines you still have those 15-16 cpu cycles stolen by Sprite data and pointer fetch at the right side of scanline in every line... Don't know enough about what happens in reverse fli effect.. have to check it out... It is sure easier on A8 to make an area on screen without any cpu cycles stolen There are two types of images coming in from joystick port-- Text that's been converted to images because of multiple types of fonts used by PC software and images (true-color) that have have been converted to 16-gray for GTIA mode. So for the text part, 4 colors is fine as the text is basically two colors (white on blue or whatever) but chapter headings, subtitles are green or yellow. But you know which type of image it is so you can adjust the colors accordingly. I just made up that remark about "Anti-FLI"; I didn't know there was actually such a thing, but just was portraying the idea of skipping over badlines rather than having more of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Wouldn't sprite layer be 192*200 by taking 24*21 sprites and zooming them 2X in x-direction? Well, 160x210 visible or 231 with an eleventh row, the upper and lower borders will be disabled by the Hyperscreen but the side borders will still be on. I think "ANTI-FLI" would work-- disable the badline within audio interrupt right before it's about to occur. That may cause repeat of a scanline or glitched scanline? Anti-FLI (i've always called it reverse FLI because it's essentially what's on the left of the three $ff bytes a FLI produces) causes the character line to repeat (rather than the scanline) but you'll need to let at least one badline happen if memory serves; that repeat can be used for a three colour bitmap's colour RAM, though. 160*200 is fine. Okay, let's allow for one badline, so then can I write some code as part of Audio IRQ to prevent the other bad lines? Perhaps, check the raster line # at $D011 and write something to prevent upcoming badline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteD Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 Here's the screen shot from A8Win+ below Looks good, but someone will claim it's 3 bands of monochrome. And if you don't bite but just ignore the comment, no senseless arguments will start As has been gone over again and again in this thread it's really what you're used to, if one way is better than another is subjective but to us C64 users even that splash of different colour on the screen is such a change from a LOT of A8 games that it stands out. There's really no reason to use 4 shades of the same colour and I still can't see why so many A8 games do it apart from some crazy artists/coders somewhere think it's better. Nothing in nature (and pretty much nothing unnatural) is shades of the same colour. Rocks, trees, water, flowers, etc so when you're limited to such a small number on screen and such a relatively large choice WHY 4 the same? The C64 palette may make for some weird combinations when trying to shade stuff but at least it looks more natural in the fact that there are more variations. Whether you prefer it or not is up to you. What's insane is the people who blindly (no pun intended) defend it just so they can say their machine is better, and no I'm not pointing fingers before someone takes it as a personal attack. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 It is sure easier on A8 to make an area on screen without any cpu cycles stolen When screen is blank, yes OK, just doing graphics 8+16 or 15+16 in basic, will give a screen without any badlines. PM only takes 5 cycles extra every scanline. The bad part is the left part of each scanline, as there we have the 9 DRAM refresh cycles. Then in the worst case the (timer) IRQ will start to execute 5 cycles later than it would without DMA or refresh. There are two issues with DMA cycles that favor Atari in that 40+ consecutive DMA cycles on C64 is actually equivalent to 72+ consecutive DMA cycles on Atari (1.79X). And Atari spreads out the DMA cycles so the IRQ gets serviced in between the DMA cycles and the delay is almost always there so it's not like some samples get a big delay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockford Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 (edited) 16 - WEST BANK (BANK PANIC)/ BANK BANG ! C64 (it's unofficial release, so maybe STE could tell us more about it ) C64 C64 The C64 version has better music, graphics, handling and more colours. The Atari version is poor and awkward (when you want to change a door, often you kill somebody by accident). On Atari there also aren't any gun duels after finished levels. C64 shot Atari again. ATARI ATARI ATARI Edited September 15, 2009 by Rockford 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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