Atari v Commodore

[PeteD]

Now you've done it. Here's me posting about using more than 4 shades of the same colour then you post something that does it and it looks like a disaster

 

I honestly can only think that title screen errored or something when loading.

 

 

Pete

[Rockford]

Now you've done it. Here's me posting about using more than 4 shades of the same colour then you post something that does it and it looks like a disaster

 

I honestly can only think that title screen errored or something when loading.

 

 

Pete

Sorry Pete, my fault I've fixed it

[PeteD]

Much better

 

 

Pete

[Tezz]

There's really no reason to use 4 shades of the same colour and I still can't see why so many A8 games do it apart from some crazy artists/coders somewhere think it's better. Nothing in nature (and pretty much nothing unnatural) is shades of the same colour. Rocks, trees, water, flowers, etc so when you're limited to such a small number on screen and such a relatively large choice WHY 4 the same? The C64 palette may make for some weird combinations when trying to shade stuff but at least it looks more natural in the fact that there are more variations. Whether you prefer it or not is up to you. What's insane is the people who blindly (no pun intended) defend it just so they can say their machine is better, and no I'm not pointing fingers before someone takes it as a personal attack.

 

Pete

I can agree with that, there's way too many games with dreadful use of colour on the A8 which there was just no need for (Not all I hasten to add, but there are a lot of these poor examples). It's one of the many frustrations along side the underuse of the machine as a whole. The use of 4/5 shades of the same colours appearing so often in A8 games I've always assumed is because of the fact that more shades of a colour provides more depth to the graphics. Just as you would do on a higher platform for example with more colours available, you'd have for instance 3-4 shades of grey for a rock and some primary colours for other objects in the game etc. so you have a nice spread of colours and depth in the game. However it seems that many artists have not apreciated on the A8 that unless you have more colours to use along side the shades, it's pointless to ever do it because it just all looks mono. It's very common I belive because artists find 4/5 colours restrictive to create graphics with depth and the option of depth of shades and dli splits was preferable.

 

The silly arguments here regarding the colour use on the c64 coming back from these discussions about these mono A8 embarassments that the recent c64 visitors are having fun pointing out are mainly from the fact that the c64 with it's restricted fixed palette had less choice in the matter of shading whereas we have (in the world of 8-bits) choices a plenty in comparison. However that all goes moreso to illustrate clearly there has been a historical lack of good use of colour on the A8 and also the fact that with good artistic skill the use of colours regardless of the c64's fixed palette shows that there can be a more effective solution to overcome graphical limitations.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Tezz

[atariksi]

Can I just ask the Atari brigade for their opinion of what the absolute absolute *BEST* use of players/missiles, sprites, backgrounds and colours in a game is ???

 

I'm really curious what's considered to be the absolute state of the art technically, the cream of the crop so to speak.. That runs at 50/60hz.. A real game engine..

 

I'm not being funny or taking the piss, but I'm curious to know where the technical bar is set on the A8..

And I'm not on about 3D nonsense and such like, so no bloody RoF, please We all know it's faster as are most 3D contraptions on the Atari

 

I doubt there are many people who have every game ever made or tried every game ever made on A8, but there aren't any games I have seen that employ GPRIOR mode 0 or GTIA modes or mixture of both. I have seen these features employed in non-game scenarios.

[Heaven/TQA]

16 - WEST BANK (BANK PANIC)/ BANK BANG !

 

C64 (it's unofficial release, so maybe STE could tell us more about it )

C64

C64

 

The C64 version has better music, graphics, handling and more colours. The Atari version is poor and awkward (when you want to change a door, often you kill somebody by accident). On Atari there also aren't any gun duels after finished levels. C64 shot Atari again.

 

ATARI

ATARI

ATARI

 

 

 

Bank Panic is one of the games which could be enhanced via DLI plus PMs? so...this game is a perfect candidate for a Bank Panic+ version... ?

Edited September 15, 2009 by Heaven/TQA

[Heaven/TQA]

Now you've done it. Here's me posting about using more than 4 shades of the same colour then you post something that does it and it looks like a disaster

 

I honestly can only think that title screen errored or something when loading.

 

 

Pete

 

 

maybe polish coders only had monochrome monitors??? but not in 90s?

[PeteD]

16 - WEST BANK (BANK PANIC)/ BANK BANG !

 

C64 (it's unofficial release, so maybe STE could tell us more about it )

C64

C64

 

The C64 version has better music, graphics, handling and more colours. The Atari version is poor and awkward (when you want to change a door, often you kill somebody by accident). On Atari there also aren't any gun duels after finished levels. C64 shot Atari again.

 

ATARI

ATARI

ATARI

 

 

 

Bank Panic is one of the games which could be enhanced via DLI plus PMs? so...this game is a perfect candidate for a Bank Panic+ version... ?

 

I've just been looking at it and you can make it as colourful as the C64 using 5 colour mode and some DLIs. Don't even really need PMGs to add extra background colour, just for the blood, gunshots etc but to make it even more exact you could.

 

 

Pete

[PeteD]

Now you've done it. Here's me posting about using more than 4 shades of the same colour then you post something that does it and it looks like a disaster

 

I honestly can only think that title screen errored or something when loading.

 

 

Pete

 

 

maybe polish coders only had monochrome monitors??? but not in 90s?

 

I think I remember Paul 'Dokk' Docherty telling me once he only had a black and white TV and just a picture of the C64 palette to work from and he did some ok stuff

 

 

Pete

[Goochman]

 

I've just been looking at it and you can make it as colourful as the C64 using 5 colour mode and some DLIs. Don't even really need PMGs to add extra background colour, just for the blood, gunshots etc but to make it even more exact you could.

 

 

Pete

 

I think the A8 Borg has assimilated Pete

[PeteD]

 

I've just been looking at it and you can make it as colourful as the C64 using 5 colour mode and some DLIs. Don't even really need PMGs to add extra background colour, just for the blood, gunshots etc but to make it even more exact you could.

 

 

Pete

 

I think the A8 Borg has assimilated Pete

 

lol I was assimilated before I joined here I think and certainly since joining I spend a lot of time looking at C64 games and going WHY?! why is there either no A8 version or when there is why is it so badly done. I've come up with a couple of educated guesses for that, mostly being it just wasn't worth the effort especially post 86-87. As far as some of these games go I'd be ashamed to put my name to them. West Bank is SO easy to add more colour to just with some DLIs that it would've taken maybe an hour to plan and 10 mins to code. Just strikes me as a shame.

 

 

Pete

[Tezz]

I feel the need to enhance and patch many of these titles to set the record straight however I would guess that it would be preferable to most Atarians for creative energies to go into new titles and also into bringing missing games over to the A8. Hopefully as an ideal, something in all those areas will come about over time.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Tezz

[Heaven/TQA]

Tezz...you want me to finish Beyond Evil??? It will be more like Duke Nukem...

[TMR]

I think I remember Paul 'Dokk' Docherty telling me once he only had a black and white TV and just a picture of the C64 palette to work from and he did some ok stuff

 

i heard a similar story about Rob Whittaker once, apparently "Howie T" was done on a black and white telly...?

 

i've been thinking for quite a while about colours and one of the things i reckon might be the cause of these monochrome graphics is that if you start out with three shades of, say, green it's difficult to get anywhere else from there; if you have three shades of blue on part of the screen, it looks quite nice because, well, it's three shades of blue - but if you want some green further down how do you get there? Change one of the blues for a green and ruin that nice fade? Suddenly change all three colours for a large and rather obvious transition (like Ninja Commando does, but to my mind that gets away with it)? Ironically, the "solution" i came up with which i really must implement at some point technically uses less actual colours...!

[TMR]

I feel the need to enhance and patch many of these titles to set the record straight however I would guess that it would be preferable to most Atarians for creative energies to go into new titles and also into bringing missing games over to the A8.

 

If you want to do that, go for it.

[Tezz]

Tezz...you want me to finish Beyond Evil??? It will be more like Duke Nukem...

absolutely yes how is it going now? I recall the latest stage you were thinking about different approaches to the implementation.

[STE'86]

i think i disagree with Pete on this one. i wouldnt bother to waste life converting west bank to colour. not because it cant be done but because its utter drivel

 

let me tell u that the 64 version was never released as a full price game it was a "right to budget" job on a compilation.

 

its nice to consider how to go about it but then u must consider WHY to go about it

 

personally, if i were so inclined to be writing a8 stuff, i would be looking at ninja commando and thinking... ghosts & goblins? or something similar?

 

steve

Edited September 15, 2009 by STE'86

[+wood_jl]

Test message!

 

I have been subscribed to this thread for a long time. Enjoyed engaging in and observing heated arguements. What the hell happened? Does AtariAge suddenly "unsubscribe" you from a thread? I hadn't received a notification in so long, I assumed the thread was dead. Also, been busy with summer. It's been weeks - no months - since I've been here though.

 

However, I'd have been here to check the heated replies if I'd been notified...maybe.

 

All I see are new faces in the thread! Is this "Atari vs. Commodore: The Next Generation"? Who'll play Data, and what happened to Mr. Spock?

[PeteD]

I think I remember Paul 'Dokk' Docherty telling me once he only had a black and white TV and just a picture of the C64 palette to work from and he did some ok stuff

 

i heard a similar story about Rob Whittaker once, apparently "Howie T" was done on a black and white telly...?

 

i've been thinking for quite a while about colours and one of the things i reckon might be the cause of these monochrome graphics is that if you start out with three shades of, say, green it's difficult to get anywhere else from there; if you have three shades of blue on part of the screen, it looks quite nice because, well, it's three shades of blue - but if you want some green further down how do you get there? Change one of the blues for a green and ruin that nice fade? Suddenly change all three colours for a large and rather obvious transition (like Ninja Commando does, but to my mind that gets away with it)? Ironically, the "solution" i came up with which i really must implement at some point technically uses less actual colours...!

 

That's the whole thing though, the C64 artists seem able to take a bunch of funky colours and turn them into anything I wouldn't (and I don't think they would) ever use 3 shades of blue for something, you'd use blue, light grey, black or 2 blues and a grey, something like that. As long as you've got reasonably neutral colours for highlights/lowlights/shading/shadows then the "main" colour is the one you change. ala C64 sprites 2 fixed colours, transparent and a distinctive colour.

 

 

Pete

[atariksi]

Test message!

 

I have been subscribed to this thread for a long time. Enjoyed engaging in and observing heated arguements. What the hell happened? Does AtariAge suddenly "unsubscribe" you from a thread? I hadn't received a notification in so long, I assumed the thread was dead. Also, been busy with summer. It's been weeks - no months - since I've been here though.

 

However, I'd have been here to check the heated replies if I'd been notified...maybe.

 

All I see are new faces in the thread! Is this "Atari vs. Commodore: The Next Generation"? Who'll play Data, and what happened to Mr. Spock?

 

Atariage changed its software, but I never got any notifications even before-- I think you have to specifically enable it. New theme of the thread is "Atari vs. Commodore: do the opposite of original poster's request":

 

Does anybody have any views on where any titles were launched on both Atari and Commodore - and the Atari version is the better of the two?

 

Steve

[TMR]

That's the whole thing though, the C64 artists seem able to take a bunch of funky colours and turn them into anything I wouldn't (and I don't think they would) ever use 3 shades of blue for something, you'd use blue, light grey, black or 2 blues and a grey, something like that.

 

Which brings us back to Ste's question... where were all the A8 artists in the 1980's...? emkay's money thing is just bunk, surely there were some people around?!

 

As long as you've got reasonably neutral colours for highlights/lowlights/shading/shadows then the "main" colour is the one you change. ala C64 sprites 2 fixed colours, transparent and a distinctive colour.

 

Well, that's basically what i was indending (and already sort of did with Reaxion); light grey and dark grey for high and low lights, then a range of colours from player underlays and the two possible %11 colours in character mode. Red Max does something similar, light grey as a highlight and a medium grey on the fixed colours (becoming brown on the third stage), black as a low light and shades of blue, yellow or green on %11.

[TMR]

Test message!

 

I have been subscribed to this thread for a long time. Enjoyed engaging in and observing heated arguements. What the hell happened? Does AtariAge suddenly "unsubscribe" you from a thread? I hadn't received a notification in so long, I assumed the thread was dead. Also, been busy with summer. It's been weeks - no months - since I've been here though.

 

However, I'd have been here to check the heated replies if I'd been notified...maybe.

 

All I see are new faces in the thread! Is this "Atari vs. Commodore: The Next Generation"? Who'll play Data, and what happened to Mr. Spock?

 

Atariage changed its software, but I never got any notifications even before-- I think you have to specifically enable it. New theme of the thread is "Atari vs. Commodore: do the opposite of original poster's request":

 

Nah, it veered off that topic on page 1 when Godzilla said "I think the Atari was a much more powerful computer but just didn't have the level of development that the c=64 got" - don't blame the C64 bunnies, we were playing nicely until then! Now it's just "compare stuff maybe, talk about other stuff and... stuff", i reckon it's happier that way...

[atariksi]

Test message!

 

I have been subscribed to this thread for a long time. Enjoyed engaging in and observing heated arguements. What the hell happened? Does AtariAge suddenly "unsubscribe" you from a thread? I hadn't received a notification in so long, I assumed the thread was dead. Also, been busy with summer. It's been weeks - no months - since I've been here though.

 

However, I'd have been here to check the heated replies if I'd been notified...maybe.

 

All I see are new faces in the thread! Is this "Atari vs. Commodore: The Next Generation"? Who'll play Data, and what happened to Mr. Spock?

 

Atariage changed its software, but I never got any notifications even before-- I think you have to specifically enable it. New theme of the thread is "Atari vs. Commodore: do the opposite of original poster's request":

 

Nah, it veered off that topic on page 1 when Godzilla said "I think the Atari was a much more powerful computer but just didn't have the level of development that the c=64 got" - don't blame the C64 bunnies, we were playing nicely until then! Now it's just "compare stuff maybe, talk about other stuff and... stuff", i reckon it's happier that way...

 

There's a difference between DOING THE OPPOSITE OF THE ORIGINAL POSTER and doing things that are technical features of both machines. If someone tells you to get some milk and you go talk about cows and how they generate milk that's not as bad as force feeding him water.

[Bryan]

Which brings us back to Ste's question... where were all the A8 artists in the 1980's...? emkay's money thing is just bunk, surely there were some people around?!

 

I think the low cost and rapidly expanding user base of the 64 really starting sucking the energy out of other platforms. There were some people doing neat things on the A8, but when the 64 took off I think it spawned a different kind of coder-gamer.

[JCat]

I was in computer retail during the C-64/A8 wars (yup, I'm old) - we use to throw games up on both machines on a regular basis and do comparisons (yeah, plastic zip locks rocked). I was so disappointed when later releases (particularly apple ports), were not taking advantage of the Atari. When Synapse started pumping out games on the 64, I knew it was time to worry. I will say, that I did admire this Star Raiders-like game Synapse released excusively the 64 (forgot the name now). One thing I do remember, was playing games on the 64 always felt "off" - like you were moving a joystick through mud. Not sure if this was mentioned, but wasn't "Pogo Joe" one of those great 64 games that was later ported to A8, and visually, took a nose dive?

 

My first post - so hello to all!